Pentax China Confirms FF DSLR and Pro APS-C body

Started Apr 25, 2013 | Discussions
Alex Sarbu
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Re: Because FF affects APS-C development too
In reply to Zvonimir Tosic, Apr 27, 2013

Zvonimir Tosic wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

breeze_of_wind wrote:

This is getting awfully tired.  Rumors from China now get us all excited.  As a small company I thought Pentax had the potential to be nimble and quick.  It now seems they are at best at being slow and obtuse. A sad day.

John

I'm curious, how do you define "nimble and quick" vs "slow and obtuse"? You're giving such verdicts based on what?

Alex

I  can try answering that.

Indeed, but as we'll see you're not addressing my question.

Because if Pentax did not plan the FF before Photokina 2012 (which is highly likely for during the Photokina they kept silent about it), it is also possible they had to redesign the future, or imminent APS-C line too, redefine pricing as well (pricing is affected by design choices and market segmentation).

Not related to how do you define "nimble and quick" vs "slow and obtuse"?.

And by the way, Pentax was working on FF before Photokina 2012 even though the lower prices of the new cameras changed things a little bit.

This means FF directly impacts the APS-C development as well. Pentax suddenly faced a *totally different competition and market segmentation* — Photokina was flooded by FF offers, yet Pentax didn't talk even about their next advanced APS-C.

Having to face market changes does not make a company "nimble and quick" instead of"slow and obtuse"; how they act is relevant. So far, I don't see any reasonable (not armchair expert's wishful thinking) estimations about how fast Pentax should and could act.

To put it bluntly, they were falling behind quite seriously even in their own APS-C niche because Nikon, Canon and Sony have redefined what Pentax shall deliver, at what price and at what new market segment, and not only in FF market segment, but in APS-C market segment too. That is why it appears they are "slow". When your future position is defined by others, then you really are behind the game.

If you ignore the time spent under Hoya (hostile takeover, cost cutting, downsizing, preparing for sale) and the disruption caused by the actual sale. I wouldn't.

But even so, what you're saying is that Pentax has a lot to do, in order to react to some "dramatic" change (all the new FF cameras aren't cheaper than the old A850, by the way). Having a lot to do and being "slow and obtuse" are different things; unless you define being "nimble and quick" as doing nothing

Again, what does it mean being "slow and obtuse"?

Alex

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Re: A little hint here, periods of quiet there, now another little hint
In reply to Alex Sarbu, Apr 27, 2013

Alex Sarbu wrote:

breeze_of_wind wrote:

This is getting awfully tired.  Rumors from China now get us all excited.  As a small company I thought Pentax had the potential to be nimble and quick.  It now seems they are at best at being slow and obtuse. A sad day.

John

I'm curious, how do you define "nimble and quick" vs "slow and obtuse"? You're giving such verdicts based on what?

Alex

Hi Alex

A reasonable question.  The company seems to recognize that they have to produce a product that will be seen as unique.  That is a good thing.  They also may recognize the importance of the K-mount tradition and that may put some limit on their next steps -- one can only hope.  That being said, one wonders how they see the world.  The slight glances "under the tent" offer little information.  While others roll out "new" product they seem to be taking a more measures response route.  They have good product in the various K-5s, they have a loyal if smallish base of committed users, and most importantly one assumes their debt levels are quite manageable.  In this world I would have expected a more aggressive, definitive statement about the future.  "Hod on we are coming."

John

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Zvonimir Tosic
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The infamous Star Trek project
In reply to Alex Sarbu, Apr 27, 2013

Alex Sarbu wrote:

If you ignore the time spent under Hoya (hostile takeover, cost cutting, downsizing, preparing for sale) and the disruption caused by the actual sale. I wouldn't.

But even so, what you're saying is that Pentax has a lot to do, in order to react to some "dramatic" change (all the new FF cameras aren't cheaper than the old A850, by the way). Having a lot to do and being "slow and obtuse" are different things; unless you define being "nimble and quick" as doing nothing

Again, what does it mean being "slow and obtuse"?

Alex

Do you remember when Steve Jobs once announced that because of certain shortcomings, heat issues  and of lack development of the PowerPC platform by Motorola, Apple had to switch overnight to Intel processors.

