SURVEY - Do FT / mFT users know the difference from "full frame"? Replies wanted!!

Started Apr 26, 2013 | Discussions
Trevor Carpenter
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Re: SURVEY - Do FT / mFT users know the difference from "full frame"? Replies wanted!!
In reply to dinoSnake, Apr 26, 2013

of course we understand and I wouldn't have a current FF camera if you gave it me other than to sell it and it and buy some more m4/3s equipment.

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Great Bustard
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I always love...
In reply to digifan, Apr 26, 2013

digifan wrote:

Great Bustard wrote:

Ergo607 wrote:

That said: there is no such thing as full frame, because by the very definition of it, there is no lens that I know of that uses the whole frame of the sensor (quite rightly so, because it would have severe vignetting.)

Funny you say "because by the very definition of it":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full-frame_digital_SLR

A full-frame digital SLR is a digital single-lens reflex camera (DSLR) fitted with an image sensor that is the same size as a 35 mm (36×24 mm) film frame

Funny you quote wikipedia which is a source of knowledge but is maintained also by many laymen. You can even add info yourself, it's more a democratic knowledge base then exact science.

Full Frame is when the system and lenses are designed for it's dedicated purpose. So technically Nikon 1 and dedicated lenses is full frame, Pentax Q is full frame, (m)43 is full frame, APS-C with EF-S/DX lenses is full frame, 35mm is full frame with EF etc. lenses etc. etc. etc.

...when people cite themselves as a "greater authority" than Wikipedia.

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agentul
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Re: SURVEY - Do FT / mFT users know the difference from "full frame"? Replies wanted!!
In reply to GeorgianBay1939, Apr 26, 2013

sir, that arrow thing is awesome. bravo!

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JoeVC
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Re: SURVEY - Do FT / mFT users know the difference from "full frame"? Replies wanted!!
In reply to dinoSnake, Apr 26, 2013

To me, "full frame" is my Fujinon 135-5.6 lens on a 4"x5" view camera. So, yes, I know the difference.

I wanted micro-4/3 because it represents an ideal format size that balances the requirements of image quality with intrinsically wide enough DOF to permit quick shooting in public places while maintaining a compact and lightweight form-factor, at an attractive price point, with the ergonomic and EVF advantage of mirrorless, combined with a good selection of lenses.

I bought into the format early, in December of 2008, with the G1, which is still a great camera when used in competent hands, and has now been augmented by the G5.

~Joe

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Great Bustard
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Absolutely.
In reply to Mr.NoFlash, Apr 26, 2013

Mr.NoFlash wrote:

There are so many parameters like Aperture and number of Lenses, IBIS, Antidust, Sensor manufacturer, processing, AF Accuracy, AF speed, Flash system, sensor size, Viewfinder, lens quality variance, lens performance wide open, color quality, # of manufacturers, dynamic range ( one shot and support for bracketing HDR ).

I definitively know that people who reduce the performance of a system to only one parameter are either stupid or trolls.

Perfectly said.

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Kikl
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Re: SURVEY - Do FT / mFT users know the difference from "full frame"? Replies wanted!!
In reply to dinoSnake, Apr 26, 2013

So, is this true?

Yes, every format is a compromise, even FF.

Using FT / mFT users as a test, do you understand "the impact of sensor size on image quality"?

Yes. Compare the images from different cameras and sensors here on dpreview and you can assess the differences in image quality.

What was your knowledge of this topic at the time you made your purchase decision of the cameras you are now using?

My knowledge was good.

How did your purchase decision go in regards to this?

My conclusion was that M43 is good enough for me.

Please post your replies and thoughts on this topic, I could use feedback urgently.

Thank you!

You're welcome!

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marike6
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In reply to Ergo607, Apr 26, 2013

Ergo607 wrote:

Lay it to rest. There is no way you can win this dissuasion, and frankly I don't come to this forum to read about this silly discussions.

This I agree with 100%.

If you want my short answer: I knew about the strengths (!) and weaknesses of the MFT format.

Like any camera system m43 has strengths and weaknesses just like APS-C, FF, and MF.

