SURVEY - Do FT / mFT users know the difference from "full frame"? Replies wanted!!

Started Apr 26, 2013 | Discussions
dinoSnake
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SURVEY - Do FT / mFT users know the difference from "full frame"? Replies wanted!!
Apr 26, 2013

DigiMatt wrote:

dinoSnake wrote:

News flash: EVERYONE who bought into their systems KNOWS that their chosen format - CX, FT, mFT, APS-C and yes, even FF - will simply not give the same results as the next format size up.  It was a WILLFUL decision: a cost vs benefit ratio in terms of advantages versus disadvantages for exact and every camera format.

LOL, this so wrong its comical. I have a NEWSFLASH for you: The overwhelming majority of photographers DO NOT understand that their chosen format is an image quality compromise. There are hoards of m4/3, APS-C, and FF users here on DPReview who will go to the grave not understanding equivalence and the impact of sensor size on image quality. It's like Galileo Galilei  defending Nicolaus Copernicus ideas on heliocentrism to the Catholic church. It's not going over well.

So, is this true?  Using FT / mFT users as a test, do you understand "the impact of sensor size on image quality"?  What was your knowledge of this topic at the time you made your purchase decision of the cameras you are now using?  How did your purchase decision go in regards to this?

Please post your replies and thoughts on this topic, I could use feedback urgently.

Thank you!

Ergo607
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Re: SURVEY - Do FT / mFT users know the difference from "full frame"? Replies wanted!!
In reply to dinoSnake, Apr 26, 2013

Lay it to rest. There is no way you can win this dissuasion, and frankly I don't come to this forum to read about this silly discussions.

If you want my short answer: I knew about the strengths (!) and weaknesses of the MFT format.

If you want the long answer: I am a salesperson, and by definition 90% of the people don't have a clue what they are buying into. More so if they are C*n*n or N$k$n users. Because it takes courage to buy into a system that is less popular, you will find more informed people in the FT/MFT world. That said: there is no such thing as full frame, because by the very definition of it, there is no lens that I know of that uses the whole frame of the sensor (quite rightly so, because it would have severe vignetting.) Probably the least informed people buy 135mm format anyway, because they have the money, don't know what the are buying, but because they can and because they want to show off they buy a 135mm format camera. Sth like most people who buy an iPhone: they don't know sh*t what it can do, but they buy it to stand out in the crowd...

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AllMankind
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Re: SURVEY - Do FT / mFT users know the difference from "full frame"? Replies wanted!!
In reply to dinoSnake, Apr 26, 2013

dinoSnake wrote:

Please post your replies and thoughts on this topic, I could use feedback urgently.

There is a huge difference in knowing/not knowing about the impact of sensor size/aperture/focal length and equivalence, and actually CARING about it.

I understand it, I just don't care and this whole equivalence arguement is nothing more than noise to me.

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Great Bustard
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"Courage"?
In reply to Ergo607, Apr 26, 2013

Ergo607 wrote:

Lay it to rest. There is no way you can win this dissuasion, and frankly I don't come to this forum to read about this silly discussions.

And yet, you're the first to reply.

If you want my short answer: I knew about the strengths (!) and weaknesses of the MFT format.

Excellent.

If you want the long answer: I am a salesperson, and by definition 90% of the people don't have a clue what they are buying into.

Did you mean to say "my experience is" instead of "by definition"?

More so if they are C*n*n or N$k$n users. Because it takes courage to buy into a system that is less popular, you will find more informed people in the FT/MFT world.

Hmm, so I guess it takes "courage" to buy a Suzuki over a Honda or Nissan, for example?

That said: there is no such thing as full frame, because by the very definition of it, there is no lens that I know of that uses the whole frame of the sensor (quite rightly so, because it would have severe vignetting.)

Funny you say "because by the very definition of it":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full-frame_digital_SLR

A full-frame digital SLR is a digital single-lens reflex camera (DSLR) fitted with an image sensor that is the same size as a 35 mm (36×24 mm) film frame

Probably the least informed people buy 135mm format anyway, because they have the money, don't know what the are buying, but because they can and because they want to show off they buy a 135mm format camera.

