Is mirrorless the worst of all worlds? and FF the best?

Started Apr 25, 2013 | Discussions
tecnoworld
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Re: Is mirrorless the worst of all worlds? and FF the best?
In reply to zenpmd, Apr 26, 2013

just a reply about expensiveness and primes. I own tne nx system by samsung. 2 years ago I paid 250€ for the nx100+20/50mm+flash. 6 months ago I paid 290€ for the nx20+20/50+flash. They have very good iq compared to other aps-c cameras.

now the nx300 is out which is way better, in every aspect, than nx200. It can be found for about 600-700€ and is a brand new product, with top iq and a lot of features (please read some reviews on the web). I think it is a very competitive price for auch a system.

I own several primes for this system which, according to reviews, have great sharpness and high quality. again, the paid price for them is very good for quality.

namely: 30mm f2 (paid 150€, now even cheaper), 85mm f1.4 (paid 420€, gorgeous bokeh), 60mm f2.8 (paid 390€, macro 1:1, very good sharpness and ois). Now the 45mm f1.8 is out and seems a great lens, for about 250€.

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Jorginho
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I have been reading on the NX forum and
In reply to tecnoworld, Apr 26, 2013

In theory there is a lot to like. IQ is indeed very good. But I inspite of so little users over there it seems there are a lot of problems with the QC of Samsung. Also, Samsung to my mind does not understand photgraphers all too well and the most things they add are still aimed at what is not aimed at photography, but connectivity for instance. Oke...when you first address the probelms on the photographic side..

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happypoppeye
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In reply to zenpmd, Apr 26, 2013

zenpmd wrote:

Some random thoughts from today....

I cannot help but feel all it has done is fuel GAS and people's desire for change. Photography is a subtle art and a long learning curve, but without concrete and identifiable progress which you would see if you were lifting weights or running. New technology can feed off that insecurity.

In the long term, mirrorless technology will be very radical, but at the moment its not worth buying into for the following reasons:

  1. Nothing can compete with low light with FF.
  2. Nothing can compete with the Bokeh of FF (now I admit these are more about sensor size than mirrorless technology, but my point is that mirrorless is so expensive it makes sense to compare to FF), and also to keep using FF until mirrorless FF is available.
  3. The viewfinders are not 100%
  4. With all the options you have to carry a bag still. They are not the Sony RX100 or RX1. I am a Fuji x100s user and this is just about acceptable
  5. The best thing in its favour is that the zooms, in particular, are small, but there is only one constant apeture option, and its excessively expensive and still only 2.8 so as limited shallow DoF for spontaneous portraiture when travelling for example. The new Tamron 24-70 on FF, on the other hand, is fabulously versatile.
  6. Sure, the primes are super light, but the total cost of the good primes for the OMD, for example are extortionate, and mad. And in fact, that model serves as good proof to my theory that its about GAS. If great photographers, loads in fact, can get away with just two lenses, a 35mm and an 85mm, then the total cost on something like a 6D is something like £2000. Thats great value. People are buying the OMD, a ridiculous suite of primes, including buying things like the 12mm prime. Whats the point?
  7. The AF sucks for the money the systems cost. 
  8. APS-C systems, except Pentax, lack good primes. On FF on Nikon and Canon, you can buy exceptional 85mm 1.8 for example and its not a big package. So APSC is not the answer either
  9. With the price of the 6d and d600 there is no reason not to go full frame now and just become a great photographer with the 35mm and the 85mm. This is my plan and this week I am going to order the 6d!!!

So it seems to me that it makes sense to continue working with bigger cameras for now. The people who complain about weight are those who are already doing stupid things like carrying two zooms, when they should be armed with just the 35mm and 85mm.

Interested to hear your thoughts to the contrary!

Full frame can be mirrorless and mirrorless can be full frame ...your comparing a sensor size with a type of camera body.

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Jorginho
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Re: Is mirrorless the worst of all worlds? and FF the best?
In reply to cosmonaut, Apr 26, 2013

Since I have went full frame I have been unable to use anything else and believe me I tried. Almost every compact out there. Every single one seemed to have one or more quirks I just couldn't live with an 99% of the time I grabbed a full frame.

To show just how personal it is/these things are:

A99/D600 and OMD with 100 mm (equiv) lenses

Given the OMD has thef1.8 and the other f2.8 there is not much difference in DOF. I am not saying you are right or wrong, it is meant to show how some can perceive the same differences so differenlty. to me, the size difference is enormous and THE reason  toat least have something like the OMD (I have the even smaller EPL5).

