Why Win8 will succeed. Or fail.

Started Apr 10, 2013 | Discussions
migibson99
Regular MemberPosts: 211
Like?
Re: "Pie in the Sky Drive" out here...
In reply to Archer66, Apr 19, 2013

Archer66 wrote:

migibson99 wrote:
I don't know of any software, literally none,  that doesn't require you to have an internet connection to download updates, bug fixes, security patches, etc.

What software can't be updated with a CD ?

This is a silly and pointless debate.

I suppose if you are aware of an update being released, you could call the software maker and ask them to send you the update via disk, which they may or may not do, but the person that started this topic said that he didn't have access to reliable phone service either.  If the expectation is that a software maker should just send everyone a new disk whenever there is an update or security patch.......well that's just not going to happen, so why even talk about it.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
dradam
Senior MemberPosts: 2,597
Like?
Re: "Pie in the Sky Drive" out here...
In reply to migibson99, Apr 19, 2013

migibson99 wrote:

stuartp56 wrote:

dradam wrote:

stuartp56 wrote:

No, you don't get it.

Geographically, for much of the west there is no data signal. Where there is no data signal there is no Cloud access. I work in the mountains of the west. There's a reason the local people all carry CB radios -- emergencies require it because the cell signal is not reliable, let alone a data signal or a full 4G data signal. I travel in an RV with usually a week in a location so Comcast is NOT an option.

I have a Wi-Fi hot-spot on my smart phone and I use that for access in all kinds of obscure remote places, but there has to be a data signal. My phone spends a lot of time shut off in my pocket because the battery goes dead in an hour or so searching for a non-existent cell signal.

I can live with Win-8 once I get software loaded on the machine. It's an irritation, it's usable.

Shutting the lid puts mine in sleep mode which means it's still burning battery. It has to shut down. Pushing the switch is an option I'd forgotten.

Well,

1) Skydrive (for me at least) syncs to and over the web, but is still completely available without a connection.

2) Nobody is forcing you to use Skydrive with Windows 8.  Local storage volumes are still 100% accessible.

And, how are you accessing the web? There has to be either a hard-wired connection or a wireless connection to the web.

You can not plug a network cable into a pine tree, or your solar panel to get access to the web. And using Starbucks Wi-fi isn't an option -- no Starbucks for Miles.

There's no 4G / LTE signal because the terrain is steep mountains and canyons and the distance is too far.

Whatever. It's beautiful out in the mountains and deserts, but it's not for those who want to be connected 24-7. I'd rather be where I can photograph 24-7. I just don't want the software manufacturers make it more difficult.

What doesn't he get?  What you are complaining about?  Sounds like your issue is that you live in a very remote area with no internet access.  How is that the fault of Windows 8 or Skydrive or "software manufacturers"?

Virtually all modern software relies on an internet connection for one feature or another.  If nothing else, I don't know of any software, literally none,  that doesn't require you to have an internet connection to download updates, bug fixes, security patches, etc.  If that is making it more difficult for you........well your expectations are just not realistic.

As an aside, isn't high speed internet service available via satellite anywhere in the world, even remote mountainous areas?  Also, do you have landline phone service?  You know they still offer dial up internet access over regular phone lines.  If the answer to these questions is no, then I think that you just have to accept the fact that living like a pioneer, as beautiful and as simple as it may be, has it's limitations.  Watching the cloud computing revolution pass you by may be one of them.

Even more to the point, Skydrive syncs to the local drive and is available even when off line.  So, should stuartp choose to use Skydrive (which, by the way, is NOT at all required in Windows 8) he could still wait to sync it for whenever he happens to have a connection (which clearly happens once in a while, as he is on an online forum).

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
dradam
Senior MemberPosts: 2,597
Like?
Re: Everybody's sick of downloading stuff
In reply to CAcreeks, Apr 19, 2013

CAcreeks wrote:

migibson99 wrote:
Virtually all modern software relies on an internet connection for one feature or another.  If nothing else, I don't know of any software, literally none,  that doesn't require you to have an internet connection to download updates, bug fixes, security patches, etc.

This has gone too far.

My family has at least two computers per capita, and we are all heartily sick of downloading new Adobe Flash versions, Windows updates, silly Firefox upgrades, useless Java replacements, etc.

How much time do we have to waste because software providers can't get it (approximately) right the first time?