Crowd has gone crazy because they knew the Max OS X was designed, even optimised for the PowerPC platform. In addition, even product names had the word "Power" in it.

But Steve masterly orchestrated the show, and pointed to the aerial view of the Apple's campus, and one small building in it. In that building, one team was working on a project "Star Trek" for many years. Or, they were, in parallel with the OS X team, developing the Mac OS X for the Intel processors — just in case.

You see — "just in case". That means going way ahead and think fast, running ahead of others despite looking like everything seems to be okay and you are happy where you currently are. It is all about not allowing that competitors run over you, and leaving yourself more chances for  progress and survival.

Lack of such business wisdom, or insight, can be seen as obtusity. Which means, if Pentax started to think about the FF in late 2012 only, and didn't have anything half-ready, half-developed, in advanced prototype stage, something that was worked on as a hobby project in the engineering, whatever! — a some form of FF insurance for bad days, when they will inevitably face severe market fragmentation because of lack of their FF offer, fragmentation which will endanger their entire enterprise — well, then maybe the user above wasn't quite out of line.

PS. Re Hoya, sorry, end users are not interested in excuses. Apple would disappoint all their users if they started to find excuses for the lack of insight and said "Oops, you know, OS X is done. What about you .. wait for us for few more years .. we'll come up with something no one else has?"

Be honest — hat would YOU answer to Apple then? For Pentax, you have an excuse. Maybe you are taking such unfortunate Hoya details into account, because you explore Pentax fairs for some time. But in reality, there are no excuses — they should have had SOMETHING ready, just in case.

When the products are not coming even when others are flooding the market, when everything seems to be delayed .. people buy something else and don't bother with the brand. Like that, brand constantly falls behind. And when they catch up with competition in something, competition is ready to jump ahead again.

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moving_comfort
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It can be absolutely anything you desire, because...
In reply to oklaphotog, Apr 27, 2013

oklaphotog wrote:

http://photorumors.com/2013/04/24/pentax-working-on-a-new-professional-aps-c-based-camera/

Quote: "Mr. Tomoyoshi Shibata also confirmed that Pentax is working on a full frame DSLR camera that will be different than anything else available today." I wonder how it will be different?

It will be more imaginary  than other FF bodies.  

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Re: It can be absolutely anything you desire, because...
In reply to moving_comfort, Apr 27, 2013

It will be more imaginary  than other FF bodies.  

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Alex Sarbu
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Re: A little hint here, periods of quiet there, now another little hint
In reply to breeze_of_wind, Apr 27, 2013

breeze_of_wind wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

breeze_of_wind wrote:

This is getting awfully tired.  Rumors from China now get us all excited.  As a small company I thought Pentax had the potential to be nimble and quick.  It now seems they are at best at being slow and obtuse. A sad day.

John

I'm curious, how do you define "nimble and quick" vs "slow and obtuse"? You're giving such verdicts based on what?

Alex

Hi Alex

A reasonable question.  The company seems to recognize that they have to produce a product that will be seen as unique.  That is a good thing.  They also may recognize the importance of the K-mount tradition and that may put some limit on their next steps -- one can only hope.  That being said, one wonders how they see the world.  The slight glances "under the tent" offer little information.  While others roll out "new" product they seem to be taking a more measures response route.  They have good product in the various K-5s, they have a loyal if smallish base of committed users, and most importantly one assumes their debt levels are quite manageable.  In this world I would have expected a more aggressive, definitive statement about the future.  "Hod on we are coming."

John

The others have the advantage of continuous, uninterrupted operation. They weren't forcibly taken over, stripped then sold out. That doesn't make them "nimble and quick", and so far I don't see any reason to consider Pentax "slow and obtuse" - whatever that means. Such judgement can only be made after Pentax Ricoh had a chance to start rolling out their plans (products), which is happening as we speak.

Statements about the future were made several times, but what good if they're ignored?

Alex

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Alex Sarbu
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Re: The infamous Star Trek project
In reply to Zvonimir Tosic, Apr 27, 2013

Zvonimir Tosic wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

If you ignore the time spent under Hoya (hostile takeover, cost cutting, downsizing, preparing for sale) and the disruption caused by the actual sale. I wouldn't.

