Obama backs Internet sales tax bill

Started Apr 22, 2013 | Discussions
Rick Knepper
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Hypocrisy
In reply to jayrandomer, Apr 23, 2013

jayrandomer wrote:

James Cricket wrote:

Suave wrote:

This tax is demanded by the states, and the states, by a large margin are governed by the Republicans.   If you count governors and exclude states with no sales tax you endup with 2:1 ratio.

jcampy wrote:

Democrats have never seen a tax they didn't like.

Exactly. They trumpet tax cuts and freedoms but try to get you through the back door while catering to corporate interests and "defending" marriage.  'Merica

First off, this isn't a tax, it's simply an improved mechanism for collecting existing taxes.  If you're lucky enough to already live in New Hampshire you're still going to get most things tax free because there's no sales tax in New Hampshire.

And many states offset a low or non-existent income tax with sales tax, so being able to properly collect sales taxes is something they would like.   To collect taxes outside of their state, however, likely requires the intervention of the federal government (a legitimate use of the "interstate commerce clause").

Please post the relevant section regarding sales taxes.

Digression: One wonders how this will impact those states who host large mail order & Internet sales retailers when sales dry up.

I think it's silly to blame Obama or Republicans for this; it's a deficiency in the sales-tax structure that wasn't really important until large-scale shipping of products across state lines became common.

I think it is silly not to.

It's one of the very few "loopholes" that folks of all economic classes have and will cease to enjoy. (I'm calling it a loophole at the moment for lack of a better word. If I think of something better, I'll type it in before posting.) This legislation should be left alone. The Republicans support this action because it is a less visible way to increase tax revenue than considering the income tax for those states who do not have such a tax or raising the income tax rate for states that already have an income tax. Republicans, just like Democrats, can't help but spend money and need more. It's the hypocrisy of their party and philosophical platform.

Speaking of hypocrisy. I wonder how many folks who post pro taxation or pro brick and mortar screeds (incredulous on its face) in these types of threads have taken advantage of Internet and Mail order purchasing to save thousands of dollars in sales taxes on their own purchases.  I suspect that such folks posting in these threads do so despite their own actions to the contrary because they have some need to belittle folks, to vent frustrations in their private lives and topics like this seem like easy pickings. I am not pointing fingers at any specific poster by the way.

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Rick Knepper
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How is the subject line silly?
In reply to nordilux, Apr 23, 2013

nordilux wrote:

This has been in the working for a long, long time and is aimed to get the finances of states in order (something like 35 out of 50 states are in the reds). I know, it all sucks for us consumers but in all honesty, it isn't a fair playing field for brick and mortars that have to compete.

It was just a matter of time before this was going to happen.

It's the headline from the article linked in the OP from the very liberal Yahoo News published by the AP. What's silly is not reading the entire post or following the link before taking to criticizing,  criticizing the correct source, or not proving one's assertions with reasoned arguments.

If you think it sucks, you don't have to meekly accept it. Just write your Senators and tell them that if they vote yay for this, you'll be voting nay for them come next election.

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Rick Knepper
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Who has had bad experiences with Brick and Mortar retailers?
In reply to CameraCarl, Apr 23, 2013

CameraCarl wrote:

Too bad this is happening about two-three years too late to save some of the great brick and mortar camera stores that were driven out of business by showrooming.  In Michigan there used to be seven great camera/video stores and now only two are left and one is a mere shadow of itself. If people hadn't been so mercenary and willing to do anything to save the last few percent of the price of a camera, we might still be able to go into a store and browse before buying.

Remember the days of no returns? Ignorant sales people? Inadequate inventory. Used car sales tactics? Inconvenient hours? Yes, sales taxes.

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Rick Knepper
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Re: Obama backs Internet sales tax bill
In reply to Doc Mo, Apr 23, 2013

Doc Mo wrote:

True about "showrooming". I'm in Michigan, where are the nice camera stores? Can't seem to find any near me that count.

I've been waiting on the 5DIII. I was tempted when it was $3490 as the kit and waited too late. Now it's up to $3800 or so. If it comes back down to $3500 range within next week or so, I'm in. Of course, taxes might kick in as early as this week.

I really think brick and mortar shops in Michigan had other influences that affected their survival as much as B&H and Amazon.

