Confirmed: No practical advantage to removing D7100 AA filter

Started Apr 25, 2013 | Discussions
Whalligeo
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Re: We too
In reply to Mako2011, Apr 26, 2013

Mako2011 wrote:

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

For anyone to show me a pic from a D5200 or a D7000 taken under the same conditions that's as sharp.  Speculation is too cheap to meter.

Never said that the D5200 would be as sharp...they are saying, that there is no practical difference in terms of practical photography. We too are waiting for you to show us an example where there in indeed a "practical" difference. We have time...good luck

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My opinions are my own and not those of DPR or its administration. They carry no 'special' value (except to me and Lacie of course)

Or are they are really saying, that most are too thick to notice! They might have a point.

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They said it couldn't be done, so I encouraged my peers not to bother.
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inasir1971
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What about AF fine tune?
In reply to Reilly Diefenbach, Apr 26, 2013

For "practical photography", that is anything other than controlled shots taken with liveview, how is one going to get accurate focus with the D5200 since it does not have AF fine tune?

AF fine tune isn't just a nice sounding item to make the menu bigger - it does serve a very important and necessary function.

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AdamT
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Re: The Pixel cramming has crept up so far
In reply to Reilly Diefenbach, Apr 26, 2013

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

Wow, 54,000 posts.  That's really amazing!

Not really , that`s in well over a decade AND most were posted at the birth of affordable DSLRs (Canon D60, Nikon D100, Fuji S2) and in the lens forums to suit to lots to post about back then .

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marike6
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Re: Confirmed: No practical advantage to removing D7100 AA filter
In reply to Shunda77, Apr 26, 2013

Shunda77 wrote:

You need to look at the data and try and understand why results may be different between a full frame sensor and an APS-C sensor.

I don't "need" to do anything, I understand quite well about pixel densities, and so forth.

It's just funny how measurebaters want to spend all day talking about brick wall tests, minor differences in high ISO, diffraction, banding, etc.  Then when the RAW Studio Test scene answers a very specific question like the AA-filter question (but they don't like the answer), they want to say "yes but in the real world".

If you can't see a difference in images between the D7000 and D7100, then no, in your "real world" there is essentially no difference.

Apparently for DPR, there is not difference either.

For more discerning users there is a difference, as others above have pointed out.

But don't worry, your new camera is still much better than the old one so no purchase defense necessary.

I don't have a D7100, nor do I intend to buy one.  I already have a DSLR that I'm quite happy with.

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Whalligeo
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Re: The only thing around here less credible
In reply to marike6, Apr 26, 2013

marike6 wrote:


What I think DPR is trying to imply actually should offend quite a large number of photographers, as it would see they are trying to argue that "for most amateurs" the D7100 is not going to make much difference.  Which again, is not true at all, since there are some extraordinarily talented amateurs who shoot using painstakingly good technique with very good lenses.  Again for such a user a camera like the D7100 is has a very real "practical" advantage in terms of IQ over other models.

Correct. Yes there are some very fine, talented amateurs and professionals, but in the main, the reverse is true. Few D7100 owners will ever see the true potential from their camera, and that will be for various reasons: misconceptions, misunderstanding, miss-sold, incompetence.....and so it goes on.

The D7100 is not a snapshot camera to be used as a big P&S, yet for some bizarre reason DPR seems to think this is how most people use such a camera in the "real world" (or whatever they think "real world" usage is).

I didn't bother to read the DPR review, but it doesn't surprise me in the slightest. The other review sites are no better, none in my opinion give a true, in-depth insight to cameras of this caliber. Quite frankly, you might as well just go and see what Ken Rockwell has to say. In fact, if you read what he says about camera owners, he is correct. He says that most photographers do not know how to take a sharp picture.

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Whalligeo
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Re: The only thing around here less credible
In reply to Reilly Diefenbach, Apr 26, 2013

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

 To say there's no "practical difference" is just wrong.

I find it is also insulting as well. It is up to the reader of the review to decide if the difference will be practical to them, not the other way round. One person might find the extra detail vital, another wont even understand what your on about. We are talking about two different kinds of people, yet the reviewer choose to address only one kind.