If you want the long answer: I am a salesperson, and by definition 90% of the people don't have a clue what they are buying into. More so if they are C*n*n or N$k$n users. Because it takes courage to buy into a system that is less popular, you will find more informed people in the FT/MFT world. That said: there is no such thing as full frame, because by the very definition of it, there is no lens that I know of that uses the whole frame of the sensor (quite rightly so, because it would have severe vignetting.) Probably the least informed people buy 135mm format anyway, because they have the money, don't know what the are buying, but because they can and because they want to show off they buy a 135mm format camera. Sth like most people who buy an iPhone: they don't know sh*t what it can do, but they buy it to stand out in the crowd...

So all the professionals and advanced amateurs who shoot FF don't know anything about the photographic gear they are purchasing?  You cannot honestly believe that.  All the FF users I know, the wedding photographers, nature shooters, landscape photographers, portraitist, who use FF do so to leverage the tangible performance gains in IQ, and the unparalleled lens selections from the widest of the wide angle lenses to the longest super telephotos.  Let's face it, there are only two complete SLR systems in all of photography that offer every kind of lens - fisheyes, UWA, fast wide primes, f2.8 normal zooms, tilt-shift lenses, macro lenses in 3 focal lengths - 50, 100, 200 - pro grade telephoto zooms, pro-grade super telephotos, matching teleconverters, extension rings, wireless flash systems, etc.

And those two camera systems are Canon EF and Nikon F.  They are popular, not because their users don't know any better, but because they offer complete camera systems to a great extent than any other camera company in the world.  This is a fact.  They are popular because they offer so much at exceedingly high quality.  It's a simple as that.  If it makes people feel better to characterize their users as "stupid" or "clueless", then so be it.  But you are kidding yourselves.

I use some m43 gear (and also own a FF DSLR) and I like it very much, but for the life of my I cannot understand these almost daily kinds of "let's prove our worth by trashing FF users as stupid" or "we don't need no stinkin" shallow DOF" threads are becoming irritatingly redundant and they actually seem to show a lack of confidence than anything else.

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Jon Stock
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Yes. Subject was beaten to death before I bought my E-500.
In reply to dinoSnake, Apr 26, 2013

It was beaten to death before Joemama was banned the first time.

The only reason to post in the daily equivalence threads is to push them toward 150 sooner.

Name one famous professional photographer from any time period who specialized in really shallow DOF.

The endless pictures posted of a closeup of a meaningless object (for example - a rusty nail in a plank of wood) with really shallow of field is as gimmicky as neon colored HDR.

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Guy Parsons
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OT, backups ..... Jeff......
In reply to Jeff Tokayer, Apr 26, 2013

Jeff Tokayer wrote:

Back to forums (or seeing that we have gone all Latin - fora), sure beats doing anything useful. Currently wasting time on the 'net because this notebook is doing a horrendously long backup to  my NAS, yikes, another 23 hours to go.

Are you doing a wi-fi backup? I did that once and it took 3 days. My subsequent full backup, using a gigabit network, took only 6 hours.

Um, yes indeed, it is WiFi as I'm too lazy to drag the cable from behind the TV over to the coffee table. Hey, it gives me something to complain about, and isn't what what forums are all about?

What I do dread is adding more capacity (another 3TB) to the NAS, 4 drives capacity, 3 only at the moment (1TB+1TB+3TB). The restriping seems to take forever. And later I want to replace the two 1 TB drives with 3 or 4 TB drives, oh boy, that will takes many days to sort itself out.

Regards..... Guy

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RealPancho
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Yes and no (or is it no and yes?)
In reply to dinoSnake, Apr 26, 2013

When we were in Yosemite NP last summer, I noticed an army of vacationers carrying these gargantuan Canon and Nikon monstrosities around. I thought, "good god, is there some benefit here that I'm unaware of? Those things are HUGE!"

When we got back home, I knew that I was ready for an upgrade, but the idea of carrying around something the size of a phone booth was most distasteful. Fortunately, there is one real camera store left in town, and after a visit there, I went home with an E-M5. I was told that if I was unsatisfied in any way, I could bring it back for a full refund. They must have been pretty confident. I still have it, and you'd just about have to pry it out of my rigor mortis induced grip to get it away from me.