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Rick Knepper
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Sorry, forgot a very important item for the list.
In reply to Rick Knepper, Apr 23, 2013

Rick Knepper wrote:

CameraCarl wrote:

Too bad this is happening about two-three years too late to save some of the great brick and mortar camera stores that were driven out of business by showrooming.  In Michigan there used to be seven great camera/video stores and now only two are left and one is a mere shadow of itself. If people hadn't been so mercenary and willing to do anything to save the last few percent of the price of a camera, we might still be able to go into a store and browse before buying.

Remember the days of no returns? Ignorant sales people? Inadequate inventory. Used car sales tactics? Inconvenient hours? Yes, sales taxes.

Remember high prices.

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Ken Phillips
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Better get used to it?
In reply to lightform, Apr 23, 2013

Why not get on your state government to cut spending? If you give the government - at any level - more money, they'll spend more money.

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chironNYC
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Spending our money makes them rich.
In reply to Ken Phillips, Apr 23, 2013

Ken Phillips wrote:

Why not get on your state government to cut spending? If you give the government - at any level - more money, they'll spend more money.

Yes. Every dollar a government official spends of our money increases his (or her) own influence and power and the money he can make when he leaves office and goes to work as an influence peddler. Tom Dasclhe became a millionaire in the first six months after he left office. We paid for that.

Spending our money makes them rich.

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jayrandomer
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Re: Hypocrisy
In reply to Rick Knepper, Apr 23, 2013

Rick Knepper wrote:

jayrandomer wrote:

James Cricket wrote:

Suave wrote:

This tax is demanded by the states, and the states, by a large margin are governed by the Republicans.   If you count governors and exclude states with no sales tax you endup with 2:1 ratio.

jcampy wrote:

Democrats have never seen a tax they didn't like.

Exactly. They trumpet tax cuts and freedoms but try to get you through the back door while catering to corporate interests and "defending" marriage.  'Merica

First off, this isn't a tax, it's simply an improved mechanism for collecting existing taxes.  If you're lucky enough to already live in New Hampshire you're still going to get most things tax free because there's no sales tax in New Hampshire.

And many states offset a low or non-existent income tax with sales tax, so being able to properly collect sales taxes is something they would like.   To collect taxes outside of their state, however, likely requires the intervention of the federal government (a legitimate use of the "interstate commerce clause").

Please post the relevant section regarding sales taxes.

Article One of the United States Consitution

Section 8: Powers of Congress

The Congress shall have power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow Money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

...

This bill specifically address commerce among states, in particular the collection of taxes when a product is sold from one state to a resident in a different state.  Commerce is clearly defined as the "activity of buying and selling." And, in order to be applicable to these provision the product must cross state lines.  This is a legislative action where Congress has power specifically enumerated in the Constitution.

Digression: One wonders how this will impact those states who host large mail order & Internet sales retailers when sales dry up.

I think it's silly to blame Obama or Republicans for this; it's a deficiency in the sales-tax structure that wasn't really important until large-scale shipping of products across state lines became common.

I think it is silly not to.

It's one of the very few "loopholes" that folks of all economic classes have and will cease to enjoy. (I'm calling it a loophole at the moment for lack of a better word. If I think of something better, I'll type it in before posting.) This legislation should be left alone. The Republicans support this action because it is a less visible way to increase tax revenue than considering the income tax for those states who do not have such a tax or raising the income tax rate for states that already have an income tax. Republicans, just like Democrats, can't help but spend money and need more. It's the hypocrisy of their party and philosophical platform.

I agree, it's a great not having to pay taxes.  Unfortunately, it's not technically a loophole as much as it's poor enforcement of existing laws.

Texas Sales Tax :

3. Do I owe tax on goods purchased via mail-order catalogs or Internet merchandise?

Yes. A seller who uses catalogs or the Internet to sell goods is treated the same as any other seller of taxable items. If you purchase merchandise through a catalog or the Internet from a seller located in Texas, you owe Texas sales tax on the purchase. If you purchase merchandise through a catalog or the Internet from a seller located outside of Texas and use the taxable item in Texas, then you owe Texas use tax on the purchase. An out-of-state mail-order company or an Internet company may hold a Texas Sales and Use tax permit and collect Texas tax. If the out-of-state seller does not have a Texas permit or does not collect Texas use tax, the use tax is due and payable by the purchaser.