But even so, what you're saying is that Pentax has a lot to do, in order to react to some "dramatic" change (all the new FF cameras aren't cheaper than the old A850, by the way). Having a lot to do and being "slow and obtuse" are different things; unless you define being "nimble and quick" as doing nothing

Again, what does it mean being "slow and obtuse"?

Alex

Do you remember when Steve Jobs once announced that because of certain shortcomings, heat issues  and of lack development of the PowerPC platform by Motorola, Apple had to switch overnight to Intel processors.

Crowd has gone crazy because they knew the Max OS X was designed, even optimised for the PowerPC platform. In addition, even product names had the word "Power" in it.

But Steve masterly orchestrated the show, and pointed to the aerial view of the Apple's campus, and one small building in it. In that building, one team was working on a project "Star Trek" for many years. Or, they were, in parallel with the OS X team, developing the Mac OS X for the Intel processors — just in case.

You see — "just in case". That means going way ahead and think fast, running ahead of others despite looking like everything seems to be okay and you are happy where you currently are. It is all about not allowing that competitors run over you, and leaving yourself more chances for  progress and survival.

Nice story.

Lack of such business wisdom, or insight, can be seen as obtusity. Which means, if Pentax started to think about the FF in late 2012 only, and didn't have anything half-ready, half-developed, in advanced prototype stage, something that was worked on as a hobby project in the engineering, whatever! — a some form of FF insurance for bad days, when they will inevitably face severe market fragmentation because of lack of their FF offer, fragmentation which will endanger their entire enterprise — well, then maybe the user above wasn't quite out of line.

Now, that's a big assumption you're making. What makes you think it's even remotely true?

A company like Pentax would have several projects being developed "in the background", even though they're not scheduled to become/be incorporated in marketable products, for the time being.

PS. Re Hoya, sorry, end users are not interested in excuses. Apple would disappoint all their users if they started to find excuses for the lack of insight and said "Oops, you know, OS X is done. What about you .. wait for us for few more years .. we'll come up with something no one else has?"

That's not an excuse, that's a fact; and it's funny how you call facts "excuses", yet insist on following blind assumptions.

Be honest — hat would YOU answer to Apple then? For Pentax, you have an excuse. Maybe you are taking such unfortunate Hoya details into account, because you explore Pentax fairs for some time. But in reality, there are no excuses — they should have had SOMETHING ready, just in case.

Further following your own assumptions...

When the products are not coming even when others are flooding the market, when everything seems to be delayed .. people buy something else and don't bother with the brand. Like that, brand constantly falls behind. And when they catch up with competition in something, competition is ready to jump ahead again.

... and ignoring the facts which explained why such delays had to be expected, and why the disruptions aren't representative of what Pentax Ricoh can and will most likely do.

Let's see them first running full speed, then decide if they're falling behind or not.

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Alex

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Cosmo Not
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Re: A textbook example on how to make users indifferent
In reply to Zvonimir Tosic, Apr 27, 2013

Pentax has not issued anything seriously new in almost 3 years.  Photokina 2012 was the time to show as least something, some enthusiasm, even a seriously advanced APS-C if not a FF prototype, but instead, a K5 sans AA was showed.

I feel that then, during the Photokina 2012, Pentax actually started FF plans seriously, and all new APS-C plans in consequence too — when Nikon and Canon and Sony flooded the floors with their new FFs and everyone was buzzing the FF tune. The lack of commitment for the FF doesn't only reflect on how the future Pentax FF line will look, but how the APS-C line will look like too.

It is possible that all new FFs from other manufacturers caught Pentax off guard. Because they didn't plan the FF yet, they had to redesign the future or imminent APS-C line too because they suddenly faced a totally different competition and market segmentation.

Which is sad, really. Coming late, even to its own game (APS-C) makes users indifferent if there is nothing new to show. Now they must spend more time, and more energy to think about "what new things to include, dammit?" just to keep their market presence. Which is far, far away from leading the market in anything.

On the other hand, I hope I'm wrong.