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Shunda77
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Re: Confirmed: No practical advantage to removing D7100 AA filter
In reply to marike6, Apr 26, 2013

marike6 wrote:

Shunda77 wrote:

You need to look at the data and try and understand why results may be different between a full frame sensor and an APS-C sensor.

I don't "need" to do anything, I understand quite well about pixel densities, and so forth.

It's just funny how measurebaters want to spend all day talking about brick wall tests, minor differences in high ISO, diffraction, banding, etc.  Then when the RAW Studio Test scene answers a very specific question like the AA-filter question (but they don't like the answer), they want to say "yes but in the real world".

Are you kidding? I should trust you and the cheerleaders here over an established, professional review site like DPR?

The evidence is overwhelming, yet this nonsense persists, it is quite remarkable.


For more discerning users there is a difference, as others above have pointed out.

No there isn't, it is an imaginary advantage that is misleading people and not helping those who genuinely want to know what this camera is like.

And talking about "more discerning users" is utterly ridiculous in that a discerning user wouldn't bother with imaginary advantages.

As it stands there are other outstanding features of this camera that makes this discussion largely irrelevant, but we shouldn't pretend it is more than what it is.

DPR gave the damned thing a gold award and people are still complaining it isn't good enough. Let the D7100's real merits stand, not the imaginary advantages pushed by fanboys.

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Shunda77
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Re: Confirmed: No practical advantage to removing D7100 AA filter
In reply to d3xmeister, Apr 26, 2013

d3xmeister wrote:

What I find amusing is that when the AA filter was removed or weakend in so many other cameras from other brands, the Nikon fanboys argued like crazy it is a bad thing. They even tried to demonstrate a strong AA filter is better, this forum was full of that. Now that Nikon has done it, it's the best thing ever.

No ,,camp,, has more blind fanboys like Nikon ,,camp,,.

That goes without saying.

This review has revealed them better than most of late however.

Not sure why they are getting so worked up, it would appear to still the best APS-C camera out there by a reasonable margin at the moment.

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Shunda77
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Re: The only thing around here less credible
In reply to Whalligeo, Apr 26, 2013

Whalligeo wrote:


I didn't bother to read the DPR review,

Then you aren't even qualified to comment.

This is getting utterly ridiculous.

The pixel peepers don't even have to read the review to have an opinion on the review! truly amazing talent!!

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photoreddi
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Re: Which Nikon did you say you owned?
In reply to Reilly Diefenbach, Apr 26, 2013

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

I couldn't quite make it out.

Although his profile doesn't say that he actually owns any of these, he has discussed the D5000 so he probably still has that one from this list.

Experience with:

Nikon V1, 10mm 2.8
Nikon J1, 10-30mm
Canon HS 500 Elph - 24mm f2.0
Nikon D5000, 16-85 VR, 70-300 VR, 35mm 1.8, Voigtlander Nokton 58mm 1.4, Sigma 8-16mm, SB-700 Speedlight
Sony WX-5
Panasonic LX-2
Canon 20D
Canon XT
Canon S230
Olympus C-3000
Olympus C-8080
Fuji S602
Fuji 2600
Canon TX1
Sony DSC-T10
Panasonic LS1
Panasonic FZ-50

Perhaps like Zack A. he also owns a Phase 140 since DSLRs are dead. But never say that he isn't a fast learner.

Jared Huntr wrote:

Shotcents wrote:

When someone asked you for your HONEST opinion on a high ISO in a different thread you, once again, avoided addressing the issue and made your response about something personal.

If you think people can't see through this type of fanboyism you're mistaken.

Actually, you do the same. In another thread, when I asked you some specific questions on the P7100 with regarded to your ownership or problems you reported about it, you evaded them and went on a long-winded response on Canon dSLRs and other cameras.

I began to observe this as a pattern in your replies so I simply gave up wasting my time responding. It is impossible to have a constructive discussion when one party has a habit of evading relevant questions while introducing off-topic subjects to distract the argument.

