Confirmed: No practical advantage to removing D7100 AA filter

Started Apr 25, 2013 | Discussions
Reilly Diefenbach
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Re: Exactly
In reply to fotolopithecus, Apr 26, 2013

DP is not the only testing site that said it made no difference Reilly.

I assume you're referring to the discredited Camerawhoosis test with jpgs?

Next!

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Mako2011
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In reply to Reilly Diefenbach, Apr 26, 2013

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

Jared Huntr wrote:

Not that it is surprising, but it seems the cheerleading squad from the Cameralabs D7100 review mega-thread here:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51316314

were wrong about how the lack of an AA filter makes a useful difference.

According to dpr:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-d7100/18

"In short, even if you were willing to put the best glass available on the D7100 and shoot at a wide aperture, you're not likely, even with a lot of effort, to leverage visible benefits of the OLPF removal. While this may be a bit of a disappointment for some, the very good news is that to date we've seen no practical downside to the filter's removal for still photography. It is essentially neutral with regard to image quality."

Nikon agrees and it's why the filter was left out of the process.

No, I'm sorry, Nikon does not agree with that premise.

Yes they they do. They told me so.

They left the filter out because they wanted to blow every other manufacturer out of the water for detail and microcontrast, just as they did with the D800e, and that they have done without any doubt.

Wishful thinking. Nikon is a manufacturing company first, not a bunch of photographers passionate about photography.

Canon executives must be grinding their teeth to the gums in helpless envy by now
M

Some guy at CES told you they just did it for no particular advantage?  That doesn't sound right.

Not CES

The Nikon lens list for the D800e was not just hooey, they were trying to get people to use the right optics to take full advantage of the increased resolution.

They indicated what they learned from the D800e was that no filter was needed so they didn't add one to the D7100. Simple as that. Keeps costs down.

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Reilly Diefenbach
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If I can see it
In reply to Mako2011, Apr 26, 2013

with no problem, and I can, then it's a very practical difference.  The D5200 puts out a low contrast, soft-looking file compared to the D7100, and I'm hardly the only one who's noticed.  If the theoreticians, some of whom post to this forum without benefit of ownership of any Nikon camera cannot, then by all means continue to argue the number of angels on the head of a pin.  It's harmless enough :^)

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Mako2011
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In reply to Reilly Diefenbach, Apr 26, 2013

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

with no problem, and I can, then it's a very practical difference.

I can understand that, it might have a practical difference for you. I can see it to at very high magnification. That's often not a practical difference for me...especially given good PP.

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David A. Hamments
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Re: Wishful
In reply to Reilly Diefenbach, Apr 26, 2013

Some guy at CES told you they just did it for no particular advantage?  That doesn't sound right.  The Nikon lens list for the D800e was not just hooey, they were trying to get people to use the right optics to take full advantage of the increased resolution.   DXO even measured the "e" at a perceived sharpness score 25% better than the D800 before all hell broke loose and they had to take it down.  Sounded about right to me.  Same deal with the D7100.  The 18-105Vr will show better with the D7100 than it ever did with the D7000 or the D5200, but top quality lenses put it in a different orbit altogether.  So DPR got that half right.

I know competitiveness when I see it, and it's written all over all the mid to upper Nikon product.  Sony, too, to the best of their ability.  Nikon just has the best engineers for now, and it shows they are in it to win.

I agree with Reilly... FWIW my kit 18-105 definitely appears sharper on my D7100 than it does on my D7000.  Images seem to "pop" a little more than before as well.
Cheers, D. Hamments
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Reilly Diefenbach
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Re: Wishful
In reply to David A. Hamments, Apr 26, 2013

I agree with Reilly... FWIW my kit 18-105 definitely appears sharper on my D7100 than it does on my D7000.  Images seem to "pop" a little more than before as well.
Cheers, D. Hamments
My Flickr Page: http://www.flickr.com/photos/dhamments2013/

Courtesy of no AA filter.  Hear it now, folks, believe it after you've actually used it.

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Mako2011
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Very diffrent
In reply to David A. Hamments, Apr 26, 2013

David A. Hamments wrote:

Some guy at CES told you they just did it for no particular advantage?  That doesn't sound right.  The Nikon lens list for the D800e was not just hooey, they were trying to get people to use the right optics to take full advantage of the increased resolution.   DXO even measured the "e" at a perceived sharpness score 25% better than the D800 before all hell broke loose and they had to take it down.  Sounded about right to me.  Same deal with the D7100.  The 18-105Vr will show better with the D7100 than it ever did with the D7000 or the D5200, but top quality lenses put it in a different orbit altogether.  So DPR got that half right.

I know competitiveness when I see it, and it's written all over all the mid to upper Nikon product.  Sony, too, to the best of their ability.  Nikon just has the best engineers for now, and it shows they are in it to win.

