Do you guys use VR on or off mostly?

Started Apr 23, 2013 | Discussions
Ernie Misner
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Re: The worse thing about turning VR off......
In reply to nathantw, Apr 25, 2013

nathantw wrote:

RBFresno wrote:

However, for me, the worse thing about turning VR of, is that I tend to forget to turn it back on when I really need it. I've screwed up a fair number of pictures that way.

So I now basically leave it on all the time unless:

+1000!!!!

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Am I the only one who sometimes forgets to turn it OFF when on the tripod?

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KEVZPHOTOS
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I always (and I mean always) use a tripod...so VR is off. (nt)
In reply to alegator, Apr 25, 2013

KEV

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nathantw
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Re: The worse thing about turning VR off......
In reply to Ernie Misner, Apr 25, 2013

Ernie Misner wrote:

nathantw wrote:

RBFresno wrote:

However, for me, the worse thing about turning VR of, is that I tend to forget to turn it back on when I really need it. I've screwed up a fair number of pictures that way.

So I now basically leave it on all the time unless:

+1000!!!!

-- hide signature --

http://www.flickr.com/photos/nathantw/
Always have a camera with you and make sure you use it.

Am I the only one who sometimes forgets to turn it OFF when on the tripod?

I don't forget to turn it off on a tripod, but definitely forget to turn it back on when hand holding. I was at the aquarium and couldn't figure out why my photos were blurry since I "double-checked" that VR was on. Well, it wasn't for the entire day.

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Always have a camera with you and make sure you use it.

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Robin Casady
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Re: The worse thing about turning VR off......
In reply to nathantw, Apr 25, 2013

nathantw wrote:

Ernie Misner wrote:

nathantw wrote:

RBFresno wrote:

However, for me, the worse thing about turning VR of, is that I tend to forget to turn it back on when I really need it. I've screwed up a fair number of pictures that way.

So I now basically leave it on all the time unless:

+1000!!!!

-- hide signature --

http://www.flickr.com/photos/nathantw/
Always have a camera with you and make sure you use it.

Am I the only one who sometimes forgets to turn it OFF when on the tripod?

I don't forget to turn it off on a tripod, but definitely forget to turn it back on when hand holding. I was at the aquarium and couldn't figure out why my photos were blurry since I "double-checked" that VR was on. Well, it wasn't for the entire day.

You folks need to work on your Zen Mindfulness.

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Robin Casady
http://www.robincasady.com/Photo/index.html
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts."
— Bertrand Russell

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Photo Pete
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Re: Do you guys use VR on or off mostly?
In reply to Robin Casady, Apr 29, 2013

Midwest wrote:

Robin Casady wrote:

Midwest wrote:

Robin Casady wrote:

Read Thom's article on VR. There was no benefit to using VR at 1/3200 sec. and possibly some damage. At 1/500 and faster, VR cannot react fast enough to be of use, and if you catch it just right (or just wrong, actually), it will blur edges.

Suppose however that you're shooting at any significant tele or zoom focal length. While you are framing and composing your shot, with VR turned on, your camera's autofocus and metering are getting good solid info about your image up to and after you press the shutter release. With it off, the camera and AF are working with a jittery tele focal length the whole time and your view through the OVF is also jittering around.

It doesn't matter if the shutter speed is going to be fast enough that there won't be motion blur, wouldn't you rather have metering and autofocus that's working with a useable view instead of something shaking all round? I would.

I wouldn't want to risk image degredation unless I had proved to myself that VR was necessary for AF to function properly in the given circumstances. I usually shoot manual exposure, so that wouldn't be an issue.

That's your choice of course. I haven't ever felt I was risking image degradation while using stabilization on any hand-held shot. I only turn off my camera's stabilization when shooting from a tripod when the camera is going to be rock solid. Then, I think there is a chance of the stabilization causing a problem when there is no reason to use it.

Do the math. The sampling frequency of VR is 1000Hz, which means it can't cope with a shutter speed faster than 1/500.

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Robin Casady
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts."
— Bertrand Russell

Rather It can't cope with a vibration frequency higher than 500Hz. Why does that equate to a shutter speed of 1/500 sec? I doubt hand held vibrations exceed 500hz and so they would be correctly compensated for regardless of shutter speed?

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Robin Casady
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Re: Do you guys use VR on or off mostly?
In reply to Photo Pete, Apr 29, 2013

Photo Pete wrote:

Midwest wrote:

Robin Casady wrote:

Midwest wrote:

Robin Casady wrote:

Read Thom's article on VR. There was no benefit to using VR at 1/3200 sec. and possibly some damage. At 1/500 and faster, VR cannot react fast enough to be of use, and if you catch it just right (or just wrong, actually), it will blur edges.