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/50609304

Touché time!

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Shunda77
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Here's the key statement of the whole deal....
In reply to Jared Huntr, Apr 26, 2013

"We shot this and several other scenes with the D5200 using the same lens and settings. Our conclusion after viewing dozens of comparisons was that outside the controlled environment of our studio, even extremely minor shifts in focus or (potentially) sensor alignment could trump the absence of an OLPF in accounting for any visible differences between the D7100 and D5200."


It is minuscule, as possibly would be expected between 2 sensors with such high pixel density.

Time to drop the nonsense and enjoy the other excellent features of this camera that earned it a gold award.

Gold award, people, it's an excellent camera regardless of the Nikon marketing departments coup with the AA filter removal.

I forgive them can you

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Reilly Diefenbach
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No Nikon?
In reply to Jared Huntr, Apr 26, 2013

Jared Huntr wrote:

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

I couldn't quite make it out.

when the poster ignores key questions relevant to the thread and instead attempts to get personal by being critical of the messenger, his equipment, and his images instead of addressing the message itself...

Not even an itty bitty Coolpix?  We want to know your bona fides.  Whether you've got any experience with a Nikon DSLR at all.    Share the knowledge, please :^)

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Shunda77
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Re: It's always a sign of desperation...
In reply to Jared Huntr, Apr 26, 2013

Jared Huntr wrote:

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

I couldn't quite make it out.

when the poster ignores key questions relevant to the thread and instead attempts to get personal by being critical of the messenger, his equipment, and his images instead of addressing the message itself...

Like clockwork unfortunately, you're not the first and you won't be the last

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Reilly Diefenbach
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Consistent.
In reply to Mako2011, Apr 26, 2013

Mako2011 wrote:

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

This is not my D5200 or D7100 and the former isn't back focused at f8.  It's just soft compared to the D7100 because of the blur filter. Download the raws and see for yourself:

As pointed out many times...in this particular example the D5200 images is out of focus. That amount of blur is atypical for a normal D5200 or even D5100 image. Might be something else but that is simply not a typical shot.

No, it is most certainly not out of focus, it is merely soft.  The D7000 is softer yet.

I just rechecked. The D7000 image there is sharper. Very noticeable when set to same framing. Wonder if it's sample variation

AF On has about a 90% participation rate when polled in the FX forum.  The consumer models don't have a dedicated AF On button because the manufacturers are apparently convinced that would lead to confusion among the unwashed.  But assigning the button works fine.

One thing that always goes unmentioned in these threads is that this stuff takes practice, thousands and thousands of shots worth.  With practice, a 90% or better keeper rate for any normal subject should be achievable.

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Mako2011
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may have..
In reply to Reilly Diefenbach, Apr 26, 2013

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

This is not my D5200 or D7100 and the former isn't back focused at f8.  It's just soft compared to the D7100 because of the blur filter. Download the raws and see for yourself:

As pointed out many times...in this particular example the D5200 images is out of focus. That amount of blur is atypical for a normal D5200 or even D5100 image. Might be something else but that is simply not a typical shot.

No, it is most certainly not out of focus, it is merely soft.  The D7000 is softer yet.

I just rechecked. The D7000 image there is sharper. Very noticeable when set to same framing. Wonder if it's sample variation

AF On has about a 90% participation rate when polled in the FX forum.  The consumer models don't have a dedicated AF On button because the manufacturers are apparently convinced that would lead to confusion among the unwashed.  But assigning the button works fine.

One thing that always goes unmentioned in these threads is that this stuff takes practice, thousands and thousands of shots worth.  With practice, a 90% or better keeper rate for any normal subject should be achievable.

I may have missed it but, how is back-button focus relevant to the discussion at hand?

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My opinions are my own and not those of DPR or its administration. They carry no 'special' value (except to me and Lacie of course)

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Jared Huntr
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Re: It's always a sign of desperation...
In reply to Shunda77, Apr 26, 2013

Shunda77 wrote:

Jared Huntr wrote:

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

I couldn't quite make it out.

when the poster ignores key questions relevant to the thread and instead attempts to get personal by being critical of the messenger, his equipment, and his images instead of addressing the message itself...

