Just published: Our in-depth Nikon D7100 review

Started Apr 25, 2013 | Discussions
rhlpetrus
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Jpeg x Raw and practical meaning and best setting=Portrait
In reply to coudet, Apr 27, 2013

coudet wrote:

greg606 wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong but does the charts suggest better dynamic range than for D800?

It absolutely does not have better dynamic range than D800.

And this might be helpful: LINK.

DPR tests the photographic jpeg DR, meaning what you get from the default tone curves available. If one works with the RAWs, the extra DR of either the D600 or D800 would show up. But, in practice and real shooting situations, even with good RAW routines, I doubt most would see any difference.

The DPR DR graph for the various modes confirms my experience with the D7000 that Portarit is the best balanced mode in general:

They don't include Neutral, but IMExp, Neutral gives too flat midtones compared to portrait, and actually no real gain in DR. The colors and mistone contrast are alos a positive point of Portrait mode, a good startint point for PPing images, even landscapes.

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photoreddi
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Re: Just published: Our in-depth Nikon D7100 review
In reply to mosswings, Apr 27, 2013

mosswings wrote:

KenHanson wrote:

...

Modern Nikons can convert an (actually save another) image stored as a pure RAW file into a JPEG file with several editing and rendering options totally within the camera.  This can be useful if you decide, for example, that you want to upload a JPG, suitably cropped or rendered, to a computer or a social networking site, or to display for a client.

Yes, I know all that. I guess I didn't make myself clear. My question is whether the D7100 does any processing on the data that it outputs as the raw file?

The statement in the review seems to indicate that it may, which contradicts my understanding that the raw files contains the sensor measurements without any processing, except possibly to compress the data.

RAW is never really truly "raw" anymore, just minimally processed.  The sensor measurements are encoded and a lot of low level processing is done on the signal to reduce and balance noise contributions.  Long Exposure NR is an example of this: a dark frame subtraction is done.  High ISO NR is another.

Another example is Nikon's Hot Pixel Suppression algorithm, discovered by a DPR forum regular whose findings (taken to Nikon, JP by Thom Hogan) eventually resulted in improved algorithms.

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/50866721

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KenHanson
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Re: Just published: Our in-depth Nikon D7100 review
In reply to mosswings, Apr 27, 2013

mosswings wrote:

...

Yes, I know all that. I guess I didn't make myself clear. My question is whether the D7100 does any processing on the data that it outputs as the raw file?

The statement in the review seems to indicate that it may, which contradicts my understanding that the raw files contains the sensor measurements without any processing, except possibly to compress the data.

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Ken Hanson

RAW is never really truly "raw" anymore, just minimally processed.  The sensor measurements are encoded and a lot of low level processing is done on the signal to reduce and balance noise contributions.  Long Exposure NR is an example of this: a dark frame subtraction is done.  High ISO NR is another.

So, this is what I am getting at. I am not sure what "a lot of low level processing" means but it comes close to the question I posed. You mention reducing noise. Is that Noise Reduction, and is it affected by the NR camera setting? What evidence do you have to support your claim?

The reason for my question is there is a general consensus in the community that raw means raw, that is, sensor data are not changed by the camera, except to encode them for output to the memory card.

By "encoding" I suppose you mean changing data format, for example, compression, either lossy or loss-less or changing 14-bit to 12-bit. This process does not change the data in an essential way, because in the computer the data steam will be decoded to reproduce the original data, at least approximately. For me, this process does not alter the original sensor data significantly.

Long Exposure NR is a special function, so it is understandable that the camera has to do some processing on the raw data. Same with the dead-pixel correction that I believe is built into the camera.

My original question was for the EDITORS: what did they mean in their review by "in-camera raw processing"? I thought they could add some definitive information that would be useful in these types of discussions.

I wait to hear from them.

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DaytonR
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Re: They did
In reply to Reilly Diefenbach, Apr 27, 2013

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

sshoihet wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

Unfortunate that the staff couldn't see the difference between the D5200 and the D7100.  Maybe if they had looked here.

They did see the difference...and noted well it's impact in practical terms

We tell people not to pixel peep and then say "there's a difference", but it's only noticeable by pixel peeping.  No wonder people are confused

There's no practical difference, and for most, there won't be an appreciable difference between the D7000 and D5200/D7100.

As a D800e owner, I can say without any question that there is a major practical difference on each and every shot I take compared to the D7000 I owned and put 30K shots on.  It's not subtle or hard to spot at all.  It's there in the slamming color intensity and delicate airy filigreed details visible at any magnification, not just pixel peeping time.  It's breathtaking, and a dream come true for one who has done the whole gamut from Brownie to 4X5 and each stop along the digital path.