Suppose however that you're shooting at any significant tele or zoom focal length. While you are framing and composing your shot, with VR turned on, your camera's autofocus and metering are getting good solid info about your image up to and after you press the shutter release. With it off, the camera and AF are working with a jittery tele focal length the whole time and your view through the OVF is also jittering around.

It doesn't matter if the shutter speed is going to be fast enough that there won't be motion blur, wouldn't you rather have metering and autofocus that's working with a useable view instead of something shaking all round? I would.

I wouldn't want to risk image degredation unless I had proved to myself that VR was necessary for AF to function properly in the given circumstances. I usually shoot manual exposure, so that wouldn't be an issue.

That's your choice of course. I haven't ever felt I was risking image degradation while using stabilization on any hand-held shot. I only turn off my camera's stabilization when shooting from a tripod when the camera is going to be rock solid. Then, I think there is a chance of the stabilization causing a problem when there is no reason to use it.

Do the math. The sampling frequency of VR is 1000Hz, which means it can't cope with a shutter speed faster than 1/500.

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Robin Casady
http://www.robincasady.com/Photo/index.html
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts."
— Bertrand Russell

Rather It can't cope with a vibration frequency higher than 500Hz. Why does that equate to a shutter speed of 1/500 sec? I doubt hand held vibrations exceed 500hz and so they would be correctly compensated for regardless of shutter speed?

From Thom: http://www.bythom.com/nikon-vr.htm

"While this sampling frequency is of the camera motion, it is not completely uncorrelated with shutter speed. For example, the shutter curtains only travel across the sensor at speeds above 1/250, exposing only a portion of the image at a time. Another aspect of the VR system is that it "recenters" the moving element(s) just prior to the shutter opening. Simply put, there's a lot that has to be right at very short shutter speeds in order for there not to be a small visual impact, especially with long lenses."

I take that to mean there isn't enough time after centering to properly adjust for movement with 1/500 or faster shutter speed.

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Robin Casady
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts."
— Bertrand Russell

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Photo Pete
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Re: Do you guys use VR on or off mostly?
In reply to Robin Casady, Apr 29, 2013

Photo Pete wrote:

Midwest wrote:

Robin Casady wrote:

Midwest wrote:

Robin Casady wrote:

Read Thom's article on VR. There was no benefit to using VR at 1/3200 sec. and possibly some damage. At 1/500 and faster, VR cannot react fast enough to be of use, and if you catch it just right (or just wrong, actually), it will blur edges.

Suppose however that you're shooting at any significant tele or zoom focal length. While you are framing and composing your shot, with VR turned on, your camera's autofocus and metering are getting good solid info about your image up to and after you press the shutter release. With it off, the camera and AF are working with a jittery tele focal length the whole time and your view through the OVF is also jittering around.

It doesn't matter if the shutter speed is going to be fast enough that there won't be motion blur, wouldn't you rather have metering and autofocus that's working with a useable view instead of something shaking all round? I would.

I wouldn't want to risk image degredation unless I had proved to myself that VR was necessary for AF to function properly in the given circumstances. I usually shoot manual exposure, so that wouldn't be an issue.

That's your choice of course. I haven't ever felt I was risking image degradation while using stabilization on any hand-held shot. I only turn off my camera's stabilization when shooting from a tripod when the camera is going to be rock solid. Then, I think there is a chance of the stabilization causing a problem when there is no reason to use it.

Do the math. The sampling frequency of VR is 1000Hz, which means it can't cope with a shutter speed faster than 1/500.

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Robin Casady
http://www.robincasady.com/Photo/index.html
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts."
— Bertrand Russell

Rather It can't cope with a vibration frequency higher than 500Hz. Why does that equate to a shutter speed of 1/500 sec? I doubt hand held vibrations exceed 500hz and so they would be correctly compensated for regardless of shutter speed?

From Thom: http://www.bythom.com/nikon-vr.htm

"While this sampling frequency is of the camera motion, it is not completely uncorrelated with shutter speed. For example, the shutter curtains only travel across the sensor at speeds above 1/250, exposing only a portion of the image at a time. Another aspect of the VR system is that it "recenters" the moving element(s) just prior to the shutter opening. Simply put, there's a lot that has to be right at very short shutter speeds in order for there not to be a small visual impact, especially with long lenses."

I take that to mean there isn't enough time after centering to properly adjust for movement with 1/500 or faster shutter speed.

