7d Mk II - This does not make sense!

Started Apr 25, 2013 | Discussions
andrewsf
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Re: So you want a 5D MkIII ?
In reply to tvstaff, Apr 26, 2013

Mine got rained on and stopped working. Canon refused to repair as they stated "The camera isn't weather sealed, it's weather resistant"

It's not as tough as the marketing initially made it out to be. Treat with common sense and care.

Andrew

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Wyville
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Re: 5DmkIII again
In reply to tvstaff, Apr 26, 2013

tvstaff wrote:

My concern is really where I like to shoot and at times it's not friendly.  Wet, cold, filled w/sand, hot, sand, heavy wind.....  I don't think that the H5D-50MS at $34,995.00even with free shipping is for me   Nor is the I DX at $5,500 based on what I need or like.

I want another body...  I don't want to invest in another crop body. So for me I want a FF Camera.

So buy a 5DmkIII. It has environmental seals, a FF sensor, a ton of performance. I don't really see the problem here.

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Wyville
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Re: So you want a 5D MkIII ?
In reply to andrewsf, Apr 26, 2013

andrewsf wrote:

Mine got rained on and stopped working. Canon refused to repair as they stated "The camera isn't weather sealed, it's weather resistant"

It's not as tough as the marketing initially made it out to be. Treat with common sense and care.

Andrew

Canon doesn't make weather sealed cameras in that sense. Even for the 1DX they advise to keep it dry...

The 7D is not a weather sealed camera. It should not under any circumstance get wet. It may survive some rain, however, there are no guarantees. If you need a camera with weather seals you should look into our EOS 1 series cameras.
To clarify, none of our cameras or lenses should be immersed under water. The EOS 1 series cameras and certain L series lenses do offer weather seals. These seals do not make the equipment water resistant or water proof. You should always try to keep the equipment dry.

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tvstaff
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Re: 5DmkIII
In reply to Wyville, Apr 26, 2013

Wyville wrote:

tvstaff wrote:

I really don't understand why Canon would make the new 7d Mk II anything BUT Full Frame.

As others have commented a full frame 7D is a 5DmkIII, so it wouldn't make sense for Canon to label an existing camera with a new name.

No it's not. A FF 7D is not a 5D.

The photo focus system
video focus system
controls
LCD size
frame
the DIGIC5+ is not the same as the Dual "Digic 4"
 the ISO ranges AND memory card use... not the same and more!

If you don't understand why the 7D is what it is, a high end APS-C sports/wildlife camera, then you are better off buying a 60D or a 6D.

What a condescending statement.

It would seem I understand quite well.  There are many important design and modality differences you should learn about.

Please uderstand my feelings about the camera I want.

TVSTAFF

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Wyville
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Re: 5DmkIII
In reply to tvstaff, Apr 26, 2013

tvstaff wrote:

No it's not. A FF 7D is not a 5D.

The photo focus system
video focus system
controls
LCD size
frame
the DIGIC5+ is not the same as the Dual "Digic 4"
 the ISO ranges AND memory card use... not the same and more!

Yes, the 5DmkIII is a newer camera and FF, so naturally it incorporates newer/different technologies. The 7DmkII will also feature newer/different technologies.

What a condescending statement.

It would seem I understand quite well.  There are many important design and modality differences you should learn about.

Please uderstand my feelings about the camera I want.

TVSTAFF

I actually don't understand your feelings. My comment is not meant to be condescending, you simply seem to know very little about the 7D/5DmkIII. The fact that in this thread you state: "I'd pull the trigger on the 5D today if it were sealed as well as the 7D." is testament to that. The 5DmkIII body is based on the 7D and they share the same type of environmental sealing, but neither is weather sealed.

The 5DmkIII really is a FF version of the 7D. Both have been built with a similar philosophy in mind. The main difference is in the sensor, APS-C vs. FF, where the 7D can take advantage of the smaller sensor size in terms of speed.

So I honestly don't see why you ignore the 5DmkIII, which is a camera that precisely meets your stated requirements.

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happysnapper64
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Re: 7d Mk II - This does not make sense!
In reply to altair8800, Apr 26, 2013

altair8800 wrote:

rdspear wrote:

tvstaff wrote:

I really don't understand why Canon would make the new 7d Mk II anything BUT Full Frame.

Seriously?

That's like not understanding why Porsche would design the next 911 with anything BUT four doors.

Yes, four doors, six seats and 100 HP.

I want one !!