You guys will get it sooner or later, when you upgrade and your whole perception of what is sharp and what isn't will get moved up a major notch.  The fact that Nikon has come alarmingly close to the D800 with the D7100 is a great achievement, one which will evidently take some time to appreciate.  There's nothing new here.  Just as the D7000 did for the D90, so the D7100 will do for the 16MP cameras.

Looking at the studio shots I agree with your sentiment, to me there is a noticeable difference in the sharpness and also in the way the colors come out from the D7100 compared to the D5200. If it was my money I certainly know which of the two cameras I would pick ....

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mosswings
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Re: Just published: Our in-depth Nikon D7100 review
In reply to KenHanson, Apr 27, 2013

KenHanson wrote:

mosswings wrote:

...

Yes, I know all that. I guess I didn't make myself clear. My question is whether the D7100 does any processing on the data that it outputs as the raw file?

The statement in the review seems to indicate that it may, which contradicts my understanding that the raw files contains the sensor measurements without any processing, except possibly to compress the data.

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Ken Hanson

RAW is never really truly "raw" anymore, just minimally processed.  The sensor measurements are encoded and a lot of low level processing is done on the signal to reduce and balance noise contributions.  Long Exposure NR is an example of this: a dark frame subtraction is done.  High ISO NR is another.

So, this is what I am getting at. I am not sure what "a lot of low level processing" means but it comes close to the question I posed. You mention reducing noise. Is that Noise Reduction, and is it affected by the NR camera setting? What evidence do you have to support your claim?

The reason for my question is there is a general consensus in the community that raw means raw, that is, sensor data are not changed by the camera, except to encode them for output to the memory card.

By "encoding" I suppose you mean changing data format, for example, compression, either lossy or loss-less or changing 14-bit to 12-bit. This process does not change the data in an essential way, because in the computer the data steam will be decoded to reproduce the original data, at least approximately. For me, this process does not alter the original sensor data significantly.

Long Exposure NR is a special function, so it is understandable that the camera has to do some processing on the raw data. Same with the dead-pixel correction that I believe is built into the camera.

My original question was for the EDITORS: what did they mean in their review by "in-camera raw processing"? I thought they could add some definitive information that would be useful in these types of discussions.

I wait to hear from them.

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Ken Hanson

With pleasure, I will wait to hear too.  If you don't hear from the editors on this specific post, it might be a good idea to PM them directly (they rarely interact with forum members), or to look up posts by the following forum members: bobn2, Jack Hogan, Detail Man, Iliah Borg, Marianne Oelund, Thom Hogan, to name but a few.  All have direct experience with this subject and have posted on it in the past.

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river251
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Re: Just published: Our in-depth Nikon D7100 review
In reply to Amadou Diallo, Apr 30, 2013

Amadou Diallo wrote:

Hey everyone,

Just wanted to let you know we've put up our 25-page Nikon D7100 review. Does the lack of an AA filter have a meaningful effect? Is low light performance as good as the D600? Is moiré an issue for video shooters? And most importantly, What's that little 'i' button on the back of the camera for? Click here to find out.

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Amadou Diallo
dpreview.com

Didn't DPReview previously make very detailed comparisons between a camera and competitors in in-depth reviews? In this case I expected to see much discussion contrasting the D7100 and D7000 in various ways, especially resolution and image quality. As it is, I'm left with vague statements that the D7100 bests the D7000 but little discussion of the details. The D7000 is barely mentioned in the review. Publishing reviews that state "this camera is great, give it a gold" mean nothing without drawing close, demonstrable contrasts between it and competitors. After reading this review, I have no idea HOW MUCH better the D7100 is.

Has DPReview decided not to offend anybody, and not really compare cameras....making their in depth reviews pretty useless?

Jim

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kewlguy
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Re: Just published: Our in-depth Nikon D7100 review
In reply to river251, Apr 30, 2013

If you use the comparison tool, I think you can see that D5200 beats D7000 already

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river251
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Re: Just published: Our in-depth Nikon D7100 review
In reply to kewlguy, Apr 30, 2013

kewlguy wrote:

If you use the comparison tool, I think you can see that D5200 beats D7000 already

Well maybe I just need to learn how to use DPReview reviews these days. I'm not very experienced, and I really learned a lot from DPR's detailed discussions of differences between a camera and similar cameras. I learned from them what matters. I don't trust myself to make those conclusions myself, like you all can, based on the posted images.