I think it's better to have laws spelled out and enforced rather than just selectively prosecuted.  Why not support that your state legislate an exception for internet-based retailers or simply remove the sales tax altogether?

Speaking of hypocrisy. I wonder how many folks who post pro taxation or pro brick and mortar screeds (incredulous on its face) in these types of threads have taken advantage of Internet and Mail order purchasing to save thousands of dollars in sales taxes on their own purchases.  I suspect that such folks posting in these threads do so despite their own actions to the contrary because they have some need to belittle folks, to vent frustrations in their private lives and topics like this seem like easy pickings. I am not pointing fingers at any specific poster by the way.

Yes, it's great that we aren't forced to pay taxes on many internet purchases.  It would also be great if the government forgot to collect income taxes on people who's last name begins with "K"--at least as long as your last name begins with "K"--but everyone else might get a little upset.

If there's a legitimate reason for exempting a certain class of sales then codify that and convince everyone else, otherwise be thankful that you were able to exploit an enforcement oversight for so long.

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Don_D
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Re: Obama backs Internet sales tax bill
In reply to Rick Knepper, Apr 23, 2013

Rick Knepper wrote:

http://news.yahoo.com/white-house-obama-backs-internet-174629905.html

Buy your 5D3s quickly.

Good news for the brick and mortar stores where you can not only buy a camera but try it out.

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Princess Leia
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Re: Obama backs Internet sales tax bill
In reply to Rick Knepper, Apr 23, 2013

Rick Knepper wrote:

http://news.yahoo.com/white-house-obama-backs-internet-174629905.html

Buy your 5D3s quickly.

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Attention Democrats on this forum: Do you support this bill? If yes you are nothing but a vulture socialist like your fellow Democrats in Congress and the White House!

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Chuck O
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Re: Obama backs Internet sales tax bill
In reply to jcampy, Apr 23, 2013

"Democrats have never seen a tax they didn't like."

This is coming from the request of Governors. Many Republicans.

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Ahender
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Re: Obama backs Internet sales tax bill
In reply to Princess Leia, Apr 23, 2013

Princess Leia wrote:

Rick Knepper wrote:

http://news.yahoo.com/white-house-obama-backs-internet-174629905.html

Buy your 5D3s quickly.

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Rick Knepper, photographer, non-professional, shooting for pleasure, check my profile for gear list and philosophy.

Attention Democrats on this forum: Do you support this bill? If yes you are nothing but a vulture socialist like your fellow Democrats in Congress and the White House!

I support the bill and I buy a lot of stuff off the internet.

If you do not like the tax, do not buy anything.

By the way, I am not a democrat.  Are you a republican?

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Suave
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Re: Obama backs Internet sales tax bill
In reply to Bryan Cady, Apr 23, 2013

You are not being taxed by a different state, the retailer collects sales tax at your local rate and pays to the state you reside in.  But I agree - it is a money grab, it's not going to "firemen and teachers" as they claim, it's going into the same spending hole the rest of our taxes go.

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Collett
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Re: Hypocrisy
In reply to Rick Knepper, Apr 23, 2013

Rick Knepper wrote:

jayrandomer wrote:

James Cricket wrote:

Suave wrote:

This tax is demanded by the states, and the states, by a large margin are governed by the Republicans.   If you count governors and exclude states with no sales tax you endup with 2:1 ratio.

jcampy wrote:

Democrats have never seen a tax they didn't like.

Exactly. They trumpet tax cuts and freedoms but try to get you through the back door while catering to corporate interests and "defending" marriage.  'Merica

First off, this isn't a tax, it's simply an improved mechanism for collecting existing taxes.  If you're lucky enough to already live in New Hampshire you're still going to get most things tax free because there's no sales tax in New Hampshire.

And many states offset a low or non-existent income tax with sales tax, so being able to properly collect sales taxes is something they would like.   To collect taxes outside of their state, however, likely requires the intervention of the federal government (a legitimate use of the "interstate commerce clause").

Please post the relevant section regarding sales taxes.

Digression: One wonders how this will impact those states who host large mail order & Internet sales retailers when sales dry up.

I think it's silly to blame Obama or Republicans for this; it's a deficiency in the sales-tax structure that wasn't really important until large-scale shipping of products across state lines became common.