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Mark B.
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Re: 7d Mk II - This does not make sense!
In reply to tvstaff, Apr 26, 2013

tvstaff wrote:

As a 7D owner... I would (want) think that Canon would make the 7d Mk II a must buy for those who enjoy the 7D.

Would it not have made sense for the 7d Mk II to have the following:

Full Frame

No, that would not make sense at all.

- Water and Dust Tight

Not sure it needs to be waterproof either.  I don't want to pay for a waterproof DSLR body.

- Auto Focus w/Video - More Cross Sections for Focus - Wifi

With just the above I think two things could happen. 7D owners would buy one as a step up for those of us that want Full Frame AND 5D Mk III owners that wanted a Water and Dust Tight backup.

I really don't understand why Canon would make the new 7d Mk II anything BUT Full Frame.

If YOU want FF, fine - go get the 5D, 6D or 1DX.  I don't want FF and I'm pretty sure most 7D owners would not want the successor to be.

Since I love my 7D and the abuse it can take, I was really hoping the new 7D MkII would fall between the 5D and 1D for some features I wanted at around the $2,500 to $3,000 range....

Too much.

Is there ANY chance this will be the case?? ANY?

Most likely not.

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nick101
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Re: 7d Mk II - This does not make sense!
In reply to tvstaff, Apr 26, 2013

tvstaff wrote:

As a 7D owner... I would (want) think that Canon would make the 7d Mk II a must buy for those who enjoy the 7D.

Would it not have made sense for the 7d Mk II to have the following:

Full Frame - Water and Dust Tight - Auto Focus w/Video - More Cross Sections for Focus - Wifi

With just the above I think two things could happen. 7D owners would buy one as a step up for those of us that want Full Frame AND 5D Mk III owners that wanted a Water and Dust Tight backup.

I really don't understand why Canon would make the new 7d Mk II anything BUT Full Frame.

Since I love my 7D and the abuse it can take, I was really hoping the new 7D MkII would fall between the 5D and 1D for some features I wanted at around the $2,500 to $3,000 range....

Is there ANY chance this will be the case?? ANY?

TVSTAFF

What doesn't make sense is drawing conclusions on an unannounced product for which tere are no specs available aprt from a bunch of wishlists and unsubstantiated rumours.

Why is it so hard to wait until there are some facts before ranting about Canon's inability to make sense?

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oklaphotog
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Re: So you want a 5D MkIII ?
In reply to tvstaff, Apr 26, 2013

tvstaff wrote:

Matt wrote:

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Hi Matt,

First I read this: http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/50713471

then I see this... http://www.digitalrev.com/article/canon-7d-hardcore-durability-test/MjA0MjMyMTE_A  DO NOT DO THESE THINGS TO YOUR CAMERA

And this http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://alexsukonkin.com/reviews/Canon-EF17-40f4-L-USM/7d-frozen.jpg&imgrefurl=http://alexsukonkin.com/reviews/Canon-EF17-40f4-L-USM_en.shtml&h=555&w=800&sz=289&tbnid=M63uHzEbmjR3nM:&tbnh=90&tbnw=130&zoom=1&usg=__RWiWKxd08KPyCOiNwAVOkoseGJw=&docid=sQUNCpkFF2IzaM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=HBJ6UeHqJun84AP3tYFA&sqi=2&ved=0CEsQ9QEwAw&dur=9026

And This https://www.google.com/search?q=canon+7d+in+snow&safe=off&hl=en&qscrl=1&rlz=1T4ADFA_enUS482US482&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=HBJ6UeHqJun84AP3tYFA&sqi=2&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1395&bih=657#imgrc=co0uHBqITc8K1M%3A%3BbMd4TNk9rrliDM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Flaamc.files.wordpress.com%252F2010%252F01%252Fmg_0075c.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Flaamc.wordpress.com%252F2010%252F02%252F12%252F7d-1-weather-sealing%252F%3B692%3B422

And this http://cdn.bascek.com/yuklemeler//2011/05/canon7d-DzurenHamzah.jpg

Seems the 7D is one tough customer! 

The 5D2/3 has the same seals as a 7D. All of those pictures you have linked to from google images, I have done with my 5D2. including shooting it in rivers and under a waterfall. I've fallen 30 yards down a hillside and bashed the prism into a rock only removing some paint. I've shot it all day in the rain covering events as well. The camera works just fine. I don't baby my camera, it's a tool and tools get abused.

