7d Mk II - This does not make sense!

Started Apr 25, 2013 | Discussions
tko
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why not the 5d III?
In reply to tvstaff, Apr 26, 2013

Seems like the 5d III is in your budget, available, and does what you want pretty much. AF in video is improved over the 7d but not great. No Wifi, but you can buy a WiFi card. Even has dual card slots so you put Wifi in one all the time.

Do you need the 10 FPS of the upcoming 7dII? The AF of the 5d III works great. I'm at a 99% keeper rate for AF - that's really good.

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qianp2k
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Re: 7d Mk II - This does not make sense!
In reply to tvstaff, Apr 26, 2013

I wish 7D II could be on APS-H 1.3x crop small-body that can support 1.6x crop mode with an option to use battery grid for 10fps, the best balance of IQ and reach. I know I am in minority group and it's a wishful thinking as it seems Canon has abandoned APS-H format.  The only issues are the cost and EF-S compatibility.  Personally I don't care it can use EF-S lenses or not as I only have one (EF-S) lens Sigma 17-50/2.8 OS.

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Re: 7d Mk II - This does not make sense!
In reply to tvstaff, Apr 26, 2013

tvstaff wrote:

nikkorwatcher wrote:

Sounds like the thread has been created with the childish assertion again that full-frame trumps everything else so the commoners should just crop for reach. Blah blah.

I don't think so.  Often I see how the 7D has better IQ than the 800/800E and even the 5D or 1D under some applications.

I'm going to have to agree with some other comments here when I say....huh???  I love my 7D but it doesn't best the D800 nor the 5DIII nor the 1D X in any way, shape, or form in the IQ arena.  The 7D is still very useful and it may be more suited to certain situations than those cameras, but there is no measure of image quality where it beats those cameras.

However, as technology changes and FF is improved upon, to the point, it's as good as Med Format / Film a lot of people will have tons of money invested in crop glass that will not work as well on a FF.  My 17-55 F2.8 USM IS is prime example. To some $1,100.00 is not a lot for glass, but for me it's not wood!

The 17-55 is one compelling reason to buy a crop body.  Full frame is great, but some people don't need or want that much depth of field, files that large, or to spend that much money.  I'd love to have a full frame camera, but it is no more of a valid sensor size than a "crop" sensor....and that's because all of these sizes are completely arbitrary.  "Full frame" only exists as the standard by which crops are judged or as the standard conversion for focal lengths because it has been around for so long and that's what many people understand.  There's no magical proportion or depth of field-to-focal length relationship that full frame was designed to take advantage of.

I like the fact that my 70-200 L f/2.8 II on my 7D is in reality a 100-300 of sorts.  However, in studio there is a clear advantage to the 5D III and also to a H5D-50MS if you want to go to an extream.

Yeah.  And?  Why aren't we all shooting with medium forma then?  Because the glass is heavy and expensive and the sensor can't match the speed of smaller sensors and the depth of field is just way too huge for a lot of people.  Sound familiar?

My concern is really where I like to shoot and at times it's not friendly.  Wet, cold, filled w/sand, hot, sand, heavy wind.....  I don't think that the H5D-50MS at $34,995.00even with free shipping is for me   Nor is the I DX at $5,500 based on what I need or like.

I want another body...  I don't want to invest in another crop body. So for me I want a FF Camera.

There are lots out there.  Like somebody else said, buy the 5DIII.  What's the issue?

Can you understand how someone would want Crop and FF bodies in their bags?  One is not better than the other unless they are used "Right" based on the "users needs".

Yes? 

Indeed.  And do you think a 7DII with a full frame sensor would cost less than the 5DIII?  I think you want something that can't exist for another few years.

Best regards Nikorwatcher,

TVSTAFF

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Richard
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Re: 5DmkIII
In reply to Wyville, Apr 26, 2013

Wyville wrote:

elfroggio wrote:

To get the 12 frames per second (raw) on the 1Dx, Canon needed 2 Digic 5+ and 1 Digic 4 (just for the autofocus itself).