I think it is silly not to.

It's one of the very few "loopholes" that folks of all economic classes have and will cease to enjoy. (I'm calling it a loophole at the moment for lack of a better word. If I think of something better, I'll type it in before posting.) This legislation should be left alone. The Republicans support this action because it is a less visible way to increase tax revenue than considering the income tax for those states who do not have such a tax or raising the income tax rate for states that already have an income tax. Republicans, just like Democrats, can't help but spend money and need more. It's the hypocrisy of their party and philosophical platform.

Speaking of hypocrisy. I wonder how many folks who post pro taxation or pro brick and mortar screeds (incredulous on its face) in these types of threads have taken advantage of Internet and Mail order purchasing to save thousands of dollars in sales taxes on their own purchases.  I suspect that such folks posting in these threads do so despite their own actions to the contrary because they have some need to belittle folks, to vent frustrations in their private lives and topics like this seem like easy pickings. I am not pointing fingers at any specific poster by the way.

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Rick Knepper, photographer, non-professional, shooting for pleasure, check my profile for gear list and philosophy.

Well said Rick.  I have mixed feelings about this issue because I do and have certainty bought my share from Amazon and B&H and prefer to do my own research than rely on the camera store guys. In fact, I loaded up on some gear last fall expecting this to happen.

That said, I can see where certain states like CA are hurting for revenue and cannot get it elsewhere, and where it presents an unfair advantage to online stores over brick & mortar.

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Ed Rizk
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In reply to Rick Knepper, Apr 23, 2013

Obama is the worst president of all time.  Taxes should all be lower, and governments at all levels should spend less.

All that said, 8.25% is a big edge to give one retailer over another.  There are other advantages to buying on the net, but you can't say the 8.25% isn't a big hit to the brick and mortar stores.

This levels the playing field and is an appropriate use of federal power.

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nevada5
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In reply to Rick Knepper, Apr 23, 2013

If the word "tax" is involved, Barry backs it.

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CameraCarl
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Re: Obama backs Internet sales tax bill
In reply to Doc Mo, Apr 23, 2013

Doc Mo, in Michigan there used to be Adrays in Dearborn, Canton and the northern suburbs, Big Georges in Ann Arbor, another small shop (whose name I forgot) also in Ann Arbor, two camera stores along Telegraph and a small shop in Wyandotte.  Most used to carry pro level Canon gear, tripods by Gitzo, camera bags by everyone except Think Tank, etc.  All gone now due to slow sales, but every time I went into one to buy something, there were lots of people shopping, but noone buying.

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CameraCarl
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Re: Who has had bad experiences with Brick and Mortar retailers?
In reply to Rick Knepper, Apr 23, 2013

Sorry, Rick, not where I shopped.  Their advice was far better than I can get from Amazon or ebay.

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Bill Randall
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In reply to chironNYC, Apr 23, 2013

chironNYC wrote:

Two questions:

When will the government say thy have taken enough of our money?

To answer that I need to know how much you have left.

If there is a national internet sales tax, does that give the federal and state governments the right to audit internet communications?

Yes. But it does not have to be.

With the internet sales tax the government will have access to almost every thing posted on the internet. The fact is businesses do not pay taxes - their customers do. Brick businesses pass the tax on to their customers, but currently internet customers do not pay a tax. The internet stores have an unfair advantage.

Suggestion: Why not do away with all sales taxes, and increase personal income taxes? This would actually be a cost savings to businesses who will no longer be burdened by all the paper work and meetings tax decisions require. In addition, government expenses for collecting and monitoring business taxes could be reduced.

In regards to an increase to personal income taxes, I am talking about the higher income levels.

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chironNYC
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Maybe the states with high taxes should suffer the consequences
In reply to Bill Randall, Apr 24, 2013

Bill Randall wrote:


In regards to an increase to personal income taxes, I am talking about the higher income levels.

I'm actually pretty sick and tired of the soak-the-rich, "pay your fair share," class-warfare bull crap. Higher income groups already pay a hugely disproportionate share of the taxes.

Maybe the states with high sales taxes, like New York and California, should discover that their taxes make their stores much less competitive in a world where money is very mobile.

And maybe the federal government should cut back on spending other people's money in order to enhance the power and careers of congressmen and bureaucrats.

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