So no, I didn't know specifics, but I did know that there were higher MP counts and better cameras in the world (Hasselblad, anyone?), but I knew after a few days with my E-M5 that the cost in dollars, size, and weight were not worth even considering. Admittedly, I wound up spending a pretty fair amount on the kit I've assembled, but the equivalent in "full frame" would have cost even more.

I've learned more about today's market since then, but if I had to make the decision all over again, the only change I might consider is taking the silver body over the black one.

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Detail Man
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Re: The Downing Survey ...
In reply to dinoSnake, Apr 26, 2013

dinoSnake wrote:

Detail Man wrote:

Guy Parsons wrote:

Detail Man wrote:

dinoSnake wrote:

Please post your replies and thoughts on this topic, I could use feedback urgently.

Thank you!

Pathetic ploy.

Hi DM,

I think it's all about getting feedback info to get into an argument with Joe. No point in doing that as Joe will win. Looks a bit hit and run though at this stage, doesn't it?

DigiMatt summed up the medicine show many posts ago on an active Open Talk Forum thread where the OP continues to have every opportunity to attempt to reply directly to DigiMatt's post found here: http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51357625

And yet, the point is I DON'T often respond.  I make up only a small number of replies to the threads on these topics, and will continue to do so.  I certainly DON'T feel that I must constantly have the last word, but I certainly DO want to hear others opinions...as well as letting THEM have "the last word".

If the truth was otherwise, I'd be replying constantly to this thread.  The POINT of this thread was to let YOU - yes, YOU - say your minds about this topic.  Notice that I did NOT open the conversation with a statement of *my* personal thoughts?  And that I (tried) to word the question in a objective manner?

The posts here speak for themselves as to the topic of discussion.  What more can I / would I be able to add?  Nothing, thank you, so I'm shutting up.  When I constructed this topic I intended NOT post my personal thoughts on the subject inside this thread, and that's the way I intend to keep it.  It is all about YOU.

So keep posting guys (and gals), your own words will say it all.

That you at this point have little or nothing to say for yourself does not come as a surprise ...

Bear in mind this sobering clue surrounding how people judge their own "IQ":

One of the main effects of illusory superiority in IQ is the Downing effect. This describes the tendency of people with a below average IQ to overestimate their IQ, and of people with an above average IQ to underestimate their IQ .

Also bear in mind this sobering clue surrounding how people judge other people's "IQ":

His studies also evidenced that the ability to accurately estimate others' IQ was proportional to one's own IQ. This means that the lower the IQ of an individual, the less capable they are of appreciating and accurately appraising others' IQ. Therefore individuals with a lower IQ are more likely to rate themselves as having a higher IQ than those around them. Conversely, people with a higher IQ, while better at appraising others' IQ overall, are still likely to rate people of similar IQ as themselves as having higher IQs .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illusory_superiority#IQ

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Greynerd
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Re: Replies wanted !!
In reply to dinoSnake, Apr 26, 2013

The only point I can see is that there was never any point to this thread.

dinoSnake wrote:

Detail Man wrote:

Guy Parsons wrote:

Detail Man wrote:

dinoSnake wrote:

Please post your replies and thoughts on this topic, I could use feedback urgently.

Thank you!

Pathetic ploy.

Hi DM,

I think it's all about getting feedback info to get into an argument with Joe. No point in doing that as Joe will win. Looks a bit hit and run though at this stage, doesn't it?

DigiMatt summed up the medicine show many posts ago on an active Open Talk Forum thread where the OP continues to have every opportunity to attempt to reply directly to DigiMatt's post found here: http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51357625

And yet, the point is I DON'T often respond.  I make up only a small number of replies to the threads on these topics, and will continue to do so.  I certainly DON'T feel that I must constantly have the last word, but I certainly DO want to hear others opinions...as well as letting THEM have "the last word".