Like clockwork unfortunately, you're not the first and you won't be the last

 

ok thanks, good to know.

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Whalligeo
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Re: The only thing around here less credible
In reply to Shunda77, Apr 26, 2013

Shunda77 wrote:

Whalligeo wrote:


I didn't bother to read the DPR review,

Then you aren't even qualified to comment.

This is getting utterly ridiculous.

The pixel peepers don't even have to read the review to have an opinion on the review! truly amazing talent!!

I am more qualified than you think.

You have taken what I have said out of context. To get the true meaning read ALL of my comment. If you don't like it, use the forum block facility, thats what its there for.

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Whalligeo
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Re: Confirmed: No practical advantage to removing D7100 AA filter
In reply to Shunda77, Apr 26, 2013

Shunda77 wrote:

marike6 wrote:

Shunda77 wrote:

You need to look at the data and try and understand why results may be different between a full frame sensor and an APS-C sensor.

I don't "need" to do anything, I understand quite well about pixel densities, and so forth.

It's just funny how measurebaters want to spend all day talking about brick wall tests, minor differences in high ISO, diffraction, banding, etc.  Then when the RAW Studio Test scene answers a very specific question like the AA-filter question (but they don't like the answer), they want to say "yes but in the real world".

Are you kidding? I should trust you and the cheerleaders here over an established, professional review site like DPR?

The evidence is overwhelming, yet this nonsense persists, it is quite remarkable.


For more discerning users there is a difference, as others above have pointed out.

No there isn't, it is an imaginary advantage that is misleading people and not helping those who genuinely want to know what this camera is like.

And talking about "more discerning users" is utterly ridiculous in that a discerning user wouldn't bother with imaginary advantages.

As it stands there are other outstanding features of this camera that makes this discussion largely irrelevant, but we shouldn't pretend it is more than what it is.

DPR gave the damned thing a gold award and people are still complaining it isn't good enough. Let the D7100's real merits stand, not the imaginary advantages pushed by fanboys.

You really are a bit of a wind bag. There is an imagery advantage, that is not miss-leading, or imagined, but you do need competence to bring it out, and you also need to know what you are looking for. Clearly you have yet to acquire these skills.

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marike6
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Re: Confirmed: No practical advantage to removing D7100 AA filter
In reply to Shunda77, Apr 26, 2013

Shunda77 wrote:

marike6 wrote:

Shunda77 wrote:

You need to look at the data and try and understand why results may be different between a full frame sensor and an APS-C sensor.

I don't "need" to do anything, I understand quite well about pixel densities, and so forth.

It's just funny how measurebaters want to spend all day talking about brick wall tests, minor differences in high ISO, diffraction, banding, etc.  Then when the RAW Studio Test scene answers a very specific question like the AA-filter question (but they don't like the answer), they want to say "yes but in the real world".

Are you kidding? I should trust you and the cheerleaders here over an established, professional review site like DPR?

I'm not asking your to trust me or anyone else.  I couldn't care less.  I'm just stating my opinion, just like you.

But when you are a "professional review site" as you say, you'd expect DPR not to get the D7100's high ISO performance wrong, where they placed the D7100 near the bottom for high ISO performance.  That doesn't inspire much confidence.    If the D7100 high ISO ability is "near the bottom of APS-C sensor cameras" as DPR claims in the review, then so is the D7000, D5200, and D5100 high ISO performance "near the bottom" for APS-C sensor cameras.

Fortunately we have sites like DxOMark who know how to properly test cameras for low-light/high ISO performance.

Let's see what else has DPR, your so-called "professional review site" claimed over the past year?  Here's a good one: "for the majority of users to get better IQ than the Olympus OMD you need to go to FF" (From DPR OMD review - paraphrasing is mine).