Perhaps after I keep my D7000 a few years I'll be able to understand things at a high enough level that I won't need DPR to provide long discussions comparing cameras but I miss that.

Still, it seems like they have abandoned direct comparison. I think I recall there has been discussion about it.

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rhlpetrus
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I have it for you
In reply to river251, Apr 30, 2013

river251 wrote:

kewlguy wrote:

If you use the comparison tool, I think you can see that D5200 beats D7000 already

Well maybe I just need to learn how to use DPReview reviews these days. I'm not very experienced, and I really learned a lot from DPR's detailed discussions of differences between a camera and similar cameras. I learned from them what matters. I don't trust myself to make those conclusions myself, like you all can, based on the posted images.

Perhaps after I keep my D7000 a few years I'll be able to understand things at a high enough level that I won't need DPR to provide long discussions comparing cameras but I miss that.

Still, it seems like they have abandoned direct comparison. I think I recall there has been discussion about it.

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You're as happy as you think you are.

D7100 = 85% Gold, D7000=80% Silver ...

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Tony Rogers
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Re: Just published: Our in-depth Nikon D7100 review
In reply to KenHanson, Apr 30, 2013
My original question was for the EDITORS: what did they mean in their review by "in-camera raw processing"? I thought they could add some definitive information that would be useful in these types of discussions.

I wait to hear from them.

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Ken Hanson

I'm not an editor but "in-camera raw processing" refers to the ability to produce a jpeg from a previously recorded raw image with adjustment of processing parameters such as color temperature.

NEF (RAW) Processing in the RETOUCH menu on the camera.

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SverreE
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Re: Very good review; thanks and a comment on DR
In reply to rhlpetrus, Apr 30, 2013

rhlpetrus wrote:

It confirms my impression that the D7100 is the top APS-C camera on the market at the moment. If only Nikon would make that buffer deeper, then it would be the almost perfect APS-C dslr.

DR is an outsting feature of the D7100 and Nikon ssem to have finally nailed a good balance between midtone contrast and DR tone curves, especially Portrait with ADL off (ADL, even low, looks a bit agressive for my taste, in particular the way it will likely flatten midtone contrast). Neutral shows a bit more DR but at midtone contrast cost, just like with the D7000.

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Look at another thread. 15 pictures with 7 fps with compressed 12 bit 1.3 crop before speed is reduced.

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rhlpetrus
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Re: Very good review; thanks and a comment on DR
In reply to SverreE, May 1, 2013

SverreE wrote:

rhlpetrus wrote:

It confirms my impression that the D7100 is the top APS-C camera on the market at the moment. If only Nikon would make that buffer deeper, then it would be the almost perfect APS-C dslr.

DR is an outsting feature of the D7100 and Nikon ssem to have finally nailed a good balance between midtone contrast and DR tone curves, especially Portrait with ADL off (ADL, even low, looks a bit agressive for my taste, in particular the way it will likely flatten midtone contrast). Neutral shows a bit more DR but at midtone contrast cost, just like with the D7000.

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Look at another thread. 15 pictures with 7 fps with compressed 12 bit 1.3 crop before speed is reduced.

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Sverre

It's ok if you are interested in the central part of image and happy with 12bits, but I still think they should have made it possible at full res and full bit depth, unless a D400 is coming next, always a possibility, but more and more unlikely. Canon may be bringing the 7D2 and it'll likely have deeper buffer and even higher fps at fullre/bit depth.

I think the point is that Nikon is sending a message that DX is not a pro option, since you cannot get NPS membership with the current updated DX line. Either you get the relatively old D300s or you need to get a D800 or D4 (not sure D600 entitles for NPS).

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jpdenk
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Re: They did
In reply to Reilly Diefenbach, May 1, 2013

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

As a D800e owner, I can say without any question that there is a major practical difference on each and every shot I take compared to the D7000 I owned and put 30K shots on.  It's not subtle or hard to spot at all.  It's there in the slamming color intensity and delicate airy filigreed details visible at any magnification, not just pixel peeping time.  It's breathtaking, and a dream come true for one who has done the whole gamut from Brownie to 4X5 and each stop along the digital path.

You guys will get it sooner or later, when you upgrade and your whole perception of what is sharp and what isn't will get moved up a major notch.  The fact that Nikon has come alarmingly close to the D800 with the D7100 is a great achievement, one which will evidently take some time to appreciate.  There's nothing new here.  Just as the D7000 did for the D90, so the D7100 will do for the 16MP cameras.