If the truth was otherwise, I'd be replying constantly to this thread.  The POINT of this thread was to let YOU - yes, YOU - say your minds about this topic.  Notice that I did NOT open the conversation with a statement of *my* personal thoughts?  And that I (tried) to word the question in a objective manner?

The posts here speak for themselves as to the topic of discussion.  What more can I / would I be able to add?  Nothing, thank you, so I'm shutting up.  When I constructed this topic I intended NOT post my personal thoughts on the subject inside this thread, and that's the way I intend to keep it.  It is all about YOU.

So keep posting guys (and gals), your own words will say it all.

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marike6
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Re: Yes. Subject was beaten to death before I bought my E-500.
In reply to Jon Stock, Apr 26, 2013

Jon Stock wrote:

Name one famous professional photographer from any time period who specialized in really shallow DOF.

The endless pictures posted of a closeup of a meaningless object (for example - a rusty nail in a plank of wood) with really shallow of field is as gimmicky as neon colored HDR.

There are tons of cliche images in ALL formats.  That doesn't mean there isn't a huge amount of superb work done with larger format cameras.

Besides, shallow DOF is not the only thing that FF excels at.

How about:

  • UWA lenses and no annoying crop factor
  • Super low S/NR and low-light/high ISO ability, the kind most photojournalists or wedding photographer absolutely require
  • Professional grade super telephoto lenses, 300 f/4, 300 f/2.8, 400 f/2.8
  • Matching Teleconverter for super telephotos
  • Highest possible color depth and DR save for 40,000 MF digital backs 
  • Zero noise in the sky or shadows at base ISO.  (Landscape photographer's dream)
  • Robust AF tracking typically found in FF DSLRs
  • Complete lens systems from fishes, tilt-shift, macros, f1.4 wides, f2.8 standard lenses, f1.4 or faster portrait lenses, 70-200 IS or VR, super teles
  • Modest f2.8 max aperture lenses provide very good DOF control
  • Large, bright 100% Pentaprism OVFs

It's disingenuous to suggest that shallow DOF is a gimmick that is not needed.  If it were not useful in situations like portraiture to isolate your subject, then we wouldn't see these daily threads with tons of m43 users trying to marginalize shallow DOF.  Me thinks thou doth protest too much.

"We don't need no stinkin' shallow DOF".  If you didn't, then there would be few m43 users purchasing PL 25 1.4, or Voigtlander 25 0.95 in an attempt to at least get some kind of decent DOF control.  Besides there is more to a camera system than shallow DOF or deep DOF, for that matter.

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TrapperJohn
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Not what it once was
In reply to dinoSnake, Apr 26, 2013

Several years ago, there was a big difference between, say, an 8MP E500 and a 10mp 5D.

Today, I was just going over the D7100 review, so I pulled up the comparameter, put in the D7100, 600D, Sony A77, and EM5.

And you know what? There isn't a whole lot of difference between any of them, except for the A77 which was noticably noisier than the rest. The EM5 kept up with the larger sensor, for the most part.

You can say the comparameter isn't accurate, but five years ago, the difference was painfully obvious.

Today... the difference in sensor size, under typical circumstances, is best seen in DOF control. True that the larger sensor not only cuts DOF shallower, but the bokeh tends to be of a softer quality.

Conversely, this becomes an impediment when the focal length grows. Not only is the larger sensor at an AOV disadvantage, that shallow DOF becomes too shallow, forcing the photog to stop down purely to get enough DOF for the shot.

But, other than DOF control and AOV... the 'two stops' performance advantage is becoming irrelevant, as they're all more or less the same in situations that most of us would use them.

I was out shooting moon photos the other night with EM5+Nikkor 400 3.5+TCON301 2x TC, 800mm focal length or 1600mm AOV in FF terms. Almost didn't need to crop the shot, the moon filled over half the frame. But then it occurred to me - I was shooting with the 'equivalent' of a 64mp FF sensor, something you can't get at all today.

So it all comes down to what the individual needs - the much vaunted FF isn't the be-all end-all it was in the early days of digital photography.

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AntnioGM
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When I bought my E1, there where little differences, if any.
In reply to dinoSnake, Apr 26, 2013

I bought my E1 with a perfect knowlege of the new system. It was new, it was good, and it had the  sensational E1.