That isn't just to get to 12 fps. The processing power is required for the metering, AF, tracking, all of which is much more advanced on the 1DX compared to a 7D/5DmkIII.

There are Sony DSLR's that can do 12fps, but which certainly do not have the processing power of the 1DX. So 12fps on one camera isn't always the same as 12fps on another. Certainly though, the physical size to move the parts in a full frame camera require extra engineering and cost compared to an APS-C camera. The 1DX for instance also has carbon fibre shutter blades to lower the weight, reduce vibration and add to the shutter life.

My bet is on 12 frames per second is the same as 12 frames per second on any camera if that's what the manufacturers specs states.

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NancyP
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I am with birdbrain - there is a market for pro/semi-pro crop camera
In reply to birdbrain, Apr 26, 2013

And I bet that fellow birdbrains are the big semi-pro market! Birding is a HUGE hobby on which people spend significant amounts of money in travel and viewing/imaging equipment - let alone any general outdoor recreation category spending (camping, etc).

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kelpdiver
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Re: 5DmkIII
In reply to Richard, Apr 26, 2013

Richard wrote:

My bet is on 12 frames per second is the same as 12 frames per second on any camera if that's what the manufacturers specs states.

12fps without full functionality around AF or exposure is not the same as 12fps with it.  Or 10fps on the NEX6 even though it's really not able to track subjects that well, so 6 of them will be out of focus.  Just as offering X megapixels on a 1/2.3" sensor isn't really the same resolution as X megapixels on a FF sensor.

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meland
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Re: 7d Mk II - This does not make sense!
In reply to howardroark, Apr 26, 2013

howardroark wrote:


Yeah.  And?  Why aren't we all shooting with medium forma then?  Because the glass is heavy and expensive and the sensor can't match the speed of smaller sensors and the depth of field is just way too huge for a lot of people.  Sound familiar?

Depth of field of medium format too huge?  Yes I'm sure you know what you mean but there will be people scratching their heads having read that.

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Greenville
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You want a $3,500 - $4,000 7d Mk II?
In reply to tvstaff, Apr 26, 2013

That is what you outlined in the feature set you posted, not a camera between the 6D and 5D MK3 but a camera above the MK3.

I personally don't see Canon going this route. I think the 7D II will be be an APS-C camera and positioned to go against the Nikon D400 (whenever it is released) and cost somewhere between $1,699 and $2K. Canon will also release a 70D with the same sensor that will be priced to compete with the D7100.

The big challenge for Canon is to develop a new sensor that is cost effective to produce and can compete against the latest Sony sensors.

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Re: 7d Mk II - This does not make sense!
In reply to meland, Apr 26, 2013

meland wrote:

howardroark wrote:


Yeah.  And?  Why aren't we all shooting with medium forma then?  Because the glass is heavy and expensive and the sensor can't match the speed of smaller sensors and the depth of field is just way too huge for a lot of people.  Sound familiar?

Depth of field of medium format too huge?  Yes I'm sure you know what you mean but there will be people scratching their heads having read that.

LOL...yeah.  Sometimes when I say "depth of field" I automatically assume it implies a narrow depth of field.....in which case the huge would imply the magnitude of its relative thinness.  Makes perfect sense, right?!     The ability of medium format to produce a very narrow depth of field is much greater than that of smaller sensors.

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Hank3152
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Re: You want a $3,500 - $4,000 7d Mk II?
In reply to Greenville, Apr 26, 2013

Greenville wrote:

I personally don't see Canon going this route. I think the 7D II will be be an APS-C camera and positioned to go against the Nikon D400 (whenever it is released) and cost somewhere between $1,699 and $2K.

I'd pay up $2700 if they got the rumored newer sensors, processors, 10fps and the improved AF system akin to a mini 1DX.......

If it's above that I'd have to consider the 5DIII more carefully..........