I do appreciate the IQ difference, but would leave the FF for special occassions. Like a good stormchase with a big likelyhood f a tornado. You want the best IQ there. r Aurora Borealis, which we also have every once in a while. Your heavy full frame won't move an inch on its tripod so size and weight are irrelevant there..

The a99 is so small and light, for a full frame, there is really no point in using anything else. Plus the image quality, dynamic range and color depth are hard to leave at home.

I see little difference with the D600 actually.

I have swore off compacts and am not investing in another one that will set in the safe and not be used. If I do get a smaller camera it will be the RX-1.

If one loves photography and does it seriously then IMO full frame is the only way to go. I had rather have a full frame camera and a couple of cheap primes as to a good APC-S camera and a bag full of nice lenses.

Disagree. Iq and all is important, but the first thing that counts is having a very good eye and knowing how to get what you see on that SD card. these are tools

My only regret is staying with a cropped sensor as long as I did. The only time I miss a cropped sensor is when I am shooting wildlife and need some extra focal length.

If anyone is thinking about it. Stop thinking and do it. You will never regret it and wonder why on Earth you didn't do it sooner. Even if you have to buy an older a850/900, D700 and some manual primes. The dynamic range, color depth and bokeh is way better.

Do you realise there are quite a few people that have exactly the opposite experience: "why did I not get a mFT (or other mirrorless cam) sooner! My FF is gathering dust for months now!"

Plus you can finally quit figuring out the equivalent focal length. Compacts are way over priced for what they are anyway. None of them are worth $1000.00+

add these words: to me.

The problem with these forums are two fold:

1) people are really enthusiastic of what they use, which is perfectly fine. A good thing to see.

2) people think that their experience isobjective and their view is some universal law. It is not. Simply keep your experiences and feelings to yourself. That would change many arguments over here and keep them from spinning out of control.

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tecnoworld
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Re: I have been reading on the NX forum and
In reply to Jorginho, Apr 26, 2013

I know what you mean and I mostly agree, if you consider cameras like nx210 and nx1000/1100. But nx300 seems like a big step in the right direction, with very fast hybrid af, focus peaking, ultra fast processing after burst shootingm smaller raw files, tiltable display, af tracking and much more.

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Jorginho
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Re: I have been reading on the NX forum and
In reply to tecnoworld, Apr 26, 2013

even though I am so much invested in the m43s that a switch will be increasingly ahrd to make, I have always a keen eye on samsung and the NEX especially. I simply like some aspects of those cams more than on m43s for instance.

NX300 is a wait and see. I am not sure the hybrid AF is such a succes. From what I have read it is not.

But my main gripe iwht the NX300 is that it seems a product that is not finished and most of all I truelly wonder how good the Quality control of Samsung is. Just a few users and already quite a few of them sending it back for faulty screens. Lock ups if I remember correctly etc.
I have also seen quite a few lenses thatdid not perform well if I remeber correctly, eventhough the lenses are admirable when excecuted well.

I have three m43 camera's and never needed a FW upgrade to get it function really well. Never had a lock up, neverhad any problems at all. If you look on the m43 forum complaints are very rare. The only exception is with those 14-42 and 45-175 powerzoom lenses. I never used them. Can't think fo anything else that really went wrong actually. oh yes: some have reported spontaneously cracking screens on the OMD...But if we look at how many posters use an OMD (hundreds) this is really occasional.

Still: all of this is just my subjective impression. I might very well be wrong when it comes to Samsungs IQ.

Main downfalls:

- no EVF for NXxxx and xxxx series. this is even worse thanmFT failing to builtand EVF in their RF styled cams
- The very large files
- The lock ups
- Many small errors that need(ed) a FW upgrade (blackouts when shooting series? Something like that).
- Also: 20-50 mm without OIS seems another strange decision.
If they iron these things out, i think Samsung has the best APS-c mirrorless cam out there. Currently, I think the NEX inspite of the worse lenses is the best.

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CFynn
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Re: Is mirrorless the worst of all worlds? and FF the best?
In reply to zenpmd, Apr 26, 2013

zenpmd wrote:

Interested to hear your thoughts to the contrary!

How many people regularly make large prints?

I have a full frame DSLR (D800E) - I bought it to use for critical work - when I know I'm going to need the resolution, tracking focus or something else it offers. The rest of time I'd really rather use a smaller, more unobtrusive camera.

Sure a full frame camera will give you shallower depth of field - but there are just as many times when greater depth of field, that an APS-C or m4/3 camera will give you, is useful.

To my mind the lenses for the Fuji X system are reasonably priced. Generally you have to buy the best Nikon or Canon professional lenses  to match their quality ~ and those don't come cheap. The D600 or 6d bodies may be somewhat "affordable"  but that is only part of the cost.