At that time, I simply didn't like the Canon 300D ( my first venture into DSLR gear). So, I kept using and buying 4/3's gear.

Regrets? None.

But, I still think that Olympus should have perfected the system before micro 4/3's.

António GM.

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SirSeth
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I know the difference.
In reply to dinoSnake, Apr 26, 2013

$2999 - $1299 = $1700  Approx. difference in cost between 5DIII and OM-D with a kit lens just as an example. I think most people just get this.

950g - 425g = 525g  And the OM-D isn't the lightest or smallest mirrorless camera. I also think most people get the size difference.

The difference in IQ is harder to quantify, but the bottom line is that the OM-D is so much better than the 5DIII at being cheaper, lighter, and smaller while still providing fantastic IQ for 95% of shooting situations, that it's hard to disparage.

That said, for tilt-shift--5DIII and Canon in particular is way better. For capturing the milky way in Arches National Park on a cloudless night, the 5DIII spanks the OM-D. And if that's really what you want to do, then of course the FF is better for you. I don't think most people know these things though. Most people don't care. They just want to save a memory in some form and so they use their smart phones because it's easier to load their kid pix to basefook. Also, people who want better pictures, just buy camera with a name badge of Nikon or Canon because they don't really want to learn the pros and cons of formats--they just hope the camera will take better pictures for them, but the tech is intimidating to them, so they fuzz out when people like us start going on about format, diffraction, and equivalence. For most people, they just are not that much of a gear head to care.

Best,

Seth

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cosmoxl
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"full frame" means nothing and is a compromise itself
In reply to dinoSnake, Apr 27, 2013

the 35mm frame you consider full frame is a compromise itself.  why isn't everything medium or large format and so on..??

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talico
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In reply to Brian Wadie, Apr 27, 2013

We had a triumph spitfire.  Loads of fun pushing it home, or to the mechanic.  So much fun when it ran, it made up for the aggravation.  I loved the dash board.  It was an actual piece of wood.  We never found a proper engine, it looked like somebody left a small vacuum cleaner or something under the bonnet.  The other car at the time was a Ford Pinto station wagon(boom).  You can guess which car we fought over.

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talico
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This is a crazy thread!
In reply to dinoSnake, Apr 27, 2013

No most people don't really know what the differences in sensor size are.  Noise is easy to see.  The perspective is hard to see.  It may be easier to feel. But there is a big difference there.

Full frame is just a name for the 35MM digital format.  Get over it.  Who cares what it is called, we all know what we are talking about here.  There are times where I would like a medium format camera.  To rent.  I would like to take some portraits with greater compression and larger field of view.  It's not for everybody though.

If you want to take the best photos you can, buy the equipment that you can afford and that best fits your needs.  If you are unhappy with your camera, try something else.  Golf is fun.

Tom
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Jeff Tokayer
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Re: OT, backups ..... Jeff......
In reply to Guy Parsons, Apr 27, 2013

Guy Parsons wrote:

Jeff Tokayer wrote:

Back to forums (or seeing that we have gone all Latin - fora), sure beats doing anything useful. Currently wasting time on the 'net because this notebook is doing a horrendously long backup to  my NAS, yikes, another 23 hours to go.

Are you doing a wi-fi backup? I did that once and it took 3 days. My subsequent full backup, using a gigabit network, took only 6 hours.

Um, yes indeed, it is WiFi as I'm too lazy to drag the cable from behind the TV over to the coffee table. Hey, it gives me something to complain about, and isn't what what forums are all about?

What I do dread is adding more capacity (another 3TB) to the NAS, 4 drives capacity, 3 only at the moment (1TB+1TB+3TB). The restriping seems to take forever. And later I want to replace the two 1 TB drives with 3 or 4 TB drives, oh boy, that will takes many days to sort itself out.

Regards..... Guy

I only have 2 1TB drives. I can imagine the pain of backing up 3 3TB drives.

I decided to make the NAS my main drive, so I don't have to go trough backups again. Using Raid 1, gives me one safe backup.

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