SURVEY - Do FT / mFT users know the difference from "full frame"? Replies wanted!!

Started Apr 26, 2013 | Discussions
Paul De Bra
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Indeed! Spot on.
In reply to Brian Wadie, Apr 26, 2013

I moved to m43 because of the difference in size and weight.

I know a full frame sensor catches a lot more light (4 times) so a large aperture and keeping ISO low is more important for m43. I also know that shallow DoF is more easily obtained as sensor size grows, but because I almost always want deep DoF and everything in focus m43 is at an advantage there.

I can't really compare with "film". I have shot with film (on an Olympus OM-G) but there was nothing to write home about in any picture I took. I am just not very good with a camera that is mostly manual.

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Kewee
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Re: SURVEY - Do FT / mFT users know the difference from "full frame"? Replies wanted!!
In reply to Great Bustard, Apr 26, 2013

Great Bustard wrote:

It's a shame that you can't understand that f/2.8 on mFT puts the same amount of light on the sensor as f/5.6 on FF for a given shutter speed, which, in turn, results in the same noise for equally efficient sensors.

I'm assuming you believe f/2.8 allows twice as much light to pass through the lens as f/5.6, if so your wrong, as are many others who calculate f-stops but multiplying by two. Aperture values are quite different. Each full f-stop either doubles or halves the light passing through a lens depending on whether your opening the aperture or stopping down. F/4 lets twice as much light through the lens than f5.6, f2.8 lets four times as much light through the lens as f5.6, it doesn't just double the light transmission as many appear to believe.

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Detail Man
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Re: Replies wanted !!
In reply to dinoSnake, Apr 26, 2013

dinoSnake wrote:

Please post your replies and thoughts on this topic, I could use feedback urgently.

Thank you!

Pathetic ploy.

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Msnap
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Re: SURVEY - Do FT / mFT users know the difference from "full frame"? Replies wanted!!
In reply to dinoSnake, Apr 26, 2013

I understand that for technologically identical sensors, larger sizes give larger pixels which gives better pictures. But the sensors in different formats aren't technologically identical. Some mFT sensors will be better than some FF sensors and vice versa.

Seems like an overrated topic given how simple things really are.

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Guy Parsons
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Re: Replies wanted !!
In reply to Detail Man, Apr 26, 2013

Detail Man wrote:

dinoSnake wrote:

Please post your replies and thoughts on this topic, I could use feedback urgently.

Thank you!

Pathetic ploy.

Hi DM,

I think it's all about getting feedback info to get into an argument with Joe. No point in doing that as Joe will win. Looks a bit hit and run though at this stage, doesn't it?

Regards..... Guy

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eliaspt
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Re: SURVEY - Do FT / mFT users know the difference from "full frame"? Replies wanted!!
In reply to dinoSnake, Apr 26, 2013

Did the OP know that he could have a life?

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LMNCT
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Re: SURVEY - Do FT / mFT users know the difference from "full frame"? Replies wanted!!
In reply to dinoSnake, Apr 26, 2013

After dragging Leica rangefinders (not lightweights), Nikon SLRs and Hasselblad 2 1/4 cameras and lenses, the M4/3 is very appealing.  Every image does not have to print to the size of a barn.    Size and weight plus very good image performance are the primary reasons.

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Chas2
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Re: SURVEY - Do FT / mFT users know the difference from "full frame"? yes
In reply to dinoSnake, Apr 26, 2013

why on earth not?

are you suggesting people do not understand what they are buying?  I suppose that is possible, but usually not me, and definitely not when it comes to luxury items such as cameras!

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Detail Man
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Re: Replies wanted !!
In reply to Guy Parsons, Apr 26, 2013

Guy Parsons wrote:

Detail Man wrote:

dinoSnake wrote:

Please post your replies and thoughts on this topic, I could use feedback urgently.

Thank you!

Pathetic ploy.

Hi DM,

I think it's all about getting feedback info to get into an argument with Joe. No point in doing that as Joe will win. Looks a bit hit and run though at this stage, doesn't it?

DigiMatt summed up the medicine show many posts ago on an active Open Talk Forum thread where the OP continues to have every opportunity to attempt to reply directly to DigiMatt's post found here: http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51357625

But that would make sense - which is more than I would say the OP has accomplished on any of a number of threads to date. The paradox of consciousness is that one has to understand what they do not understand in order to become aware of what they do not understand. Not likely, it seems.