Hmm I dont know enough about all this to call right or wrong. What I do know is that I bought the most expensive pentax on the market and I am blown away. I am used to seeing canon drag a$$ with high end releases, but if that slow pace will allow Pentax to generate cameras like the K5 I dont mind. I read the were recently sold? This can cause a studder in developement, perhapse we havent received the new gear yet.

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il_alexk
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Re: Barking mad
In reply to Alex Sarbu, Apr 27, 2013

Alex Sarbu wrote:

steephill wrote:

What sort of commercial signal would Pentax be sending if it adopted the very small niche Leica mount ahead of it's own K mount? Doesn't make any sense at all. What should matter is maximum compatibility with their existing customer base. Canon was big enough to get away with it (dumping FD for EOS), Nikon hasn't dared and changing mounts effectively killed Contax. Pentax won't do this.

Just a theory, just a theory... I hope I haven't offended anyone here, have I?

Canon did it in different times, and they had to (in order to introduce electronic contacts and AF). Nobody changes their mount with no good reason.

In this case, going for the old, manual focus, longer than other MILC mounts Leica M would do no good; it's worse than e.g. Sony E to adapt other brands' lenses, it's ancient, it's niche. Pentax would gain nothing, but would lose a lot by screwing up their customer base (which is K-mount).

I am curious if you could shed more light on the following two questions:

  1. How releasing both Leica and Pentax mounts at the same time screws up their customer base? I do understand that this may cause some anger with Pentax fanboys, but talking about normal customers, why do they care about having more than one option?
     
  2. If supporting both mounts does hurt feelings of some loyal Pentax clients, why do you think Ricoh Pentax Ricoh-Pentax still sells GXR cameras?

No manufacturer would go to such lengths just to facilitate usage of competitors' lenses; indeed, Pentax won't do this.

There is actually one manufacturer that is already doing this for years. Let's see f you can guess its name ;). Click here if you can't.

Another thing which IMHO doesn't make sense is to start a dedicated mirrorless system with a highly expensive, low volume FF camera. It's difficult enough with the K-mount, where they already have a dozen or so of FF-compatible lenses, and components can be more easily shared with the APS-C counterparts.

Agree, but I haven't seen a better theory explaining how the FF camera from Pentax will be unique. Other than shaping it into the yellow brick, of course.

But, as I said, this is just a speculation, only time will tell...

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Joseph Tainter
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Re: Full of .........
In reply to Zvonimir Tosic, Apr 27, 2013

Zvonimir Tosic wrote:

  • or the answer from the Pentax Ricoh official, the only person that can indeed give a correct answer? (who has all sales data of all kinds)

Zvonimir, anything such a person says is a marketing statement.

Joe

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Joseph Tainter
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Re: Pentax China Confirms FF DSLR and Pro APS-C body
In reply to JeffAHayes, Apr 27, 2013

JeffAHayes wrote:

My point is that Pentax has been REALLY SLOW in its upgrade cycle

I suspect (or perhaps merely hope) that Ricoh is aware that so many of Pentax's latest products have come out with glitches, that Pentax has been told to bring out new products without problems. Hence the slow product introductions.

It's too late for me to be a Pentax optimist (after 3 copies apiece of the K20D, the DA* 16-50, and the DA* 50-135, and a K5 that I suspect is faulty), but I will try to be a Ricoh optimist until the evidence suggests otherwise.

Joe

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Alex Sarbu
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Re: Barking mad
In reply to il_alexk, Apr 27, 2013

il_alexk wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

steephill wrote:

What sort of commercial signal would Pentax be sending if it adopted the very small niche Leica mount ahead of it's own K mount? Doesn't make any sense at all. What should matter is maximum compatibility with their existing customer base. Canon was big enough to get away with it (dumping FD for EOS), Nikon hasn't dared and changing mounts effectively killed Contax. Pentax won't do this.

Just a theory, just a theory... I hope I haven't offended anyone here, have I?

Having impractical ideas is different than being offensive

Canon did it in different times, and they had to (in order to introduce electronic contacts and AF). Nobody changes their mount with no good reason.

In this case, going for the old, manual focus, longer than other MILC mounts Leica M would do no good; it's worse than e.g. Sony E to adapt other brands' lenses, it's ancient, it's niche. Pentax would gain nothing, but would lose a lot by screwing up their customer base (which is K-mount).