Apple is able to make Mac OS X work without multiple updates per week. Same is true of Linux.

Yeah, I totally love how iTunes has an entirely separate program that is always running in the background to check for updates, which come about every week and are all somehow hundreds of megabytes.

Oh, and OSX has weekly updates.  Don't know what you're smokin on that one.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Abrak
Senior MemberPosts: 1,331
Like?
Re: Everybody's sick of downloading stuff
In reply to dradam, Apr 20, 2013

Well I have had Windows 8 for about a week.

But first PC sales. I generally up grade my PS about every 2 1/2 years and my current PC is 2 1/2 years old. It used to be almost a necessity - my PC would become infested by viruses and generally slowed down to a crawl after the addition of programs etc over a 2 year period.

I am not up dating this time around.

1) My 2 1/2 year old PC still boots up in 30 seconds, it doesnt crash, it doesnt have viruses and it copes with all I thow at it in a breeze - I run a lot of heavy lifting photo apps and it is running the latest greatest PC game - Bioshock infrinite - with no problems.

2) When I look at the latest specs of PCs I have nothing to really gain. My 2 1/2 year old laptop has a 256gb primary hard disk, secondary HDD 1 (TB) (replaced the DVD. It has native HD resolution and runs my external monitor at 2560 x 1440. It has a core i7, 8GB ram and a decent video card and it weighs less than a pound more than a Mac Air.

So when it comes to poor PC sales, much of the blame should really be placed at the success of the current product - Windows 7 is an excellent OS and current hardware specs have more than ample power. I will certainly wait until the new low power processors arrive and probably until my whole system can go SSD.

As for Windows 8, Metro and the App store seem an epic fail - there isnt a single app I have found that I want on my computer.

But besides that it seems excellent. Installation was quick and simple. Metro is quickly relegated to the background (Start 8), I think I actually like the new search 'settings, apps and files function' (added to my desktop via a short cut). It is faster and it seems very stable. Seems to me that people are making too big a deal out of Metro and the App store - it certainly put me off upgrading earlier but it is really only a minor inconvenience in the greater picture of the OS.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Archer66
Senior MemberPosts: 2,294
Like?
Re: "Pie in the Sky Drive" out here...
In reply to migibson99, Apr 20, 2013

migibson99 wrote:

Archer66 wrote:

migibson99 wrote:
I don't know of any software, literally none,  that doesn't require you to have an internet connection to download updates, bug fixes, security patches, etc.

What software can't be updated with a CD ?

This is a silly and pointless debate.

Sure, you made a claim that is not true.

For example you can order SP 1 for Windows 7 from Microsoft for free.

https://om2.one.microsoft.com/opa/Product.aspx?StoreID=d8f7bc03-a729-4829-88fe-3060615fec1b&LocaleCode=en-us

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
migibson99
Regular MemberPosts: 211
Like?
Re: "Pie in the Sky Drive" out here...
In reply to Archer66, Apr 20, 2013

Archer66 wrote:

migibson99 wrote:

Archer66 wrote:

migibson99 wrote:
I don't know of any software, literally none,  that doesn't require you to have an internet connection to download updates, bug fixes, security patches, etc.

What software can't be updated with a CD ?

This is a silly and pointless debate.

Sure, you made a claim that is not true.

For example you can order SP 1 for Windows 7 from Microsoft for free.

https://om2.one.microsoft.com/opa/Product.aspx?StoreID=d8f7bc03-a729-4829-88fe-3060615fec1b&LocaleCode=en-us

No idea what the link is since it doesn't work (for me), but regardless, have fun getting all your software updates via disk.  And yes, it is a silly and pointless debate.  It's like arguing about whether you can get to China without taking a boat or a plane.  I would say no, but you would you argue that you could take a hot air balloon. Technically correct, but realistically improbable and impractical.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Archer66
Senior MemberPosts: 2,294
Like?
Re: "Pie in the Sky Drive" out here...
In reply to migibson99, Apr 20, 2013

migibson99 wrote:

Archer66 wrote:

migibson99 wrote:

Archer66 wrote:

migibson99 wrote:
I don't know of any software, literally none,  that doesn't require you to have an internet connection to download updates, bug fixes, security patches, etc.

What software can't be updated with a CD ?

This is a silly and pointless debate.

Sure, you made a claim that is not true.

For example you can order SP 1 for Windows 7 from Microsoft for free.