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digifan
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Re: Full frame and wikipedia
In reply to Great Bustard, Apr 26, 2013

Great Bustard wrote:

Ergo607 wrote:

That said: there is no such thing as full frame, because by the very definition of it, there is no lens that I know of that uses the whole frame of the sensor (quite rightly so, because it would have severe vignetting.)

Funny you say "because by the very definition of it":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full-frame_digital_SLR

A full-frame digital SLR is a digital single-lens reflex camera (DSLR) fitted with an image sensor that is the same size as a 35 mm (36×24 mm) film frame

Funny you quote wikipedia which is a source of knowledge but is maintained also by many laymen. You can even add info yourself, it's more a democratic knowledge base then exact science.

Full Frame is when the system and lenses are designed for it's dedicated purpose. So technically Nikon 1 and dedicated lenses is full frame, Pentax Q is full frame, (m)43 is full frame, APS-C with EF-S/DX lenses is full frame, 35mm is full frame with EF etc. lenses etc. etc. etc.

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Jeff Tokayer
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Brian...
In reply to Brian Wadie, Apr 26, 2013

Brian Wadie wrote:

"Hmm, so I guess it takes "courage" to buy a Suzuki over a Honda or Nissan, for example?"

Funny that, its exactly what I did - its called matching the product to one's needs. I've had my little Swift since 1955 and its met those needs excellently, relatively low annual mileage, able to cruise at well in excess of the UK speed limit, comfortable enough to do 500 miles in a day and still get out without being crippled etc and its economic to run and totally relaiable

I've owned everything from a vintage BSA 3 wheeler to a Range Rover in the past and, at the time, they all met my needs

There ain't no one "right" answer whether it be cars or camera (or anything else come to that)! 

Did you ever drive a Triumph Mayflower? My father owned one many years ago, and to us it was like driving a poor man's RR (very poor)

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Guy Parsons
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Re: Replies wanted !!
In reply to Detail Man, Apr 26, 2013

Detail Man wrote: ...... The paradox of consciousness is that one has to understand what they do not understand in order to become aware of what they do not understand.

Hey, I like that. Must get it translated into Latin and carve into my front door.

Anyway, Open Talk to me seems mostly like a sewer that sometimes overflows into cleaner forums.

Regards...... Guy

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AndyGM
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Re: SURVEY - Do FT / mFT users know the difference from "full frame"? Replies wanted!!
In reply to Kewee, Apr 26, 2013

Kewee wrote:

Great Bustard wrote:

It's a shame that you can't understand that f/2.8 on mFT puts the same amount of light on the sensor as f/5.6 on FF for a given shutter speed, which, in turn, results in the same noise for equally efficient sensors.

I'm assuming you believe f/2.8 allows twice as much light to pass through the lens as f/5.6, if so your wrong, as are many others who calculate f-stops but multiplying by two. Aperture values are quite different. Each full f-stop either doubles or halves the light passing through a lens depending on whether your opening the aperture or stopping down. F/4 lets twice as much light through the lens than f5.6, f2.8 lets four times as much light through the lens as f5.6, it doesn't just double the light transmission as many appear to believe.

GB didn't use "twice" or "double" anywhere.

"Full Frame" 135 format sensors are 4 times the area of Four Thirds sensors (roughly). The f stop is an artificial construct to have a means of describing aperture in a way that is useful of working out exposure, universally, across all camera formats, so that the same "light per unit area" falls on the recording medium no matter what camera.

So an FF lens at f/2.8 and an m43 lens at f/2.8 are projecting the same "light per unit area", but since the FF lens image circle has 4 times the area, there is 4 times as much light entering that camera. To equalize the total light entering the two cameras, you have to reduce the aperture on the FF lens by a factor of four... and then I am kinda back to what you said.

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Detail Man
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Re: Replies wanted !!
In reply to Guy Parsons, Apr 26, 2013

Guy Parsons wrote:

Detail Man wrote: ...... The paradox of consciousness is that one has to understand what they do not understand in order to become aware of what they do not understand.

Hey, I like that. Must get it translated into Latin and carve into my front door.

Rather concise it is (they must have come up with all of this a long time ago):

Mirum est quod sensus est intellegere, quid sit ignorant, ut non intelligam.

An interesting game is to then reverse-translate back, and see what comes back in English:

The strange thing is that the sense of man is to understand, they do not know what it is, that they may not understand.

Anyway, Open Talk to me seems mostly like a sewer that sometimes overflows into cleaner forums.

It's about the same as all the others. A handful of attached cerebrums, and those rattling about.