I am curious if you could shed more light on the following two questions:

  1. How releasing both Leica and Pentax mounts at the same time screws up their customer base? I do understand that this may cause some anger with Pentax fanboys, but talking about normal customers, why do they care about having more than one option?
     
  2. If supporting both mounts does hurt feelings of some loyal Pentax clients, why do you think Ricoh Pentax Ricoh-Pentax still sells GXR cameras?

What do we have here... a strawman with a hint of ad hominem?

You weren't talking about "releasing both Leica and Pentax mounts at the same time". You were talking about adopting an old, manual focus, no electric contact, niche rangefinder mount, while the K-mount users would have to use K-mount adapters (which would somehow have full compatibility and be completely "free", I presume )

What you failed to understand is that supporting a niche mount like Leica M would only benefit to some of the Leica M users, and that nothing is free.

But go ahead, hide behind words like "fanboys" and snide remarks like "hurt feelings". It's better than accepting your idea might be impractical, right?

No manufacturer would go to such lengths just to facilitate usage of competitors' lenses; indeed, Pentax won't do this.

There is actually one manufacturer that is already doing this for years. Let's see f you can guess its name ;). Click here if you can't.

It's not the same; there is no Ricoh mount and lens line to compete with the Leica's.

Another thing which IMHO doesn't make sense is to start a dedicated mirrorless system with a highly expensive, low volume FF camera. It's difficult enough with the K-mount, where they already have a dozen or so of FF-compatible lenses, and components can be more easily shared with the APS-C counterparts.

Agree, but I haven't seen a better theory explaining how the FF camera from Pentax will be unique. Other than shaping it into the yellow brick, of course.

You're reading too much on that "unique" thing - when it's most likely about market positioning and feature set, rather than doing something unlike anything before (the camera market is quite conservative, after all).

In fact, making a M-mount FF is definitely not "unique", as Leica is doing it for years.

But, as I said, this is just a speculation, only time will tell...

There is no reason to play wait and see for every unlikely idea.

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Cheers,
Alex

Alex

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Cosmo Not
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Re: Barking mad
In reply to il_alexk, Apr 27, 2013

You of course could be right and the mount will change. Of course you could be wrong too. If our only guide to the future is a vague hint of differentiation I think its silly to think we know what is coming. During my relatively short camera experience, coupled with my longer consumer electronics experiences, I have learned one can never hope to guess new technology. Pentax could have one of any number of new features. I just bought into Pentax and I like their style so I hope they stay afloat. Time will tell.

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Zvonimir Tosic
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Proof is in the interviews
In reply to Alex Sarbu, Apr 27, 2013

Alex Sarbu wrote:

Nice story.

Lack of such business wisdom, or insight, can be seen as obtusity. Which means, if Pentax started to think about the FF in late 2012 only,

Now, that's a big assumption you're making. What makes you think it's even remotely true?

A company like Pentax would have several projects being developed "in the background", even though they're not scheduled to become/be incorporated in marketable products, for the time being.

During the CP+ 2013 interview, few months ago, the head of Pentax system camera development said that prior to Photokina 2012, he personally doubted Pentax will do a FF . But then, during the CP+, he said that works are in progress.

According to him, after the Photokina 2012, he believes, and other team members, that Pentax should make an FF.

That interview then better explains a total reluctance to talk anything FF during the Photokina 2012 interview. During the Photokina 2012 they talked nothing, totally avoided the question. But few months later and they talk something, in fact, confirm with more determined phrasing. It's not "we are exploring ..." but "yes, we are working on it ...". Is that a coincidence, or the Photokina FF flood was a wake up call?

The interview is available on the YouTube too.

So this is the closest to solid evidence. I truly would like company and its photography philosophy to succeed, but I was startled when I heard this.

That's not an excuse, that's a fact; and it's funny how you call facts "excuses", yet insist on following blind assumptions.

As said above, not blind assumptions. I was relying on words from Pentax execs from various interviews — although they don't reveal everything, they do reveal at least something.