If you want to read the above statement about the OMD as the truth because DPR said it, that's fine.  I prefer to analyse IQ performance form cameras that I own, and to learn from other professional testing sites.  I've used an E-PL5 and a D7000 quite a lot, and I can tell you for sure that the E-PL5/OMD doesn't have as good IQ as the D7000.  Not does it have as good IQ as the K-5, D5100, D5200, X-Pro1, X100, NEX-7, et al. But DPR would have people believe that it does as they are using a confusing wording like "for the majority of users".  It the same kind of caveat as "real-world" in their D7100 AA-filter discussion.  For the "majority of users" the to get better IQ than the OMD, you need to go to FF is similar to "The lack of OLPF doesn't make a difference in real-world, practical terms".   Either the OMD IQ is as good as the best of APS-C or it is not.  "For the majority of users" has nothing to do with it.  Either the lack of OLPF in the D7100 makes a difference or it doesn't.  "Real world usage" is an assumption with a huge number of variables and differing interpretations for it to be useful.  Like the phrase "for the majority of users", the phrase "real-world usage" is inextricably tied to DPR's bias.  And as such, it's not useful.  No two photographers shoot the exact same subject, with the exact same technique.  So how does DPR know what "real-world usage" is?  They are making too many assumptions about what "real-world shooting is" for such a nebulous term to be useful for potential D7100 customers.

The evidence is overwhelming, yet this nonsense persists, it is quite remarkable.


For more discerning users there is a difference, as others above have pointed out.

No there isn't, it is an imaginary advantage that is misleading people and not helping those who genuinely want to know what this camera is like.

And talking about "more discerning users" is utterly ridiculous in that a discerning user wouldn't bother with imaginary advantages.

As it stands there are other outstanding features of this camera that makes this discussion largely irrelevant, but we shouldn't pretend it is more than what it is.

DPR gave the damned thing a gold award and people are still complaining it isn't good enough. Let the D7100's real merits stand, not the imaginary advantages pushed by fanboys.

Again, if you can see that D7100 images are sharper than D5200 images in the RAW Studio Test at f8 (a diffraction limited aperture), you can be sure that D7100 images are sharper than the D5200 images at f4. Amadu Diallo even says in the Review comments that "yes if you shoot at f3.5 on a 50 1.4, you will see a difference".  Because there is not "practical" advantage to you or DPR doesn't mean there is not one to me or anyone else.  You cannot make assumptions about users of such a camera as if they are amateurs or beginners shopping for a D3100 and kit lens. This is a high end / enthusiast DSLR, so it's not a stretch to thin such users might have a set of great Nikkors.

If the added acutance has "no practical advantage" for you, that's another issue.   I'm not here to convince anybody, just stating my view like anyone else.  I don't even shoot APS-C, nor am I interested in whether or not people like or hate the D7100. People are going to use what they can afford, or what gives them the best possible images.

I just find the sensational headline "Confirmed" about as silly as it get's in there forums.  Nothing is confirmed other than the fact that DPR has it's own biases, it's own conclusions.  And like their flat out wrong opinion that "for the majority of users to get better IQ than the OMD you need to go to FF", their absurd conclusion that the lack of OLPF in the D7100 is dependent on how people shoot in some arbitrary "real world usage" so that means that "essentially there is no difference".

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Jared Huntr
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Re: The only thing around here less credible
In reply to Whalligeo, Apr 26, 2013
Whalligeo wrote:

Shunda77 wrote:

Whalligeo wrote:


I didn't bother to read the DPR review,

Then you aren't even qualified to comment.

This is getting utterly ridiculous.

The pixel peepers don't even have to read the review to have an opinion on the review! truly amazing talent!!

I am more qualified than you think.

You have taken what I have said out of context. To get the true meaning read ALL of my comment. If you don't like it, use the forum block facility, thats what its there for.

Good. Someone that knows what they are talking about.

Can you please describe a practical use-case where the difference in IQ caused by the removal of the AA filter on the D7100 makes a difference? Please describe the post processing steps taken that would preserve such a miniscule difference.

Note: we are discussing the D7100 only, not other models like the D800.

(this is a serious question. I'm open to your viewpoint if you can prove it)

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