So it's the "least informed" that buy Ferrari and Lamborghini?

Sth like most people who buy an iPhone: they don't know sh*t what it can do, but they buy it to stand out in the crowd...

But those who buy, say, an S3, know all about it?

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jalywol
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Re: SURVEY - Do FT / mFT users know the difference from "full frame"? Replies wanted!!
In reply to dinoSnake, Apr 26, 2013

A camera is a tool to record images.  If you can get the results you want, whether you are a P&S user, M43 user, APS-C user or FF user, then you are probably inclined to stay with the system you have, whether you know all of the other options out there or not.

If you are not getting the results you want, you look elsewhere until you find them....if you can.

Most people who are using M43 seem to have come to the format from DSLRs, and have chosen M43 as a compact alternative to chunky lens/body gear.  I would be very surprised if most M43 users were unaware of the differences between the formats...

Those M43 users who need very shallow DOF and want the ultimate in very high ISO performance understand that they will need a larger sensor, and many of them have a FF camera for when those circumstances arise.  Similarly, if you need fast C-AF tracking performance, an M43 is not going to be your gear of choice.....but for just about any other situation, it fills the niche for size and performance rather admirably.

-J

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JosephScha
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Re: SURVEY - Do FT / mFT users know the difference from "full frame"? Replies wanted!!
In reply to dinoSnake, Apr 26, 2013

yes, I do know. I used to actually join in equivalence discussion but gave up when told that despite equal light intensity at the sensor f stops were not equivalent on m43 because total light was less... so wrong.
I used to have a pany FZ7 with a 1/2.5" sensor that had pretty poor dynamic range and egregious noise at is 200. I was looking for a similar size and weight camera with better image quality and m43 fit my needs. I did not want a ff DSLR. I didn't want a 645 camera or a hasselblad with a phase one back. If I was really going for best IQ I don't know if even that is it. I was aiming for improved IQ, ability to shoot raw, and still have a small light camera.. at a cost I could justify to myself. Arguments that a Canon 1DS has better IQ I will concede, and it does not trouble me.
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Great Bustard
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Nicely stated!
In reply to jalywol, Apr 26, 2013

jalywol wrote:

A camera is a tool to record images.  If you can get the results you want, whether you are a P&S user, M43 user, APS-C user or FF user, then you are probably inclined to stay with the system you have, whether you know all of the other options out there or not.

If you are not getting the results you want, you look elsewhere until you find them....if you can.

Most people who are using M43 seem to have come to the format from DSLRs, and have chosen M43 as a compact alternative to chunky lens/body gear.  I would be very surprised if most M43 users were unaware of the differences between the formats...

Those M43 users who need very shallow DOF and want the ultimate in very high ISO performance understand that they will need a larger sensor, and many of them have a FF camera for when those circumstances arise.  Similarly, if you need fast C-AF tracking performance, an M43 is not going to be your gear of choice.....but for just about any other situation, it fills the niche for size and performance rather admirably.

Great post!  Sums it up nicely, actually.

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Guy Parsons
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Re: SURVEY - Do FT / mFT users know the difference from "full frame"? Replies wanted!!
In reply to dinoSnake, Apr 26, 2013

dinoSnake wrote:

So, is this true?  Using FT / mFT users as a test, do you understand "the impact of sensor size on image quality"?  What was your knowledge of this topic at the time you made your purchase decision of the cameras you are now using?  How did your purchase decision go in regards to this?

Number 1. I bought into 4/3 years ago with the Oly E-300 because it had a dust buster that worked, whereas all the competition spent all their time swabbing away madly, and still do it seems.

Number 2. I wanted to wait for 8MP as a minimum to start for a system camera and the 8MP of the Oly was great.

Number 3. The increased 4/3-M4/3 DOF suits me fine for what I do, in fact the often too  shallow DOF of 35mm film days was a pain in the you-know-what at times.

Number 4. Now using E-PL5 and I never originally realised that M4/3 could ever be this good.

Number 5. Dang me this two body five lens kit is so light that I never notice it on my shoulder.

Number 6. I drive a 13 year old Subaru manual shift, does that tell you anything? I could afford a Rolls-Royce, but why?