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Lee Jay
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Re: You want a $3,500 - $4,000 7d Mk II?
In reply to Hank3152, Apr 26, 2013

Hank3152 wrote:

Greenville wrote:

I personally don't see Canon going this route. I think the 7D II will be be an APS-C camera and positioned to go against the Nikon D400 (whenever it is released) and cost somewhere between $1,699 and $2K.

I'd pay up $2700 if they got the rumored newer sensors, processors, 10fps and the improved AF system akin to a mini 1DX.......

That would be for a crop sensor.  The same specs (and the same pixel density) with a full-frame sensor mean doubling or more that amount.

If it's above that I'd have to consider the 5DIII more carefully..........

To me, they're totally different.  Neither is a replacement for the other.

Personally, I'd like a 7DII with all the goodies (including a low read noise sensor) for $1,999 and a 5DIIIn with nothing changed except for a low read noise sensor for $2,999 (street, after 3-9 months).  I'd buy them both.

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Hank3152
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Re: You want a $3,500 - $4,000 7d Mk II?
In reply to Lee Jay, Apr 26, 2013

ljfinger wrote:

Hank3152 wrote:

Greenville wrote:

I personally don't see Canon going this route. I think the 7D II will be be an APS-C camera and positioned to go against the Nikon D400 (whenever it is released) and cost somewhere between $1,699 and $2K.

I'd pay up $2700 if they got the rumored newer sensors, processors, 10fps and the improved AF system akin to a mini 1DX.......

That would be for a crop sensor.  The same specs (and the same pixel density) with a full-frame sensor mean doubling or more that amount.

Yes, I'd prefer the APS-C sensor

If it's above that I'd have to consider the 5DIII more carefully..........

To me, they're totally different.  Neither is a replacement for the other.

True, I've had both the 7D and 5DII, and sold them both for a 1DmkIV which I thought was a great compromise and the best of both worlds, except I'd like to return to the smaller 7D/5D body.

......so it'll be a toss between the 7DII and 5DIII which may be decided on price point and rumored features........then most likely sell the 1D4......

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katman68
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End result of my wet 7D....
In reply to andrewsf, Apr 26, 2013

andrewsf wrote:

Mine got rained on and stopped working. Canon refused to repair as they stated "The camera isn't weather sealed, it's weather resistant"

It's not as tough as the marketing initially made it out to be. Treat with common sense and care.

Andrew

Exactly how persistent were you Andrew, or did you take the word from some lower staff that doesn't know a SureShot from a 7D?

My 7D failed after being exposed to some rain, in a rainforest in N Madagascar(2 days before I was headed home). Canon initially pulled that warranty clause business with me. I made it clear under the specific conditions my 7D was exposed to that was not acceptable, and demanded to speak to a supervisor. Twice. The 3rd was the charm. He was very competent & asked specific questions, then investigated the service ctr situation w/the camera.

Without my asking, he had a NIB 7D w/all accessories sent Fed Ex overnight to me within a wk of our speaking. I'm not sure if my being a loyal Canon customer for 25 yrs played a part(nothing huge - the 7D was my 3rd body), or that it had a defective seal. I think both were factors. Despite the terrible situation of my 7D failing on a once-in-a-lifetime trip halfway around the planet, they definitely succeeded in keeping me a loyal customer with flying colors.

Some like to harp about bad service experiences at Canon, but I can assure you won't get that quality of service from Nikon. I base this on poor experiences a friend has had w/Nikon, despite spending I bet $20k plus w/them (and we're talking $5-6000 Nikon D3 bodies too!). It depends on the specific situation(and I've gathered my result isn't the norm), but I have to wonder how many just accept what the first person at Canon tells them?