I suspect that the person in the first link switched lenses, opened the card door or battery door while shooting in the rainy conditions. Once you do this to any of them, all best are off on weather sealing. But neither the 7D or 5D is in the same league as a 1D series camera.

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scorrpio
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Re: 5DmkIII
In reply to tvstaff, Apr 26, 2013

tvstaff wrote:

No it's not. A FF 7D is not a 5D.

The photo focus system
video focus system
controls
LCD size
frame
the DIGIC5+ is not the same as the Dual "Digic 4"
 the ISO ranges AND memory card use... not the same and more!

5D3 has a more advanced 61-point AF system.   Controls are about identical, LCD on 5D3 is bigger and has higher dot count, not sure what 'frame' means.

Well, ok, 5D3 is a single-CPU camera, and can handle only 6 fps.

7D is the flagship APS-C.   If you want speed of 7D in a full-frame, you have to be looking at the flagship FF, and that would be 1Dx.    And why the price a shock?   People who have that kind of demand on the body generally require some serious glass as well - and even a 'lowly' 300 f/2.8L II  costs more than a 1Dx body.

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Karl Gnter Wnsch
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In reply to tvstaff, Apr 26, 2013

tvstaff wrote:

As a 7D owner... I would (want) think that Canon would make the 7d Mk II a must buy for those who enjoy the 7D.

Would it not have made sense for the 7d Mk II to have the following:

Full Frame - Water and Dust Tight - Auto Focus w/Video - More Cross Sections for Focus - Wifi

No (as in complete and utterly no) - yes - no (couldn't care less, wouldn't pay a dime more for one with that feature) - no (too much hassle to switch and would slow down) - no (illegal in some countries)...

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Karl Günter Wünsch

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Wyville
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Re: 5DmkIII
In reply to scorrpio, Apr 26, 2013

scorrpio wrote:

Well, ok, 5D3 is a single-CPU camera, and can handle only 6 fps.

That's not due to the CPU, which is 17 times faster than DIGIC4, but more likely due to the physical size and weight of the mirror.

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Robert J. Atwell
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Re: 7d Mk II - This does not make sense!
In reply to tvstaff, Apr 26, 2013

I own a 7D and a 5D MKIII.  The 5D MKIII is about as close as you can get to the 7D in a full frame camera and it does have weather seals that seem to be about as good as those on the 7D.  My main reason for buying the 7D was photographing high school baseball from outside the field.  The APS-C crop gave me the reach I needed and in reasonable light the 7D performs very well.  However, night games often left me at a loss when I was shooting at 300mm and f5.6   Thus the 5D MarkIII.  The 5D MarkIII solves the ISO issue but I find myself longing for the reach of the 7D and its APS-C crop factor.  I true believe that Canon understands this and I expect that the 7D MarkII will most probably address this issue.  I expect Canon to make the 7D MarkII meet the ISO capabilities of the 5D MarkIII first and foremost.  I know that's going to come at a price.  I think the next 7D will be an APS-C version of the 1DX.  To me it seems a "Baby 1DX" is what many sports and advanced amateur photogs are looking for.   Imagine being able to take 7-10FPS of your kids games at night from the bleachers.  Full Frame is not necessary(nice to have) reach is essential.  Good glass is very expensive relative to a camera body.  Canon's 7D is a great camera for most every family event.  It could be better if it had the ISO capabilities of the 5D MKIII.  That shouldn't be an impossible task given the advances in sensor technology.  I would buy a 7D with 5D MKIII ISO capabilities and I bet you would too???!!!

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elfroggio
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Re: 5DmkIII
In reply to Wyville, Apr 26, 2013

Wyville wrote:

scorrpio wrote:

Well, ok, 5D3 is a single-CPU camera, and can handle only 6 fps.

That's not due to the CPU, which is 17 times faster than DIGIC4, but more likely due to the physical size and weight of the mirror.

To get the 12 frames per second (raw) on the 1Dx, Canon needed 2 Digic 5+ and 1 Digic 4 (just for the autofocus itself).

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birdbrain
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Re: 7d Mk II - This does not make sense!
In reply to tvstaff, Apr 26, 2013

tvstaff wrote:

As a 7D owner... I would (want) think that Canon would make the 7d Mk II a must buy for those who enjoy the 7D.

Would it not have made sense for the 7d Mk II to have the following:

Full Frame - Water and Dust Tight - Auto Focus w/Video - More Cross Sections for Focus - Wifi

With just the above I think two things could happen. 7D owners would buy one as a step up for those of us that want Full Frame AND 5D Mk III owners that wanted a Water and Dust Tight backup.