It's like arguing about whether you can get to China without taking a boat or a plane.  I would say no, but you would you argue that you could take a hot air balloon. Technically correct, but realistically improbable and impractical.

How about with a car ?

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
dradam
Senior MemberPosts: 2,597
Like?
Re: "Pie in the Sky Drive" out here...
In reply to Archer66, Apr 20, 2013

Archer66 wrote:

migibson99 wrote:

Archer66 wrote:

migibson99 wrote:

Archer66 wrote:

migibson99 wrote:
I don't know of any software, literally none,  that doesn't require you to have an internet connection to download updates, bug fixes, security patches, etc.

What software can't be updated with a CD ?

This is a silly and pointless debate.

Sure, you made a claim that is not true.

For example you can order SP 1 for Windows 7 from Microsoft for free.

It's like arguing about whether you can get to China without taking a boat or a plane.  I would say no, but you would you argue that you could take a hot air balloon. Technically correct, but realistically improbable and impractical.

How about with a car ?

Putting your car on a ferry still counts as taking a boat.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Archer66
Senior MemberPosts: 2,294
Like?
Re: "Pie in the Sky Drive" out here...
In reply to dradam, Apr 20, 2013

dradam wrote:

Archer66 wrote:

migibson99 wrote:

Archer66 wrote:

migibson99 wrote:

Archer66 wrote:

migibson99 wrote:
I don't know of any software, literally none,  that doesn't require you to have an internet connection to download updates, bug fixes, security patches, etc.

What software can't be updated with a CD ?

This is a silly and pointless debate.

Sure, you made a claim that is not true.

For example you can order SP 1 for Windows 7 from Microsoft for free.

It's like arguing about whether you can get to China without taking a boat or a plane.  I would say no, but you would you argue that you could take a hot air balloon. Technically correct, but realistically improbable and impractical.

How about with a car ?

Putting your car on a ferry still counts as taking a boat.

Why would I use a ferry when I could drive or take a train ?

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
dradam
Senior MemberPosts: 2,597
Like?
Re: "Pie in the Sky Drive" out here...
In reply to Archer66, Apr 20, 2013

Archer66 wrote:

dradam wrote:

Archer66 wrote:

migibson99 wrote:

Archer66 wrote:

migibson99 wrote:

Archer66 wrote:

migibson99 wrote:
I don't know of any software, literally none,  that doesn't require you to have an internet connection to download updates, bug fixes, security patches, etc.

What software can't be updated with a CD ?

This is a silly and pointless debate.

Sure, you made a claim that is not true.

For example you can order SP 1 for Windows 7 from Microsoft for free.

It's like arguing about whether you can get to China without taking a boat or a plane.  I would say no, but you would you argue that you could take a hot air balloon. Technically correct, but realistically improbable and impractical.

How about with a car ?

Putting your car on a ferry still counts as taking a boat.

Why would I use a ferry when I could drive or take a train ?

Because Finland is a dumb country and should be America, of course.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
greenmartini
Regular MemberPosts: 276
Like?
Re: Worst. PC. Sales. Ever.
In reply to CAcreeks, Apr 20, 2013

There are a lot of reason for why PC sales are down, lots of people say it's because of mobile devices, others say it becauses Windows 8 sucks but also keep in mind that computers in general last longer and don't need to be replaced as frequently then in the past, a 4-5 year old computer can do pretty much anything you need it to do, there is no need to upgrade unless something breaks or you want to play the latest games.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Franglais91
Regular MemberPosts: 166Gear list
Like?
Re: I like Windows 8. Finally..
In reply to dradam, Apr 24, 2013

When I'm at home for the weekend I connect the Surface to a 24-inch screen via the HDMI port, connect a keyboard via the USB port, a mouse via Bluetooth and my file shares via WiFi on my NAS.

I have effectively a desktop in this configuration. However lets be realistic - it doesn't have the power of a true desktop. Some lightweight Office work, web browsing, mail - that's it.

I have a 7-inch Galaxy Tab. I find that the user interface is too small to be comfortable with text-based applications like Office (Polaris). I think that 10 inches is the smallest screen size that you can use on something with a PC type user interface

 Franglais91's gear list:Franglais91's gear list
Sony RX100 Nikon D800 Nikon D7100 Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 10-24mm f/3-5-4.5G ED Nikon AF-S Micro-Nikkor 60mm f/2.8G ED +18 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Abrak
Senior MemberPosts: 1,331
Like?
Re: "Pie in the Sky Drive" out here...
In reply to dradam, Apr 27, 2013

I don't see how the shut-down option is any more or less tedious in the past.