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Robin Casady
http://www.robincasady.com/Photo/index.html
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts."
— Bertrand Russell

It still doesn't make sense to me. If it is due to insufficient time to recentre the element and then adjust for movement this would also impact on shots longer than 1/500 second and that is not what Thom is saying. That would not relate to the shutter speed but would relate to the shutter lag instead.

If the camera can centre the element and adjust for movement on a 1/500 second exposure there is no reason why it couldn't do so on a 1/1000 second exposure. .. doesn't the shutter curtain take the same time to traverse the sensor, but with a smaller gap between the first and second curtain?
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Photo Pete

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Robin Casady
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Re: Do you guys use VR on or off mostly?
In reply to Photo Pete, Apr 29, 2013

Photo Pete wrote:

Photo Pete wrote:

Midwest wrote:

Robin Casady wrote:

Midwest wrote:

Robin Casady wrote:

Read Thom's article on VR. There was no benefit to using VR at 1/3200 sec. and possibly some damage. At 1/500 and faster, VR cannot react fast enough to be of use, and if you catch it just right (or just wrong, actually), it will blur edges.

Suppose however that you're shooting at any significant tele or zoom focal length. While you are framing and composing your shot, with VR turned on, your camera's autofocus and metering are getting good solid info about your image up to and after you press the shutter release. With it off, the camera and AF are working with a jittery tele focal length the whole time and your view through the OVF is also jittering around.

It doesn't matter if the shutter speed is going to be fast enough that there won't be motion blur, wouldn't you rather have metering and autofocus that's working with a useable view instead of something shaking all round? I would.

I wouldn't want to risk image degredation unless I had proved to myself that VR was necessary for AF to function properly in the given circumstances. I usually shoot manual exposure, so that wouldn't be an issue.

That's your choice of course. I haven't ever felt I was risking image degradation while using stabilization on any hand-held shot. I only turn off my camera's stabilization when shooting from a tripod when the camera is going to be rock solid. Then, I think there is a chance of the stabilization causing a problem when there is no reason to use it.

Do the math. The sampling frequency of VR is 1000Hz, which means it can't cope with a shutter speed faster than 1/500.

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Robin Casady
http://www.robincasady.com/Photo/index.html
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts."
— Bertrand Russell

Rather It can't cope with a vibration frequency higher than 500Hz. Why does that equate to a shutter speed of 1/500 sec? I doubt hand held vibrations exceed 500hz and so they would be correctly compensated for regardless of shutter speed?

From Thom: http://www.bythom.com/nikon-vr.htm

"While this sampling frequency is of the camera motion, it is not completely uncorrelated with shutter speed. For example, the shutter curtains only travel across the sensor at speeds above 1/250, exposing only a portion of the image at a time. Another aspect of the VR system is that it "recenters" the moving element(s) just prior to the shutter opening. Simply put, there's a lot that has to be right at very short shutter speeds in order for there not to be a small visual impact, especially with long lenses."

I take that to mean there isn't enough time after centering to properly adjust for movement with 1/500 or faster shutter speed.

-- hide signature --

Robin Casady
http://www.robincasady.com/Photo/index.html
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts."
— Bertrand Russell

It still doesn't make sense to me. If it is due to insufficient time to recentre the element and then adjust for movement this would also impact on shots longer than 1/500 second and that is not what Thom is saying. That would not relate to the shutter speed but would relate to the shutter lag instead.

If the camera can centre the element and adjust for movement on a 1/500 second exposure there is no reason why it couldn't do so on a 1/1000 second exposure. .. doesn't the shutter curtain take the same time to traverse the sensor, but with a smaller gap between the first and second curtain?
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Photo Pete

Thom says it centers the elements before the shutter is opened. I assume it is the correction made after centering that is the problem.

You could contact Thom and ask him if he could clarify the ≥ 1/500 sec. problem. You could also ask if his article needs updating for recent VR developments. Please let us know if he responds.

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Robin Casady
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"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts."
— Bertrand Russell

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stany buyle
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Off, most of the time...
In reply to alegator, Apr 29, 2013

I shoot handheld most of the time, also macro and even with 105 VR+ 2x TC combo=210mm .

If I can get fast enough shutter speed at reasonable low iso, -like S= ½ x 1/lens focal-, I found out that I get most of the time sharper pictures than with VR on.

I use VR in situations where shutter speed becomes too slow compared to the FL. Indoors means VR on if I don't use flash.