Please post your replies and thoughts on this topic, I could use feedback urgently.

What's the urgency? We will still be here tomorrow and the day after singing the praises of M4/3 in our own little world.

Thank you!

No problemo!

Regards...... Guy

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Great Bustard
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Re: SURVEY - Do FT / mFT users know the difference from "full frame"? Replies wanted!!
In reply to JosephScha, Apr 26, 2013

JosephScha wrote:

yes, I do know. I used to actually join in equivalence discussion but gave up when told that despite equal light intensity at the sensor f stops were not equivalent on m43 because total light was less... so wrong.

It's a shame that you can't understand that f/2.8 on mFT puts the same amount of light on the sensor as f/5.6 on FF for a given shutter speed, which, in turn, results in the same noise for equally efficient sensors.

I used to have a pany FZ7 with a 1/2.5" sensor that had pretty poor dynamic range and egregious noise at is 200.

That's because so little light fell on the sensor compared to larger sensor systems for a given exposure.

I was looking for a similar size and weight camera with better image quality and m43 fit my needs. I did not want a ff DSLR. I didn't want a 645 camera or a hasselblad with a phase one back. If I was really going for best IQ I don't know if even that is it. I was aiming for improved IQ, ability to shoot raw, and still have a small light camera.. at a cost I could justify to myself. Arguments that a Canon 1DS has better IQ I will concede, and it does not trouble me.

Makes perfect sense.

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Brian Wadie
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Yes - But
In reply to dinoSnake, Apr 26, 2013

I can only compare the images from my 5Dmk2 and EM-5 and the basic response is, yes - but the differences are small and don't matter for my use (prints to 30"x20" or up to 6ft panos for sale via galleries and craft fairs)

Perhaps more importantly the people who buy my prints can't tell the difference

Pixel peeping at 100% on the monitor the FF images are smoother and more "filmic" but viewed as the finished print this isn't apparent and for some images I prefer the EM-5 colour pallette / presentation (more natural colour, more "Open" and somehow a brighter feel to them)

Having said all that, the only reason I changed was weight and if it wasn't that I am am unable to manage the weight of the canon bodies / lenses I wouldn't have made the change of system

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Grzzl
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Re: SURVEY - Do FT / mFT users know the difference from "full frame"? Replies wanted!!
In reply to dinoSnake, Apr 26, 2013

yes i did,

I had a Nikon system with a lot of lenses. I travel al lot with bike and i was tired of lugging the weight around. So i bought a Pen EP-1, which sadly enough was nicked out of my bikebag.

After a while i sold my Nikon gear and bought a Pen PL3 and a G5.

I don't see much difference when i am evaluating my pics. Sometimes i would like to have lesser dof, but till now i could work around that with using longer focals and greater distance.

I don't have noise issues. I frequently take lower-light pics, but noise is reasonbly removable. When you are printing a lesser problem.

I think people tends to exaggerate the differences between sensors severely.

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Brian Wadie
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Re: "Courage"?
In reply to Great Bustard, Apr 26, 2013

"Hmm, so I guess it takes "courage" to buy a Suzuki over a Honda or Nissan, for example?"

Funny that, its exactly what I did - its called matching the product to one's needs. I've had my little Swift since 1955 and its met those needs excellently, relatively low annual mileage, able to cruise at well in excess of the UK speed limit, comfortable enough to do 500 miles in a day and still get out without being crippled etc and its economic to run and totally relaiable

I've owned everything from a vintage BSA 3 wheeler to a Range Rover in the past and, at the time, they all met my needs

There ain't no one "right" answer whether it be cars or camera (or anything else come to that)! 

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Great Bustard
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Re: "Courage"?
In reply to Brian Wadie, Apr 26, 2013

Brian Wadie wrote:

"Hmm, so I guess it takes "courage" to buy a Suzuki over a Honda or Nissan, for example?"

Funny that, its exactly what I did - its called matching the product to one's needs. I've had my little Swift since 1955 and its met those needs excellently, relatively low annual mileage, able to cruise at well in excess of the UK speed limit, comfortable enough to do 500 miles in a day and still get out without being crippled etc and its economic to run and totally relaiable

I just wouldn't call "matching the product to one's needs" an act of "courage" -- even in analogy.