I agree with Reilly... FWIW my kit 18-105 definitely appears sharper on my D7100 than it does on my D7000.

yes...it should. The D7K is a much different sensor that the D7100 with much lower resolution (16 vs 24) . I was speaking of practical dif between D5200 and D7100 regards sharpness

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Mako2011
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Big difference
In reply to Reilly Diefenbach, Apr 26, 2013

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

I agree with Reilly... FWIW my kit 18-105 definitely appears sharper on my D7100 than it does on my D7000.  Images seem to "pop" a little more than before as well.
Cheers, D. Hamments
My Flickr Page: http://www.flickr.com/photos/dhamments2013/

Courtesy of no AA filter.  Hear it now, folks, believe it after you've actually used it.

The difference in sharpness D7000 to D7100 is due more to the difference in resolution and not AA filter. Sharpness is affected by resolution. The cameras differ greatly in terms of resolving power.

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Patco
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Re: Does it really matter?
In reply to howielenny, Apr 26, 2013

howielenny wrote:

I've come from the d7000 to the d7100. Personally from my own perspective my images are slightly sharper straight out of camera with the d7100 compared to my old d7000. If that's down to the AA filter or not I don't really care to be honest

That has more to do with the 50% increase in MP than the AA filter, I would think.

In any case, it appears to be a very fine camera.

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Patco
A photograph is more than a bunch of pixels

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stuntmonkey
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Re: Does it really matter?
In reply to Patco, Apr 26, 2013

Patco wrote:

howielenny wrote:

I've come from the d7000 to the d7100. Personally from my own perspective my images are slightly sharper straight out of camera with the d7100 compared to my old d7000. If that's down to the AA filter or not I don't really care to be honest

That has more to do with the 50% increase in MP than the AA filter, I would think.

In any case, it appears to be a very fine camera.

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Patco
A photograph is more than a bunch of pixels

My feeling is that it's a combination of the two. If it were just 24mp, or if it were just no AA, it might not be that compelling of an upgrade, but both put together give a tangible, if sometimes subjective, improvement over the D7000. And a fine camera it is.

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Mako2011
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In reply to stuntmonkey, Apr 26, 2013

stuntmonkey wrote:

Patco wrote:

howielenny wrote:

I've come from the d7000 to the d7100. Personally from my own perspective my images are slightly sharper straight out of camera with the d7100 compared to my old d7000. If that's down to the AA filter or not I don't really care to be honest

That has more to do with the 50% increase in MP than the AA filter, I would think.

In any case, it appears to be a very fine camera.

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Patco
A photograph is more than a bunch of pixels

My feeling is that it's a combination of the two. If it were just 24mp, or if it were just no AA, it might not be that compelling of an upgrade, but both put together give a tangible, if sometimes subjective, improvement over the D7000. And a fine camera it is.

Remember what Nikon and testing seems to show regards the D7100....the is no difference between a AA and no AA with this body. Hence the dif is something else or a combination of somethings.

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RichRMA
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Re: The only thing around here less credible
In reply to Reilly Diefenbach, Apr 26, 2013

Regardless of resolution difference, what I've seen is that a mild fog is lifted with the removal of the filter.  The difference was clear on the D800.  Importantly, it looked like doing it resulted in stopping down the lens.  Almost like a layer of hazing spherical aberration was eliminated.  This has no impact on resolution, but it does result in "better" looking images.

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marike6
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Re: Confirmed: No practical advantage to removing D7100 AA filter
In reply to Jared Huntr, Apr 26, 2013

If DPR cannot see the difference between the D5200 and D7100 in terms of sharpness, then they are not looking closely enough.  And all this talk about "real world" is utter nonsense.  If the D5200 and D7100 show a difference in the RAW Comparison, then they will show a difference in general shooting out in the field if both cameras are shot with the same technique, the same lenses and off the same tripod.

If DPR is trying to say that "with handheld snapshots it's hard to see a difference", that totally different than asserting that there is "no difference at all".

And because they say "there is no practical advantage", it's clear that they mean that for snapshots in the park, they can't tell the difference.  But it is kind of lame for a testing site to keep using silly caveats like "the real world". What real world is that?  Either there is a difference or there isn't.  Tests are about empirical data, not general impressions based on what they think real world usage of this camera will be.

But just like D800E out-resolves the D800, the D7100 out-resolves the D5200.  And it has zero to do with "best lenses" or any other made up caveat that DPR is trying to sell it's readers.  The D800E out-resolves the D800 because it doesn't have an OLPF to blur detail to control moire and the same is true for the D7100 and D5200.

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marike6
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Re: The only thing around here less credible
In reply to Jared Huntr, Apr 26, 2013

Jared Huntr wrote:

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

is DPR's reviewing staff who apparently won't look at their own comparison widget which clearly shows a difference between the D5200 and the D7100.

DPR never said there wasn't a difference.

"Our conclusion after viewing dozens of comparisons was that outside the controlled environment of our studio, even extremely minor shifts in focus or (potentially) sensor alignment could trump the absence of an OLPF in accounting for any visible differences between the D7100 and D5200."

The take-away is that there is no PRACTICAL advantage. I'm not sure why that concept is so difficult to grasp.

That of course depends on how you define "practical".  For a macro or studio photographer looking to squeeze every last bit of difference out of his gear, the advantage of the D7100 is tangible.