Anyway buy whatever camera you think suits you - there is no camera best for every purpose.

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Mike CH
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Do us a favour...
In reply to zenpmd, Apr 26, 2013

... stop obsessing about what is best.

There is no such thing.

At most, there is most appropriate to the situation. And even that is sometimes in doubt.

Regards, Mike

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Wait and see...

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rtf
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Re: Zenpmd. Well Done!
In reply to zenpmd, Apr 26, 2013

Hi Zenpmd. I wrote a rather long and detailed reply to your post. Unfortunately, when I tried to upload my reply, it must have timed out.

So here is the condensed version.

I cannot remember ever reading such an ill-informed post.

RTF

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cptrios
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Re: Zenpmd. Well Done!
In reply to rtf, Apr 26, 2013

Without actually wading into the FF vs whatever debate...why would I want narrow DoF for spontaneous portraits while traveling?

"And here's Jane in front of a blur that I promise is the Eiffel Tower. And this blur is Big Ben. I don't know what this blur is, but let's just say it's the Great Wall."

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markymark101
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Re: Is mirrorless the worst of all worlds? and FF the best?
In reply to zenpmd, Apr 26, 2013

I'm a long time DSLR user - including film, I've shot with the big ole heavy equipment for more than 30 years.  After switching to the OM-D.  I'll never own another one.

Btw, the 12mm is a nice little lens - don't knock it if you haven't tried it.

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Bob Tullis
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Re: Is mirrorless the worst of all worlds? and FF the best?
In reply to zenpmd, Apr 26, 2013

zenpmd wrote:

Some random thoughts from today....

I cannot help but feel all it has done is fuel GAS and people's desire for change. Photography is a subtle art and a long learning curve, but without concrete and identifiable progress which you would see if you were lifting weights or running. New technology can feed off that insecurity.

In the long term, mirrorless technology will be very radical, but at the moment its not worth buying into for the following reasons:

  1. Nothing can compete with low light with FF.
  2. Nothing can compete with the Bokeh of FF (now I admit these are more about sensor size than mirrorless technology, but my point is that mirrorless is so expensive it makes sense to compare to FF), and also to keep using FF until mirrorless FF is available.
  3. The viewfinders are not 100%
  4. With all the options you have to carry a bag still. They are not the Sony RX100 or RX1. I am a Fuji x100s user and this is just about acceptable
  5. The best thing in its favour is that the zooms, in particular, are small, but there is only one constant apeture option, and its excessively expensive and still only 2.8 so as limited shallow DoF for spontaneous portraiture when travelling for example. The new Tamron 24-70 on FF, on the other hand, is fabulously versatile.
  6. Sure, the primes are super light, but the total cost of the good primes for the OMD, for example are extortionate, and mad. And in fact, that model serves as good proof to my theory that its about GAS. If great photographers, loads in fact, can get away with just two lenses, a 35mm and an 85mm, then the total cost on something like a 6D is something like £2000. Thats great value. People are buying the OMD, a ridiculous suite of primes, including buying things like the 12mm prime. Whats the point?
  7. The AF sucks for the money the systems cost. 
  8. APS-C systems, except Pentax, lack good primes. On FF on Nikon and Canon, you can buy exceptional 85mm 1.8 for example and its not a big package. So APSC is not the answer either
  9. With the price of the 6d and d600 there is no reason not to go full frame now and just become a great photographer with the 35mm and the 85mm. This is my plan and this week I am going to order the 6d!!!

So it seems to me that it makes sense to continue working with bigger cameras for now. The people who complain about weight are those who are already doing stupid things like carrying two zooms, when they should be armed with just the 35mm and 85mm.

Interested to hear your thoughts to the contrary!

You only THINK you know the motives of others.   But whatever rationalizations work for attaining the kit you believe will make you the photographer you want to be are fine - I for one don't care what you or anyone else chooses, and I know it's not the kit in general that makes for compelling photography.   On the other hand, working with the best kit one can acquire will help one master the craft - for the better the kit the less excuses for poor results..

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Glen Barrington
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Both are the worst of all possible worlds. . .
In reply to zenpmd, Apr 26, 2013

if you expect to develop a "One size fits all" system.  In fact, with that sort mentality, everything justifiably sucks. . .

Fit the tool to the job. . .

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Now that you've judged the quality of my typing, take a look at my photos. . .
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zenpmd
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Re: Both are the worst of all possible worlds. . .
In reply to Glen Barrington, Apr 26, 2013

I am not comparing mirrorless to FF. I am comparing the current mirrorless cameras to FF, none of which happen to be FF. And the reason for the comparison is that the OMD system is so expensive, it makes the comparison to FF a practical, real world one.