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KL Matt
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Been here before, but this time seems different
In reply to oklaphotog, Apr 27, 2013

Just as a reminder...before the K5, k7, k10, *istDS, and certainly before the *istD was announced, the level of dissatisfaction and moaning was perhaps even more intense than it is right now. Each of those new cameras however blew us away and was released to, for the most part, rave reviews. None of them were true pro-level, flagship-worthy bodies. These were all upper-midlevel bodies representing a particularly good value for the features and performance offered.

What we're witnessing now, I'm fairly sure, is going to be a major expansion at the top end of the line. It really looks like a digital flagship is on its way. It may be APS-C, it may be FF, it may be something totally off the wall. But from the way Ricoh were talking about the Pentax brand after the merger, they seemed to understand that the whole DSLR system thing doesn't really work without a true high-end flagship body in the lineup together with affordable entry-level options.

It's not so much that a small manufacturer like Pentax will reap outrageous profits from the very limited production runs of their top-of-the line model, but rather the realization that the entire buyer psychology of investing in a system doesn't add up if there is nowhere to go from the buyer's entry point into the system (k5 for many). When I go out and buy a K5II right now, I've got in the back of my mind that if I ever desire a more powerful camera body, I will likely have to switch brands. That's a huge barrier to sales. So the absence of a K3 actually hurts both K5 sales and sales of interchangeable lenses, where the real money is at. The DA 560 is proof positive to me that Pentax finally gets this. At the price that lens lists at, they know no one is ever going to buy it. Since they didn't design and release this lens to earn a profit on it, however, it doesn't matter. That lens is there exclusively so that someone seriously looking at the Pentax system can't say, "WHAT? Not a single lens longer than 300mm? FORGET IT! I'm not buying into that system! They don't even have a full line of lenses!" That's why I truly believe a flagship capable of providing an object of desire for potential upgraders (whether those people can truly afford it or not is irrelevant) is on its way.

People new to the system are never, ever going to go out and drop 7 K on a Pentax lens when they go out and buy their first Pentax body. It just doesn't work that way. But many will first check to see if the lens lineup is complete before spending 2000 on a k5x and a DA* zoom. They figure, if I like the system, I may purchase more lenses later, so I want those lenses to be available now, before I even need them. Another way to look at it is, how in the world do you expect to sell a 7000-dollar lens if you don't have a pro-level body to put it on? Basically, an incomplete lineup is costing them sales, market share, and profit margins. I think Ricoh gets this. It's not just about beating the competition with your semi-pro body by a hair every year or two, it's about getting more people into the system and buying lenses. And people who intend to buy multiple lenses tend to look at the entire system before they make a decision.

Matt

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... interested in .... photographs? Heh? Know what a mean? Photographs? (He asked him knowingly). Nudge nudge, snap snap, grin grin, wink wink, say no more, say no more, know what a' mean? Know what a' mean?
http://www.pentaxphotogallery.com/home#section=ARTIST&subSection=183820&subSubSection=0&language=EN

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Alex Sarbu
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Re: Proof is in the interviews
In reply to Zvonimir Tosic, Apr 27, 2013

Zvonimir Tosic wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

Nice story.

Lack of such business wisdom, or insight, can be seen as obtusity. Which means, if Pentax started to think about the FF in late 2012 only,

Now, that's a big assumption you're making. What makes you think it's even remotely true?

A company like Pentax would have several projects being developed "in the background", even though they're not scheduled to become/be incorporated in marketable products, for the time being.

During the CP+ 2013 interview, few months ago, the head of Pentax system camera development said that prior to Photokina 2012, he personally doubted Pentax will do a FF . But then, during the CP+, he said that works are in progress.

According to him, after the Photokina 2012, he believes, and other team members, that Pentax should make an FF.

That interview then better explains a total reluctance to talk anything FF during the Photokina 2012 interview. During the Photokina 2012 they talked nothing, totally avoided the question. But few months later and they talk something, in fact, confirm with more determined phrasing. It's not "we are exploring ..." but "yes, we are working on it ...". Is that a coincidence, or the Photokina FF flood was a wake up call?

The interview is available on the YouTube too.

So this is the closest to solid evidence. I truly would like company and its photography philosophy to succeed, but I was startled when I heard this.

That's not an excuse, that's a fact; and it's funny how you call facts "excuses", yet insist on following blind assumptions.