What I think DPR is trying to imply actually should offend quite a large number of photographers, as it would see they are trying to argue that "for most amateurs" the D7100 is not going to make much difference.  Which again, is not true at all, since there are some extraordinarily talented amateurs who shoot using painstakingly good technique with very good lenses.  Again for such a user a camera like the D7100 is has a very real "practical" advantage in terms of IQ over other models.

The D7100 is not a snapshot camera to be used as a big P&S, yet for some bizarre reason DPR seems to think this is how most people use such a camera in the "real world" (or whatever they think "real world" usage is).

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Reilly Diefenbach
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Re: The only thing around here less credible
In reply to RichRMA, Apr 26, 2013

Actually, it does have an impact on resolution of fine detail.  Here it is again for those who missed it the first time.  Same exact lens, lighting and still life.  This spread tallies perfectly with normal pics we've seen.

You can sharpen the D5200 'til you're blue in the face, but it can never look as sharp or as contrasty as the D7100. All you'll do is make a crunchy mess.   This scales up and is easily visible at zero on any decent monitor.

D5200

D7100

Now, don't get me wrong.  The D5200 is good in its own way.  It outresolves the D7000 with no trouble at all.  It's just a different, milder look than what we're used to.  To say there's no "practical difference" is just wrong.  It's as plain as the difference between any two similar cameras has ever bee, especially ones with the same sensor.  The D7100 brings back the slamming contrast of the D7000 with a good deal more refinement and adds a large dose of fine detail.

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Jared Huntr
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Re: The only thing around here less credible
In reply to marike6, Apr 26, 2013
marike6 wrote:

Jared Huntr wrote:

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

is DPR's reviewing staff who apparently won't look at their own comparison widget which clearly shows a difference between the D5200 and the D7100.

DPR never said there wasn't a difference.

"Our conclusion after viewing dozens of comparisons was that outside the controlled environment of our studio, even extremely minor shifts in focus or (potentially) sensor alignment could trump the absence of an OLPF in accounting for any visible differences between the D7100 and D5200."

The take-away is that there is no PRACTICAL advantage. I'm not sure why that concept is so difficult to grasp.

That of course depends on how you define "practical".  For a macro or studio photographer looking to squeeze every last bit of difference out of his gear, the advantage of the D7100 is tangible.

Defining practical means you have to tell us how you present your images in practice. Not test images, not comparison images, but images your are taking to present to others for viewing.

Surely you don't simply display them at 100% on the monitor and expect your viewers to look at only a small portion of the image at the pixel level forcing them to manually scroll the image around with a mouse to enjoy the entire image?! Is that how YOU define practical?

If not, how?

Just be clear that the second you resample the pixels in any manner, or view the original image at any zoom level smaller than 100%, the differences with be indistinguishable. So where's the practical difference?

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Jared Huntr
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Re: The only thing around here less credible
In reply to RichRMA, Apr 26, 2013

RichRMA wrote:

Regardless of resolution difference, what I've seen is that a mild fog is lifted with the removal of the filter.  The difference was clear on the D800.  Importantly, it looked like doing it resulted in stopping down the lens.  Almost like a layer of hazing spherical aberration was eliminated.  This has no impact on resolution, but it does result in "better" looking images.

Maybe you missed my disclaimer above: "And before anyone attempts to extrapolate these results into a general statement that removing AA filters make no difference, DON'T. We are only referring to the D7100."

Removing the AA filter can make a ton of difference in some cameras. It's just that the D7100 is not one of those.

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pipee
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Re: The only thing around here less credible
In reply to Reilly Diefenbach, Apr 26, 2013

Your D5200 may be back focused.

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joaquin100
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Re: Confirmed: No practical advantage to removing D7100 AA filter
In reply to Jared Huntr, Apr 26, 2013

Jared Huntr wrote:

Those cheerleaders can now be added to my 'less credible' folder for future reference.

The only credible confirmation:

"If you not agree with me you are a cheerleader"

Hey Guys, you better agree.

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AdamT
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The Pixel cramming has crept up so far
In reply to Jared Huntr, Apr 26, 2013

The Pixel cramming has crept up so far that AA filter removal has far less effect than it did on the AA-less 14Mp Full frame Kodaks and the almost non-existant AAs in the 4Mp 1D Mk1 and in the 6Mp D70 (All of which made the softest of zooms look  like primes sharpness wise) . of course the other side of the coin is that Moire and false detail isn`t much of an issue which it was to a serious degree with the Kodaks and the 1D / D70 (the D70 pulled more detail from a scene than the D80 with mediocre lenses, the 1D Mk1 nailed the 6Mp D60 in all instances for resolution and killed the ultra-soft coke bottle AA`d Nikon D100) ..

No (or almot no) AA usually means that all your lenses are a lot sharper (compare a D70 to any other 6Mp DSLR especially the D100), the degree by how much this happens gets lesser as the pixel pitch gets smaller but so do the hard to remove irritating side effects - Tweed suits + D70 or 1DMk1 = hard work in PP, the D7100 should be far less of an issue

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