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Stany Buyle
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Photo Pete
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Re: Do you guys use VR on or off mostly?
In reply to Robin Casady, Apr 29, 2013

Photo Pete wrote:

Photo Pete wrote:

Midwest wrote:

Robin Casady wrote:

Midwest wrote:

Robin Casady wrote:

Read Thom's article on VR. There was no benefit to using VR at 1/3200 sec. and possibly some damage. At 1/500 and faster, VR cannot react fast enough to be of use, and if you catch it just right (or just wrong, actually), it will blur edges.

Suppose however that you're shooting at any significant tele or zoom focal length. While you are framing and composing your shot, with VR turned on, your camera's autofocus and metering are getting good solid info about your image up to and after you press the shutter release. With it off, the camera and AF are working with a jittery tele focal length the whole time and your view through the OVF is also jittering around.

It doesn't matter if the shutter speed is going to be fast enough that there won't be motion blur, wouldn't you rather have metering and autofocus that's working with a useable view instead of something shaking all round? I would.

I wouldn't want to risk image degredation unless I had proved to myself that VR was necessary for AF to function properly in the given circumstances. I usually shoot manual exposure, so that wouldn't be an issue.

That's your choice of course. I haven't ever felt I was risking image degradation while using stabilization on any hand-held shot. I only turn off my camera's stabilization when shooting from a tripod when the camera is going to be rock solid. Then, I think there is a chance of the stabilization causing a problem when there is no reason to use it.

Do the math. The sampling frequency of VR is 1000Hz, which means it can't cope with a shutter speed faster than 1/500.

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Robin Casady
http://www.robincasady.com/Photo/index.html
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts."
— Bertrand Russell

Rather It can't cope with a vibration frequency higher than 500Hz. Why does that equate to a shutter speed of 1/500 sec? I doubt hand held vibrations exceed 500hz and so they would be correctly compensated for regardless of shutter speed?

From Thom: http://www.bythom.com/nikon-vr.htm

"While this sampling frequency is of the camera motion, it is not completely uncorrelated with shutter speed. For example, the shutter curtains only travel across the sensor at speeds above 1/250, exposing only a portion of the image at a time. Another aspect of the VR system is that it "recenters" the moving element(s) just prior to the shutter opening. Simply put, there's a lot that has to be right at very short shutter speeds in order for there not to be a small visual impact, especially with long lenses."

I take that to mean there isn't enough time after centering to properly adjust for movement with 1/500 or faster shutter speed.

-- hide signature --

Robin Casady
http://www.robincasady.com/Photo/index.html
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts."
— Bertrand Russell

It still doesn't make sense to me. If it is due to insufficient time to recentre the element and then adjust for movement this would also impact on shots longer than 1/500 second and that is not what Thom is saying. That would not relate to the shutter speed but would relate to the shutter lag instead.

If the camera can centre the element and adjust for movement on a 1/500 second exposure there is no reason why it couldn't do so on a 1/1000 second exposure. .. doesn't the shutter curtain take the same time to traverse the sensor, but with a smaller gap between the first and second curtain?
--
Have Fun
Photo Pete

Thom says it centers the elements before the shutter is opened. I assume it is the correction made after centering that is the problem.

You could contact Thom and ask him if he could clarify the ≥ 1/500 sec. problem. You could also ask if his article needs updating for recent VR developments. Please let us know if he responds.

-- hide signature --

Robin Casady
http://www.robincasady.com/Photo/index.html
"The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, and wiser people so full of doubts."
— Bertrand Russell

I'll give that a try. If I get any feedback I'll post it here.
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Photo Pete

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wasi2quick
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Re: Do you guys use VR on or off mostly?
In reply to alegator, Apr 29, 2013

I leave it on all the time except when I'm on a tripod.

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RBFresno
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Re: The worse thing about turning VR off......
In reply to Robin Casady, Apr 29, 2013

Robin Casady wrote:

nathantw wrote:

Ernie Misner wrote:

nathantw wrote:

RBFresno wrote:

However, for me, the worse thing about turning VR of, is that I tend to forget to turn it back on when I really need it. I've screwed up a fair number of pictures that way.

So I now basically leave it on all the time unless:

+1000!!!!

-- hide signature --

http://www.flickr.com/photos/nathantw/
Always have a camera with you and make sure you use it.

Am I the only one who sometimes forgets to turn it OFF when on the tripod?

I don't forget to turn it off on a tripod, but definitely forget to turn it back on when hand holding. I was at the aquarium and couldn't figure out why my photos were blurry since I "double-checked" that VR was on. Well, it wasn't for the entire day.

You folks need to work on your Zen Mindfulness.

I had intended to do that, but I keep forgetting  to do so ..... 

RB

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