Cheers,

Mark

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Matt
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In reply to tvstaff, Apr 27, 2013

tvstaff wrote:

Matt wrote:

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Hi Matt,

First I read this: http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/50713471

yeah ok digitalrev ...    The camera may survive dunked in water but may suffer long term damage from water creeping in there and being in there

then I see this... http://www.digitalrev.com/article/canon-7d-hardcore-durability-test/MjA0MjMyMTE_A  DO NOT DO THESE THINGS TO YOUR CAMERA

And this http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://alexsukonkin.com/reviews/Canon-EF17-40f4-L-USM/7d-frozen.jpg&imgrefurl=http://alexsukonkin.com/reviews/Canon-EF17-40f4-L-USM_en.shtml&h=555&w=800&sz=289&tbnid=M63uHzEbmjR3nM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=130&zoom=1&usg=__RWiWKxd08KPyCOiNwAVOkoseGJw=&docid=sQUNCpkFF2IzaM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=HBJ6UeHqJun84AP3tYFA&sqi=2&ved=0CEsQ9QEwAw&dur=9026

And This https://www.google.com/search?q=canon+7d+in+snow&safe=off&hl=en&qscrl=1&rlz=1T4ADFA_enUS482US482&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=HBJ6UeHqJun84AP3tYFA&sqi=2&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1395&bih=657#imgrc=co0uHBqITc8K1M%3A%3BbMd4TNk9rrliDM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Flaamc.files.wordpress.com%252F2010%252F01%252Fmg_0075c.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Flaamc.wordpress.com%252F2010%252F02%252F12%252F7d-1-weather-sealing%252F%3B692%3B422

And this http://cdn.bascek.com/yuklemeler//2011/05/canon7d-DzurenHamzah.jpg

Seems the 7D is one tough customer! 

Do you know what happened to all those cameras in the pictures? Were they still be funtional after the pic was taken or a week later?

Also a cold camera in snow is one thing as it will stay dry ...

what you get with a 7D and 5D3 is a slightly weather sealed camera that will survive a few raindrops and if you a re lucky a bit more.  If you want more sealing, get a pro camera or a water proof housing.

The reason why they are not more waterproof or water sealed is that most people use the camera inside and when its dry outside and that majority of customers are not willing to pay an extra 100-200 for more weather sealing.  if they were  and are outside all the time with their camera making money  they would have gotten a 1D or a waterproof housing of some sorts.

A lot of those features and full frame with same pixel density and 12 fps would be nice but would you pay $19000 for that camera? No? And neither would anybody else .... thats why it doesnt exist.

Technology advances constantly at a slight pace and thats why every 1-3 years you get a slightly improved camera at the same price.  If the competition is pushing hard then you get a slightly bigger improvement but you are not getting quantum leaps.

So you dont have to be a rocket scintist to predict the 7D2 if it comes out. It will be slightly improved all around. 18 MP to 20-24 MP. 8fps to 9-10 fps (or same hat higher pixels) 19 AF point to 19 better AF points or more AF points from a higher up camera.  Sensor technology has advanced and Nikon is pulling away so you will get better noise performance as well.

Why will this be true? Because if they do less, they wont sell a single camera and if they did way more they would be stupid and just drive up development and production cost and reduce their own profit.

So as was with 7D > 300S, the 7D2 will be a little more than 7D an probably 7100.  We wont have to wait for a dpreview review to know about its technical capabilities either. Canon will not produce a lemon and its sensor performance and noise will be a bit better.

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Matt
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In reply to tvstaff, Apr 27, 2013

tvstaff wrote:

Wyville wrote:

tvstaff wrote:

I really don't understand why Canon would make the new 7d Mk II anything BUT Full Frame.

As others have commented a full frame 7D is a 5DmkIII, so it wouldn't make sense for Canon to label an existing camera with a new name.

No it's not. A FF 7D is not a 5D.

The photo focus system
video focus system
controls
LCD size
frame
the DIGIC5+ is not the same as the Dual "Digic 4"
 the ISO ranges AND memory card use... not the same and more!

come on now ... lets not be silly

If you don't understand why the 7D is what it is, a high end APS-C sports/wildlife camera, then you are better off buying a 60D or a 6D.