I've owned everything from a vintage BSA 3 wheeler to a Range Rover in the past and, at the time, they all met my needs

There ain't no one "right" answer whether it be cars or camera (or anything else come to that)! 

For a fact!

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Great Bustard
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Spot-on!
In reply to Brian Wadie, Apr 26, 2013

Brian Wadie wrote:

I can only compare the images from my 5Dmk2 and EM-5 and the basic response is, yes - but the differences are small and don't matter for my use (prints to 30"x20" or up to 6ft panos for sale via galleries and craft fairs)

Perhaps more importantly the people who buy my prints can't tell the difference

Pixel peeping at 100% on the monitor the FF images are smoother and more "filmic" but viewed as the finished print this isn't apparent and for some images I prefer the EM-5 colour pallette / presentation (more natural colour, more "Open" and somehow a brighter feel to them)

Having said all that, the only reason I changed was weight and if it wasn't that I am am unable to manage the weight of the canon bodies / lenses I wouldn't have made the change of system

Another great post!

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Bluephotons
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Re: SURVEY - Do FT / mFT users know the difference from "full frame"? Replies wanted!!
In reply to Grzzl, Apr 26, 2013

M4/3 users realized long time ago, that if you want to be like Ansel Adams you have to own a mule or you will end up being the mule,   While we get around to find the mule we choose M4/3; we are not Ansel Adams yet, but neither the mule!.

Are you the full frame mule?

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MatsP
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Re: SURVEY - Do FT / mFT users know the difference from "full frame"? Replies wanted!!
In reply to dinoSnake, Apr 26, 2013

dinoSnake wrote:

So, is this true?  Using FT / mFT users as a test, do you understand "the impact of sensor size on image quality"?  What was your knowledge of this topic at the time you made your purchase decision of the cameras you are now using?  How did your purchase decision go in regards to this?

Yes I was very aware of that when I changed from a Canon 40D with a lot of mostly APS-dedicated lenses to an OM-D E-M5. The background was that my 40D got drowned by accident (I was wet too) and after drying started to work again but somewhat unreliably. I wasn't interested in upgrading within  the Canon APS system and I didn't feel to buying another 40D either.

I was very sceptical to m4/3 mainly because of the size of the sensor but when the E-M5 appeared with the new 16 MP sensor it suddenly seemed as a reasonable compromise between IQ and portability. Studying IR and dpr I was convinced that the E-M5 was capable of higher IQ than any Canon APS and it was not far behind 5DII which was my main alternative.

I'm mostly satisfied with my E-M5. It has capability to better IQ than my former camera. Sometimes I miss shallow DOF but I didn't have much of that on my 40D either. Problem is solved with a 45/1,8. The 40D was much better at catching moving objects and had an overall much more reliable and exact AF system, but that has nothing to do with sensor size per se, but with the absence of a mirror and pdaf. That's currently a serious disadvantage of m43.

So what I dislike with the m43 system is not the sensor size as such, though I'm full aware of "the impact of sensor size on image quality". It is the bad tracking capability and the lack of fast long tele lenses and affordable high quality standard zooms. If a new OMD whith pdaf shows up and also new lenses I'll keep to m43. Otherwise I'm not sure. Maybe as a travel system with only a few lenses.

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goshigoo
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Re: SURVEY - Do FT / mFT users know the difference from "full frame"? Replies wanted!!
In reply to Great Bustard, Apr 26, 2013

Great Bustard wrote:

JosephScha wrote:

yes, I do know. I used to actually join in equivalence discussion but gave up when told that despite equal light intensity at the sensor f stops were not equivalent on m43 because total light was less... so wrong.

It's a shame that you can't understand that f/2.8 on mFT puts the same amount of light on the sensor as f/5.6 on FF for a given shutter speed, which, in turn, results in the same noise for equally efficient sensors.

I used to have a pany FZ7 with a 1/2.5" sensor that had pretty poor dynamic range and egregious noise at is 200.

That's because so little light fell on the sensor compared to larger sensor systems for a given exposure.