I really don't understand why Canon would make the new 7d Mk II anything BUT Full Frame.

Since I love my 7D and the abuse it can take, I was really hoping the new 7D MkII would fall between the 5D and 1D for some features I wanted at around the $2,500 to $3,000 range....

Is there ANY chance this will be the case?? ANY?

TVSTAFF

I have to say it is your post that does not make sense.

The 7D is a crop frame camera, Canon make perfectly good FF camera's the 1Dx, 5D3 and 6D

The 5D3 is as water and dust tight as the 7D is. (Many people have pointed this out but you seem to ignore this detail?)

The 7D2 will remain a crop frame sensor, it gives you that extra reach which is what the 7D is all about.

If you want a FF camera then buy the 5D3 you will not be disappointed, don't expect Canon to shoot themselves in the foot and suddenly change track with the positioning of the 7D2.

If you want a higher frame rate than the 5D3 can offer then it's the 1Dx.

The 7D at the time of its release was designed to be the best crop frame sensor DSLR around. I can't see Canon not expecting their 7D2 to be anything less.

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tvstaff
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Re: 5DmkIII
In reply to scorrpio, Apr 26, 2013

scorrpio wrote:

tvstaff wrote:

No it's not. A FF 7D is not a 5D.

The photo focus system
video focus system
controls
LCD size
frame
the DIGIC5+ is not the same as the Dual "Digic 4"
 the ISO ranges AND memory card use... not the same and more!

5D3 has a more advanced 61-point AF system.   Controls are about identical, LCD on 5D3 is bigger and has higher dot count, not sure what 'frame' means.

Well, ok, 5D3 is a single-CPU camera, and can handle only 6 fps.

7D is the flagship APS-C.   If you want speed of 7D in a full-frame, you have to be looking at the flagship FF, and that would be 1Dx.    And why the price a shock?   People who have that kind of demand on the body generally require some serious glass as well - and even a 'lowly' 300 f/2.8L II  costs more than a 1Dx body.

Scorrpio,

You make a good point on the price,

I just have not read the same on all the positives on weather sealing that I have on the 7D.  You even see pictures of the 7D in snow and people freeze it in water and it still works! <ROFL>

If the 5d3 is as sound I'd be happy but one of the posters said they had trouble.

If you go to the Canon site and compare the 7D side by side with the 5D, Canon states:  The EOS 7D features a magnesium alloy body that is dust and weather resistant.

I cannot find the same SPECS on Canon's chart for the 5Dmk3.

I think Canon even knows that the 7D is indeed sealed very well and the ONLY camera that Canon claims is really sealed are their iD line of products.

You make a graet point that the 5D costs as much as one of my lenses so it's a great value.

Best regards to you.

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tko
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In reply to tvstaff, Apr 26, 2013

You want a high end video camera, a high end sports camera, and a high end FF camera rolled up in one, w/only a slight price mark up.

tvstaff wrote:

As a 7D owner... I would (want) think that Canon would make the 7d Mk II a must buy for those who enjoy the 7D.

Would it not have made sense for the 7d Mk II to have the following:

Full Frame - Water and Dust Tight - Auto Focus w/Video - More Cross Sections for Focus - Wifi

FF - that's what defines the 7d. It it was FF it would be the top of the line 1D pro series w/a $10,000 price tag.

It already has AF for video. Not the best, but that's the nature of the beast.

Wifi for a 10FPS camera? Wifi is for studio shots. Never use it for travel. Never use it for sports.

With just the above I think two things could happen. 7D owners would buy one as a step up for those of us that want Full Frame AND 5D Mk III owners that wanted a Water and Dust Tight backup.

I really don't understand why Canon would make the new 7d Mk II anything BUT Full Frame.

Well, I wouldn't buy it, because I have 5dIII. I like the crop of the 7d. A 20+ MP sensor in crop would be wonderful

Since I love my 7D and the abuse it can take, I was really hoping the new 7D MkII would fall between the 5D and 1D for some features I wanted at around the $2,500 to $3,000 range....

Why should it be better than the 5d series?

Is there ANY chance this will be the case?? ANY?

Zero.