What a condescending statement.

It would seem I understand quite well.  There are many important design and modality differences you should learn about.

Please uderstand my feelings about the camera I want.

what you want is exactly a 5D3 plus waterproof (which is a 1D or doesnt exist) Yes they cost more as those features cost.

TVSTAFF

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Matt
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Re: 5DmkIII
In reply to tvstaff, Apr 27, 2013

tvstaff wrote:

scorrpio wrote:

tvstaff wrote:

No it's not. A FF 7D is not a 5D.

The photo focus system
video focus system
controls
LCD size
frame
the DIGIC5+ is not the same as the Dual "Digic 4"
 the ISO ranges AND memory card use... not the same and more!

5D3 has a more advanced 61-point AF system.   Controls are about identical, LCD on 5D3 is bigger and has higher dot count, not sure what 'frame' means.

Well, ok, 5D3 is a single-CPU camera, and can handle only 6 fps.

7D is the flagship APS-C.   If you want speed of 7D in a full-frame, you have to be looking at the flagship FF, and that would be 1Dx.    And why the price a shock?   People who have that kind of demand on the body generally require some serious glass as well - and even a 'lowly' 300 f/2.8L II  costs more than a 1Dx body.

Scorrpio,

You make a good point on the price,

I just have not read the same on all the positives on weather sealing that I have on the 7D.  You even see pictures of the 7D in snow and people freeze it in water and it still works! <ROFL>

Canon themselves claims it has only very basic weather sealing, I would not call some internet photos proof that it is sealed (which per the designers is NOT)

If the 5d3 is as sound I'd be happy but one of the posters said they had trouble.

So there is anecdotal evidence vs one piece of anecdotal evidence? MY advise, go by what Canon claims and that is pretty much the same for both. If you must have real weather sealing then get a 1D or a housing or plastic sleeve.

If you go to the Canon site and compare the 7D side by side with the 5D, Canon states:  The EOS 7D features a magnesium alloy body that is dust and weather resistant.\

I cannot find the same SPECS on Canon's chart for the 5Dmk3.

I think Canon even knows that the 7D is indeed sealed very well and the ONLY camera that Canon claims is really sealed are their iD line of products.

You make a graet point that the 5D costs as much as one of my lenses so it's a great value.

Best regards to you.

I believe the claims from Canon of 7D and 5D3 are identical, if not then because they learned their lesson from calling the 7D weather sealed and dealing with loads of complaints from customers who thought their 7D is a submarine

Honestly ... if you want a great fast FF camera, then just get a 5D3 and be done with it and if you dont need to stick with Canon, pick a FF Nikon offering which currently may (or not) offer more for the money

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altair8800
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This makes more sense!
In reply to tvstaff, Apr 27, 2013

tvstaff wrote:

I really don't understand why Canon would make the new 7d Mk II anything BUT Full Frame.

Take a 1DX body and put in a 30Mp APS-C sensor. Hack off the useless grip part. Reduce price to $2500. Call it 1DXb. That will have similar probability as your dream.

Dan

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abi170845
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Re: 7d Mk II - This does not make sense!
In reply to tvstaff, Apr 27, 2013

my two and a half year 7d already has two red dead pixels at the sensor on the upper left hand(showing on the upper right hand of the file).  Did re mapping can't get rid of them.

It can't take the abuse as I hoped.  In the process of selling it and getting the 6D.

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altair8800
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Re: 7d Mk II - This does not make sense!
In reply to abi170845, Apr 27, 2013

abi170845 wrote:

my two and a half year 7d already has two red dead pixels at the sensor on the upper left hand(showing on the upper right hand of the file).  Did re mapping can't get rid of them.

It can't take the abuse as I hoped.  In the process of selling it and getting the 6D.

Good luck with your  FF equivalent of a Rebel.

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abi170845
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Re: 7d Mk II - This does not make sense!
In reply to altair8800, Apr 27, 2013

Thanks!

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