As said above, not blind assumptions. I was relying on words from Pentax execs from various interviews — although they don't reveal everything, they do reveal at least something.

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Zvonimir Tosic
“A portrait is not made in the camera, but on either side of it.”
— Edward Steichen

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il_alexk
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Re: Barking mad
In reply to Alex Sarbu, Apr 28, 2013

Alex Sarbu wrote:

Canon did it in different times, and they had to (in order to introduce electronic contacts and AF). Nobody changes their mount with no good reason.

In this case, going for the old, manual focus, longer than other MILC mounts Leica M would do no good; it's worse than e.g. Sony E to adapt other brands' lenses, it's ancient, it's niche. Pentax would gain nothing, but would lose a lot by screwing up their customer base (which is K-mount).

I am curious if you could shed more light on the following two questions:

  1. How releasing both Leica and Pentax mounts at the same time screws up their customer base? I do understand that this may cause some anger with Pentax fanboys, but talking about normal customers, why do they care about having more than one option?
     
  2. If supporting both mounts does hurt feelings of some loyal Pentax clients, why do you think Ricoh Pentax Ricoh-Pentax still sells GXR cameras?

You weren't talking about "releasing both Leica and Pentax mounts at the same time".

Yes I was - "I assume them to come out with both Leica and K-mounts at the same time", see  http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51359469 :).

You were talking about adopting an old, manual focus, no electric contact, niche rangefinder mount, while the K-mount users would have to use K-mount adapters (which would somehow have full compatibility and be completely "free", I presume )

It looks like you see my assumption as a M-mount camera with additional K-mount adaptor. This is far from what I've suggested. Ricoh GXR is essentially a camera with interchangeable mounts (and sensors). I know, Ricoh has never bothered to make a mount other than M-mount, but technically it is possible.

Therefore, I suggested the new FF camera to be similar to GXR style - FF digital back which can be used with interchangeable M and K lens mounts. The K-mount could support AF, the M-mount will have the focus peaking.

What you failed to understand is that supporting a niche mount like Leica M would only benefit to some of the Leica M users, and that nothing is free.

Lost you... Who said anything about being free?

But go ahead, hide behind words like "fanboys" and snide remarks like "hurt feelings". It's better than accepting your idea might be impractical, right?

No manufacturer would go to such lengths just to facilitate usage of competitors' lenses; indeed, Pentax won't do this.

There is actually one manufacturer that is already doing this for years. Let's see f you can guess its name ;). Click here if you can't.

It's not the same; there is no Ricoh mount and lens line to compete with the Leica's.

Not true. The Ricoh glass (GR28, GR21, Unit 1, Unit2, etc.) directly competes with Leica/CZ/Voigtlander/etc.

In fact, making a M-mount FF is definitely not "unique", as Leica is doing it for years.

A FF digital back that accepts more than one lens mount is unique IMO. An affordable digital FF body which is fully compatible with M-glass is also something that will definitely grab its niche market. If the same body supports K-mount as well, it will be even more unique.

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Alex

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Alex Sarbu
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Re: Barking mad
In reply to il_alexk, Apr 28, 2013

il_alexk wrote:

Alex Sarbu wrote:

Canon did it in different times, and they had to (in order to introduce electronic contacts and AF). Nobody changes their mount with no good reason.

In this case, going for the old, manual focus, longer than other MILC mounts Leica M would do no good; it's worse than e.g. Sony E to adapt other brands' lenses, it's ancient, it's niche. Pentax would gain nothing, but would lose a lot by screwing up their customer base (which is K-mount).

I am curious if you could shed more light on the following two questions:

  1. How releasing both Leica and Pentax mounts at the same time screws up their customer base? I do understand that this may cause some anger with Pentax fanboys, but talking about normal customers, why do they care about having more than one option?
     
  2. If supporting both mounts does hurt feelings of some loyal Pentax clients, why do you think Ricoh Pentax Ricoh-Pentax still sells GXR cameras?

You weren't talking about "releasing both Leica and Pentax mounts at the same time".

Yes I was - "I assume them to come out with both Leica and K-mounts at the same time", see  http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51359469 :).

With both Leica and K-mounts adapters. It's not the same as having dedicated cameras.