I took a look at your gallery, wonderful photos, very well done, nice and sharp even at full resolution, but regarding sharpness, I have much older camera bodies, a D70 and a D90, and sharpness is not an issue with them. When I do everything right and particularly when I shoot NEF's, I get superb sharpness, needle-sharp with fine detail even when pixel-peeping at 100% magnification, so I have to respectfully disagree with your statement regarding sharpness. If I get a chance later today, I'll upload some full resolution examples.

And color is outstanding with both my bodies, as long as exposure is good. I'd give the D800 a slight edge in noise at full resolution, of course, but it's not that big a difference.

Perhaps the older bodies require a bit more work to get the best results from them, but they can produce excellent image quality, not significantly inferior to the current models, in my opinion.

John

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Anada
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Re: I have it for you
In reply to rhlpetrus, May 1, 2013

And even D800 82 Gold and D800E 84 Gold

Only D600 is 90 Gold

So the D7100 Is VERY GOOD for all of us, I think.

Antti

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rhlpetrus
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Re: I have it for you
In reply to Anada, May 1, 2013

Anada wrote:

And even D800 82 Gold and D800E 84 Gold

Only D600 is 90 Gold

So the D7100 Is VERY GOOD for all of us, I think.

Antti

I was joking actually, these numbers don't mean much.

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BrierShot
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Red fringing?
In reply to Amadou Diallo, May 7, 2013

What is your take on the red fringing in the RAW studio scene images? (most noticeable on the right side of the cyan handle of the brush at the far left but visible in plenty of other places too) Want to call it "CA" but that same lens (model) has been used with countless other Nikon DX-format cameras and chromatic aberration isn't usually resolution-sensitive.

Checking other Nikon DX model studio shots with the same lens (well, same lens model) :

- does not show up in the jpeg version (so is something the camera's processing engine is "fixing")

- does show up in the D5200 RAW (so is not due to the OLPF removal)

- does not show up in the D3200 RAW (same pixel-count sensor)

- perhaps a hint in the D7000 RAW and even the D300S RAW (so maybe it really is CA that becomes more visible at higher resolutions (and doesn't speak well of the D3200 in that case))

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KenHanson
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Re: Just published: Our in-depth Nikon D7100 review
In reply to KenHanson, May 15, 2013

Just to address my question about the meaning of "in camera raw processing", here is the response I got from Amadou Diallo:

Message from Amadou Diallo

Sent on Tuesday, May 14, 2013 11:39:29 PM GMT

Hi Ken, We use the term to describe the ability to generate a new JPEG from an existing Raw file. This feature has only recently been adopted by Canon, for instance in its enthusiasts cameras, so we feel it still merits inclusion in the 'pros' column.

Thank you, Amadou

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Ken Hanson

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picgears
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Re: Just published: Our in-depth Nikon D7100 review
In reply to Amadou Diallo, May 15, 2013

Amadou Diallo wrote:

Hey everyone,

Just wanted to let you know we've put up our 25-page Nikon D7100 review. Does the lack of an AA filter have a meaningful effect? Is low light performance as good as the D600? Is moiré an issue for video shooters? And most importantly, What's that little 'i' button on the back of the camera for? Click here to find out.

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Amadou Diallo
dpreview.com

Thanks very much for the good article. But I was wondering why the studio test shots for D7100 was taken at F9 while D7000's at F8? Still, the 7100 seems to be darker.

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picgears
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Re: Just published: Our in-depth Nikon D7100 review
In reply to picgears, May 15, 2013

Thanks very much for the good article. But I was wondering why the studio test shots for D7100 was taken at F9 while D7000's at F8? Still, the 7100 seems to be darker.

Have to make a correction. I meant to say the D7100 was at F8 while D7000 was at F9. Looks like D7000 is 1/3 stop more sensitive than D7100 at same ISO rating.

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mosswings
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Re: Just published: Our in-depth Nikon D7100 review
In reply to KenHanson, May 15, 2013

KenHanson wrote:

Just to address my question about the meaning of "in camera raw processing", here is the response I got from Amadou Diallo:

Message from Amadou Diallo

Sent on Tuesday, May 14, 2013 11:39:29 PM GMT

Hi Ken, We use the term to describe the ability to generate a new JPEG from an existing Raw file. This feature has only recently been adopted by Canon, for instance in its enthusiasts cameras, so we feel it still merits inclusion in the 'pros' column.

Thank you, Amadou

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Ken Hanson

A useful clarification to an unfortunately crafted term that skirted far too close to the terminology used by the sensorgeeks on this forum and site and sent both of us down a blind alley.  A better phrase would have been "in-camera JPG rendering from RAW".

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