I am therefore pointing out why they are not very good replacements. They would be, or great 2nd systems, if they were a tenth of the price. But to me you are paying FF amounts, yes your kit is lighter, but you still need a bag.

Also, I repeat: ignoring Bokeh, why do FF images themselves look beautifully buttery? That one of the kids with the cameras above is just incredible. Its so smooth. Is that the FF sensor?

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tko
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In reply to zenpmd, Apr 26, 2013

I'll defend FF. I'll defend mirrorless. Heck, I'll even defend cell phones.

There is no one, right solution. No miracle compromise. Everyone wants and needs different solutions. Just like there is no best car.

I've seen some great photos with all formats.

I have no problem with anyone loving their camera. Just don't tell others that they HAVE to love it as well. That is it the perfect solution for EVERYONE.

This whole mirrorless, FF, cellphone debate is way out of hand. Learn how to use the gear you love to the best of your ability, and don't worry about what the guy next to you is using.

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String
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In reply to zenpmd, Apr 26, 2013

The extent that some people on here go to justify their OWN purchases never ceases to amaze me. So seriously, do you just make this crap up or is your wife reading this and you need to justify it to her?

You like it, fine, buy it. It's your money, your choices. However I will say that after shooting film for years and then Nikon DSLR's (with the holy trinity) for years, shooting with the EM-5 and some small primes has been a breath of fresh air... for ME.

In my experiance, the only ones "trashing" the current m43 body/lens lineup are those who have never used one. From the people that I have talked to and shot with, the majority of EM-5 and XE-1 users are those who have been there/done that with the DSLR's. They have made inteligent decions based on their own shooting needs/requirements and are more than happy with their choices.

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String
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Re: Is mirrorless the worst of all worlds? and FF the best?
In reply to zenpmd, Apr 26, 2013

zenpmd wrote:

Some random thoughts from today....

I cannot help but feel all it has done is fuel GAS and people's desire for change. Photography is a subtle art and a long learning curve, but without concrete and identifiable progress which you would see if you were lifting weights or running. New technology can feed off that insecurity.

In the long term, mirrorless technology will be very radical, but at the moment its not worth buying into for the following reasons:

"snip, snip"

Interested to hear your thoughts to the contrary!

So, lets get this straight...

5 days ago you traded your Fuji for an OM-D. Now, 20hrs ago you believe mirrorless isnt worth buying into?

I would suggest that you buy whatever flavour you want this week then post next week on how its not up to snuff. There are people who use a camera to you know, take pictures. There are others who blame the gear for their poor photographs...

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zenpmd
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Re: Is mirrorless the worst of all worlds? and FF the best?
In reply to String, Apr 26, 2013

String - and now the OMD has gone away! Now I only have the x100s, which, in its simplicity and dubious other options on the market now, I am going to concentrate my shooting time on!

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plevyadophy
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Thanks Re: Each has strengths and weaknesses...
In reply to Joseph S Wisniewski, Apr 26, 2013

Joseph S Wisniewski wrote:

zenpmd wrote:

Some random thoughts from today....

I cannot help but feel all it has done is fuel GAS and people's desire for change.

I cannot help but feel that this is wrong.

Wait. It's not something I feel. The CIPA sales figures prove it's wrong. But that's not really important.

[spurious analogy about weights and running deleted, as only someone who has never done either could have been so wrong]

In the long term, mirrorless technology will be very radical, but at the moment its not worth buying into for the following reasons:

  1. Nothing can compete with low light with FF.

True. But nothing prohibits FF mirrorless. The first one, the Leica M 240, is a bit pricy, but still, it exists.

  1. Nothing can compete with the Bokeh of FF (now I admit these are more about sensor size than mirrorless technology, but my point is that mirrorless is so expensive it makes sense to compare to FF), and also to keep using FF until mirrorless FF is available.

Totally incorrect. The fact that mirrorless cameras can have purely symmetrical normal and wide primes, and less retrofocus normal and wide zooms than SLRs gives them a major bokeh advantage. Leica has been an industry leader in smooth bokeh for decades. Some of the small primes from the APS mirrorless makers are also pretty stellar. The DSLR design is an obstacle to good bokeh.

  1. The viewfinders are not 100%

100% wrong. All mirrorless viewfinders are 100%. Some FF DSLRs (like Canon 6D) are not 100%. Few APS DSLRs are 100%. The DSLR design is an obstacle to 100% viewfinders.

  1. With all the options you have to carry a bag still. They are not the Sony RX100 or RX1. I am a Fuji x100s user and this is just about acceptable

I've taken SLRs and mirrorless out without a bag, just pick one lens for an afternoon. Just because a camera has interchangeable lenses does not obligate you to change lenses on every mission.