I was looking for a similar size and weight camera with better image quality and m43 fit my needs. I did not want a ff DSLR. I didn't want a 645 camera or a hasselblad with a phase one back. If I was really going for best IQ I don't know if even that is it. I was aiming for improved IQ, ability to shoot raw, and still have a small light camera.. at a cost I could justify to myself. Arguments that a Canon 1DS has better IQ I will concede, and it does not trouble me.

Makes perfect sense.

I think with the introduction of speed booster; it helps people understanding the concept of "f/2.8 on mFT puts the same amount of light on the sensor as f/5.6 on FF for a given shutter speed, which, in turn, results in the same noise for equally efficient sensors."
As using a speed booster converts a FF 24-70 f/2.8 lens into a 12-35 f/1.4 @ m43 lens
so you can see the light gathering capability (and Dof) of both lenses are the same

and there will be no size advantage to use a native m43 mount 12-35 f/1.4 as it will be as big as the FF version of 24-70 f/2.8, if panasoinc decided to make one
I think Canon should release more small sized lenses like the 40 f/2.8 - e.g. 24-70 f/5.6, 24 f/4, 85 f/4.....etc.

I am sure these lenses, when paired with the smallest DSLR EOS Rebel SL1, is a better response to mirrorless comparing to EOS M

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Ulric
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Re: SURVEY - Do FT / mFT users know the difference from "full frame"? Replies wanted!!
In reply to dinoSnake, Apr 26, 2013

I've been using the 24x36 mm format for ~40 years, all the time calling it "småbild" (small picture in Swedish) to distinguish from the higher quality medium and large format cameras. Mostly SLR, mostly Olympus but also Pentax. If Olympus had produced a digital body that took my OM lenses, I would have bought it without a second thought. That would have been the uninformed decision.

But as we know, Olympus never did, so I kept using my OM1 and OM2 cameras until last year. I looked at the new D800 and D600 and quickly realized that, for whatever reason, all FF and even APS-C DSLRs were huge compared to analog cameras! That is still a mystery to me. I thought about getting a Leica, then the Fuji X-Pro1, then the new Olympus E-M5. Lots of looking at pictures on the web, realizing that modern lenses were so good that they could confidently be used wide open, finally settling on the Olympus.

Some things I didn't realize:

- how good IBIS is

- how different an EVF is from an OVF (mostly better, but not always)

- how annoying AF can be

But the consequences of different sensor sizes certainly wasn't, and isn't, news to me. At some point in the 80s I vowed to not buy another camera until I could afford a Hasselblad. Well, I can now, but I don't want one. It won't fit in my pocket.

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call me Skippy
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Re: SURVEY - Do FT / mFT users know the difference from "full frame"? Replies wanted!!
In reply to dinoSnake, Apr 26, 2013

I knew to a certain point. For me it brakes down to bigger sensors having less noise and lower depth of field and possibly more resolution (at least its easier to get it and keep the picture clean). Simply "better picture quality" though seems to be a little to simple. But of course, it is a matter of compromise: at a certain point I have to stop taking pictures (or at least get more creative) than the FF guy or gal. When you do available light photography I mean. But my "break-down" makes also clear, that everything is a compromise: I found myself in situations where I would have prefered the greater field of depths of compacts...

However. I am sure this thread will come to nothing. Very often people feel they have to justify their decision for a system. Even more so with four thirds. For me it hits the spot in term of compromise. But I do understand the people who want to go full frame.

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pcake
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Re: SURVEY - Do FT / mFT users know the difference from "full frame"? Replies wanted!!
In reply to call me Skippy, Apr 26, 2013

i was completely aware of the differences between m4/3 and aps-c and micro 4/3 and full frame.  i have physical issues that made a lighter camera essential if i was to keep taking pics at all, and my first m4/3 - a GF1 - not only kept me shooting, but was a very good camera.  and i loved the smaller, lighter lenses.  after carrying around larger DSLRs, even if i didn't have wrist/elbow issues, carrying a small camera around can be a breath of fresh air after lugging around a big, heavy camera and a couple big, heavy lenses. and some of the m4/3 cameras are just so much fun!

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