You were talking about adopting an old, manual focus, no electric contact, niche rangefinder mount, while the K-mount users would have to use K-mount adapters (which would somehow have full compatibility and be completely "free", I presume )

It looks like you see my assumption as a M-mount camera with additional K-mount adaptor. This is far from what I've suggested. Ricoh GXR is essentially a camera with interchangeable mounts (and sensors). I know, Ricoh has never bothered to make a mount other than M-mount, but technically it is possible.

No, I see it as:

- complicating the camera design in order to accommodate adapters/mount modules, with no other reason than to serve the niche Leica M market

- forcing K-mount users to buy a K-mount adapter/mount module in order to use their lenses (when most of them couldn't care less about M mount lenses)

- having to solve problems like designing a modular system which would accept both a rangefinder and a SLR mount. One such problem is the viewing system, would the K-mount adapter come with a full reflex viewing system?

Therefore, I suggested the new FF camera to be similar to GXR style - FF digital back which can be used with interchangeable M and K lens mounts. The K-mount could support AF, the M-mount will have the focus peaking.

What you failed to understand is that supporting a niche mount like Leica M would only benefit to some of the Leica M users, and that nothing is free.

Lost you... Who said anything about being free?

Then, you admit Pentax users would have to pay more for a "K-mount" camera, with no benefit whatsoever over a native K-mount design?

But go ahead, hide behind words like "fanboys" and snide remarks like "hurt feelings". It's better than accepting your idea might be impractical, right?

No manufacturer would go to such lengths just to facilitate usage of competitors' lenses; indeed, Pentax won't do this.

There is actually one manufacturer that is already doing this for years. Let's see f you can guess its name ;). Click here if you can't.

It's not the same; there is no Ricoh mount and lens line to compete with the Leica's.

Not true. The Ricoh glass (GR28, GR21, Unit 1, Unit2, etc.) directly competes with Leica/CZ/Voigtlander/etc.

Don't you understand what "mount" and "lens line" means?

In fact, making a M-mount FF is definitely not "unique", as Leica is doing it for years.

A FF digital back that accepts more than one lens mount is unique IMO. An affordable digital FF body which is fully compatible with M-glass is also something that will definitely grab its niche market. If the same body supports K-mount as well, it will be even more unique.

- how do you know "it will definitely grab its niche market"?

- what makes that niche market worth pursuing, at the expense of the more mainstream K-mount?

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Cheers,
Alex

Alex

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Kerusker
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handmade - designed by Swarovsky
In reply to oklaphotog, Apr 28, 2013

oklaphotog wrote:

Quote: "Mr. Tomoyoshi Shibata also confirmed that Pentax is working on a full frame DSLR camera that will be different than anything else available today."

there will be only a few handmade models designed by SWAROVSKY and each one with different jewelry:

http://www.swarovski.com/Web_JP/en/1185532/product/Glam_Mulitcolor_Card_Holder.html

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][.Kerusker
we don't see that we don't see (eye's blind spot)

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brecklundin
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Flash subsystem....are we overlooking the 'obvious'??
In reply to oklaphotog, Apr 28, 2013

A thought just sneaked in and it's perhaps what has Pentax China's wet knickers is not the camera, it might just be another APS-C but rather could be finally be seeing a modern flash system introduced? We all know this is one area where Pentax lags significantly.

I would love to see such a system introduced with whatever the new body might be. Also a highly rated flash system would likely motivate a large number of body upgrades out in the ether, especially among those who have seen no reason to upgrade their K20D. Plus as a great gesture they could issue firmware updates to the K5 era bodies forward to let those bodies make use of a new flash system. I see that as not unreasonable to hope.

A new and well regard flash subsystem also might remove a big reason a lot of new DSLR, or someone looking to change systems, go with other brands. Maybe? Might be good for 645 shooters as well. But most studio shooters are using more traditional studio lighting rather than external flash solutions. But out in the real world flashes are great tools but ya need a solid way to control it remotely.

I doubt anything Pentax issues would be Nikon level but if they can manage to reach Canon's level here that would be wonderful for sure. At least to me...it is the only thing I miss from shooting Canon. Their flashes are marvelous.

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