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tvstaff
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Re: why?
In reply to tko, Apr 26, 2013

tko wrote:

You want a high end video camera, a high end sports camera, and a high end FF camera rolled up in one, w/only a slight price mark up.

tvstaff wrote:

Full Frame - Water and Dust Tight - Auto Focus w/Video - More Cross Sections for Focus - Wifi

FF - that's what defines the 7d. It it was FF it would be the top of the line 1D pro series w/a $10,000 price tag.

It already has AF for video. Not the best, but that's the nature of the beast.

Wifi for a 10FPS camera? Wifi is for studio shots. Never use it for travel. Never use it for sports.

With just the above I think two things could happen. 7D owners would buy one as a step up for those of us that want Full Frame AND 5D Mk III owners that wanted a Water and Dust Tight backup.

I really don't understand why Canon would make the new 7d Mk II anything BUT Full Frame.

Well, I wouldn't buy it, because I have 5dIII. I like the crop of the 7d. A 20+ MP sensor in crop would be wonderful

Since I love my 7D and the abuse it can take, I was really hoping the new 7D MkII would fall between the 5D and 1D for some features I wanted at around the $2,500 to $3,000 range....

Why should it be better than the 5d series?

Is there ANY chance this will be the case?? ANY?

Zero.

Hi Zero,

One of the reasons I like the 7D so much and want to see it in a FF is because of, one of the points you made and I think it's a good one.

I like using the 7D for portraits and still life and I think it does a great job w/good glass.  The issue is indeed ISO to a lesser extent but it's the focus system I wish was improved a bit.  I'm not not saying the current one is bad... It's just I'd love 64 vs 19

As for wi-fi, I'd like to be able to dump to my NAS and or a tablet as I shoot without being teathered.

I think the 7D now is a good solid platform!!  For me the extra focus, color depth for shots like these would be nice.   I know Canon will do what they want and they are a great company.  I'm just talking about my wish list.

All the best to you!

I think the 7D could be a great in studio as a FF

A little better color depth would be nice too.

All I'm sayings is I like the platform and wish I could tweak it to my wants.

As some here have said. "The 5Dmk III" is also weather tight"  But in going to Canon's site and just now calling Canon... They claim as of now, Only the 7D and 1D cameras are best and the 1D much much better than the 7D.

The 1D is not an option for me.... So I can "Wish".. I'm allowed to do that

I need another body....  perhaps I'll just have to wait a little longer... but I'm happy Canon owner and think they are a great company.

All the best TKO.

TVSTAFF

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Lee Jay
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In reply to tvstaff, Apr 26, 2013

tvstaff wrote:

I really don't understand why Canon would make the new 7d Mk II anything BUT Full Frame.

For the 7D to be a 7D it needs a few defining characteristics:

  • Fast frame rates (10fps would be nice)
  • High pixel density (higher than current would be nice)
  • Medium-sized body (not a 1D-sized body)
  • Moderate price (in the sub $2,000 range, not the $3,000-10,000 range)
  • Great AF performance (like the 5DIII, perhaps)

The 7DII absolutely, positively has to be a 20+MP crop-sensor camera, or it loses the above defining characteristics.

  • They can't make it have high pixel density and a fast frame rate if it's full-frame.  Too many pixels to process and save.
  • If they somehow could, it's price and size would be in the same class as the 1DX.

I'd love a 7DII and a 5DIIIn/IV (whatever) released at about the same time and with the same user interface.

I've used my 20D and 5D together since they were new and I love that I don't have to figure out a different user interface between the cameras.  I also love that they have different purposes (20D is fast with high pixel density, the 5D is good in low light with a bigger sensor), and I use each to its own advantage.

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Wyville
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Re: 5DmkIII
In reply to elfroggio, Apr 26, 2013

elfroggio wrote:

To get the 12 frames per second (raw) on the 1Dx, Canon needed 2 Digic 5+ and 1 Digic 4 (just for the autofocus itself).

That isn't just to get to 12 fps. The processing power is required for the metering, AF, tracking, all of which is much more advanced on the 1DX compared to a 7D/5DmkIII.

There are Sony DSLR's that can do 12fps, but which certainly do not have the processing power of the 1DX. So 12fps on one camera isn't always the same as 12fps on another. Certainly though, the physical size to move the parts in a full frame camera require extra engineering and cost compared to an APS-C camera. The 1DX for instance also has carbon fibre shutter blades to lower the weight, reduce vibration and add to the shutter life.

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Canon PowerShot S95 Canon EOS 7D Canon EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM Canon EF 100-400mm f/4.5-5.6L IS USM
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