  1. The best thing in its favour is that the zooms, in particular, are small, but there is only one constant apeture option, and its excessively expensive and still only 2.8 so as limited shallow DoF for spontaneous portraiture when travelling for example. The new Tamron 24-70 on FF, on the other hand, is fabulously versatile.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say, so I can't count it as correct or incorrect.

  1. Sure, the primes are super light, but the total cost of the good primes for the OMD, for example are extortionate, and mad.

As Olympus always has been. They have a history as a premium maker: check out Pen F prices, adjusted for inflation. All you're saying is that bargain makers like Canon aren't making mirrorless in mainstream quantities, either.

And price a FF mirrorless Leica M 240...

  1.  And in fact, that model serves as good proof to my theory that its about GAS.

An incorrect model cannot prove an incorrect theory.

  1. If great photographers, loads in fact, can get away with just two lenses, a 35mm and an 85mm, then the total cost on something like a 6D is something like £2000. Thats great value. People are buying the OMD, a ridiculous suite of primes, including buying things like the 12mm prime. Whats the point?

Superior optical designs. More accurate focusing. Less noise and vibration. The list goes on.

  1. The AF sucks for the money the systems cost.

The AF speed sucks (which is a pain for sports shooters, who will be the last converts from DSLRs) but the accuracy and AF zone coverage is superior.

  1. APS-C systems, except Pentax, lack good primes.

True, but that trend began in the 70s, with FF film.

  1.  On FF on Nikon and Canon, you can buy exceptional 85mm 1.8 for example and its not a big package. So APSC is not the answer either

You can buy an exceptional 50mm f1.4 for an APS, at about the same size and weight as an 85mm f1.8 on FF, and do pretty much the same thing.

So, APS is the answer, although I'm not sure what your question was...

  1. With the price of the 6d and d600 there is no reason not to go full frame now and just become a great photographer with the 35mm and the 85mm.

Non sequitur.  One can become a great photographer with APS, FF, or a 4x5 view camera. There's no cause and effect relationships in your chain of reasoning.

  1. This is my plan and this week I am going to order the 6d!!!

Have fun.

So it seems to me that it makes sense to continue working with bigger cameras for now. The people who complain about weight are those who are already doing stupid things like carrying two zooms, when they should be armed with just the 35mm and 85mm.

If you have a mission (possibly a paying one) that requires a range from 24-200mm, then carrying "just the 35mm and 85mm" is the epitome of stupid.

Interested to hear your thoughts to the contrary!

Sure. Pick something smaller and lighter, with a zoom or two, so you can carry it more places and do more shooting, which increases your chances of becoming "a great photographer", and when you get good, and figure out what the heck your field of photography is, acquire heavier duty gear in that field. You may find your one true love is macro, and suddenly a lower vibration camera with a smaller, denser sensor is what you really need.

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An absolutely superb response to the OP. Great!!!

A lot of these kind of silly posts have been popping up lately with the usual suspects from the two apposing sects doing battle. It seems to me though that we have two markets, and their advocates, feeling threatened hence the kind of advertising we see for these products and the noises coming from their users, and that's medium format (feeling threatened by high res 35mm) and 35mm DSLR (feeling threatened by by small sensor mirrorless ).

I think, just as many of us have many sets of clothing and wear what's appropriate for the occasion or what suits one's style, photographers should stop having these silly debates, take an objective look at the merits and demerits of various type of gear, and just use what's appropriate or takes their fancy. Me I am a five brand and fixed-lens digital and interchangeable lens mirrorless and non-live view DSLR shooter (and God willing, I will add live-view DSLR and a lottery win might see me add the Leica S to that list).

Thanks for restoring some sanity to the debate.

Warmest regards,

plevyadophy

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tko
tko
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Re: Zenpmd. Well Done!
In reply to cptrios, Apr 26, 2013

I'll support your use of whatever works best of you.

But we are not all the same. Example: you may want spontaneous travel portraits of your family in Europe. I may want to play National Geographic photographer on my trip deep into Bali.

To me, travel photography is when I really get to use my equipment, and try for some great photos. My camera is with me 100% of the time. I want jaw dropping images (to the best of my ability.)

Home is where I take those family snapshots and don't really care. The dSLR doesn't come out.

cptrios wrote:

Without actually wading into the FF vs whatever debate...why would I want narrow DoF for spontaneous portraits while traveling?

"And here's Jane in front of a blur that I promise is the Eiffel Tower. And this blur is Big Ben. I don't know what this blur is, but let's just say it's the Great Wall."

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