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Guy Parsons
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Re: Replies wanted !!
In reply to Detail Man, Apr 26, 2013

Detail Man wrote:

Guy Parsons wrote:

Detail Man wrote: ...... The paradox of consciousness is that one has to understand what they do not understand in order to become aware of what they do not understand.

Hey, I like that. Must get it translated into Latin and carve into my front door.

Rather concise it is (they must have come up with all of this a long time ago):

Mirum est quod sensus est intellegere, quid sit ignorant, ut non intelligam.

An interesting game is to then reverse-translate back, and see what comes back in English:

The strange thing is that the sense of man is to understand, they do not know what it is, that they may not understand.

Anyway, Open Talk to me seems mostly like a sewer that sometimes overflows into cleaner forums.

It's about the same as all the others. A handful of attached cerebrums, and those rattling about.

Google translates are fun. My old school motto was Vincit qui se Vincit. Works both ways in Google but the "Ille" is understood in front of it. Naturally the schoolboys said it meant "Wink at those who wink at you".

Back to forums (or seeing that we have gone all Latin - fora), sure beats doing anything useful. Currently wasting time on the 'net because this notebook is doing a horrendously long backup to  my NAS, yikes, another 23 hours to go.

Anyway, what is this thread all about? We know why we variously use LX3 or E-PL5 in my case, chunkier cameras just do not interest me no matter what their merits might be.

Regards...... Guy

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Jeff Tokayer
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Re: Replies wanted !!
In reply to Guy Parsons, Apr 26, 2013

Back to forums (or seeing that we have gone all Latin - fora), sure beats doing anything useful. Currently wasting time on the 'net because this notebook is doing a horrendously long backup to  my NAS, yikes, another 23 hours to go.

Are you doing a wi-fi backup? I did that once and it took 3 days. My subsequent full backup, using a gigabit network, took only 6 hours.

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FoolyCooly
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Who Cares- I own or have owned all 3 formats.
In reply to dinoSnake, Apr 26, 2013

All the talk of "equivalents" and FF being superior is just a bunch of  hype.

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s_grins
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Re: SURVEY - Do FT / mFT users know the difference from "full frame"? Replies wanted!!
In reply to dinoSnake, Apr 26, 2013

Yes, I do know.

I use both FF and 4/3 sensors.

Do you have experience with both formats?

S.

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Bob Tullis
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Re: SURVEY - Do FT / mFT users know the difference from "full frame"? Replies wanted!!
In reply to dinoSnake, Apr 26, 2013

dinoSnake wrote:

DigiMatt wrote:

dinoSnake wrote:

News flash: EVERYONE who bought into their systems KNOWS that their chosen format - CX, FT, mFT, APS-C and yes, even FF - will simply not give the same results as the next format size up.  It was a WILLFUL decision: a cost vs benefit ratio in terms of advantages versus disadvantages for exact and every camera format.

LOL, this so wrong its comical. I have a NEWSFLASH for you: The overwhelming majority of photographers DO NOT understand that their chosen format is an image quality compromise. There are hoards of m4/3, APS-C, and FF users here on DPReview who will go to the grave not understanding equivalence and the impact of sensor size on image quality. It's like Galileo Galilei  defending Nicolaus Copernicus ideas on heliocentrism to the Catholic church. It's not going over well.

So, is this true?  Using FT / mFT users as a test, do you understand "the impact of sensor size on image quality"?  What was your knowledge of this topic at the time you made your purchase decision of the cameras you are now using?  How did your purchase decision go in regards to this?

Please post your replies and thoughts on this topic, I could use feedback urgently.

Thank you!

I was enticed by the more 'traditional' size compared to FF DSLRs, and took µ4/3 on despite the inferior comparative output (back when the E-P2 and GF1 were released).   I wanted to see if I could create 'compelling' w/o the absolute in IQ.  I also was sort of tired chasing landscape light, and this format gave a little freedom to branch out of my usual endeavors.

Pixel per pixel, there was no contest.   But for prints viewed normally. . . I've never looked back.   Well, I'd look back over my shoulder from time to time, but that was before the recent 16mp models arrived.

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azazel1024
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Re: SURVEY - Do FT / mFT users know the difference from "full frame"? Replies wanted!!
In reply to dinoSnake, Apr 26, 2013

Yes, I understood it perfectly. This was one of the big reasons I was looking at a 5d at the time. My wife did have an E-PL1 and it did not meet my performance requirements either for camera control, ergonomics or image quality. Then the OM-D E-M5 was announced and I changed my mind after early tests came out.

Camera control was suitable, image quality was more than suitable and ergonomics were improved enough. Decision made.

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