Windows 7: Move mouse to lower left corner of the screen > CLICK the Start Menu > Move mouse to shutdown options > CLICK to shut down OR CLICK drop down menu > CLICK for Restart or Sleep (2 mouse motions, 2-3 clicks)

Windows 8: Move mouse to lower right corner of the screen > Move mouse to Settings charm > CLICK Settings charm > Move mouse to power icon > CLICK power icon > CLICK for Shutdown, Restart, or Sleep  (3 mouse motions, 3 clicks)

Is it really that much more difficult?

Actually it takes precisely 'one-click' to shut down windows 8. All you do is click either the 'shutdown' 'sleep' or 'restart' tiles that you have put on your Windows 8 start menu.

I will be the first to admit that I didnt initially give the 'metro start menu' a chance and installed start 8. Two weeks later start8 is gone as I have found it totally redundent.

The useful links in the start menu from Win 7 I have simply added to the windows metro start menu - control panel, command prompt, shut down, sleep, restart etc all in their own group (It is very simple - create a shortcut on your desktop, right click and pin to start menu. You can effectively add absolutely any link you like as a tile.

I am still slightly underwhelmed with the metro apps but I can see their potential. You can create say a tile for Liverpool FC if you are a supporter that includes latest news in the press, stats etc. I think reading say newspapers will be a lot better with apps.

So I have fully embraced windows 8 and now think it is simply fantastic as well as intuitive.

I would also point out that I have bought the Logitech 'touchpad' which gives you full access to all Windows 8 gestures. I still use a mouse for photoshop and gaming. If I want to use a mouse why not buy a touch mouse? I did - microsoft - but instead of doing both mouse and gestures well it did them both badly. I would definitely look into it rather than buying a desktop touch screen - it makes far more sense.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Michael Firstlight
Senior MemberPosts: 2,925Gear list
Like?
Re: "Pie in the Sky Drive" out here...
In reply to Abrak, Apr 27, 2013

For the desktop, Metro is awful.  I mean, seriously, how would it feel if Apple took the iPhone user interface and slapped it on a 24" non touch desktop screen?  That is essentially what MS did - and its a lot worse than the iOS user interface.

I have over 100 Windows application installed.  In Metro they appear as multiple oversize groupings of big childish-looking blocks.  The blocks themselves are too big, two dimensional, you can't place them where you want, you have to scroll across multiple screens to find and locate programs - I mean, how much worse could they have designed a user interface for the non-touch-desktop?  The fact is, they didn't.

What the arrogant strategists, user experience professionals (if you want to call them 'professional'), product, and upper management team did was take a small form-factor touch phone user interface and slap it on a desktop operating system under the self-delusion that their clout and weight would make everyone shift in a desperate attempt to shuttle users into an app-store centric model for all users.

Net-net: That was arrogance at its pinnacle and now they are paying a huge price for it.  Windows itself as an OS won't fail - the Windows 8 'Metro' user interface has already failed on a mass scale on the non-touch desktop and isn't acceptable on anything except maybe phones and tablets.  Worse, I am a developer and installed the very first developer preview edition within the first hour of its release on a i5 tablet and an i7 desktop and by the next day I wrote a long letter to MS telling them all of this and predicting exactly what has now come to pass.  This is an "I told you so" to anyone from MS that might be reading this - please send it on to your peers because obviously no one there paid any mind to early beta developer feedback.

That's the hard and cold truth.

Regards,
Mike

 Michael Firstlight's gear list:Michael Firstlight's gear list
Nikon D800 Nikon AF-S Nikkor 70-200mm f/2.8G ED VR Nikon AF-S Nikkor 24-70mm f/2.8G ED Nikon AF-S Micro-Nikkor 105mm f/2.8G IF-ED VR Sigma 10-20mm F3.5 EX DC HSM +12 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
migibson99
Regular MemberPosts: 211
Like?
Re: "Pie in the Sky Drive" out here...
In reply to Michael Firstlight, Apr 27, 2013

Michael Firstlight wrote:

For the desktop, Metro is awful.

Worse, I am a developer and installed the very first developer preview edition within the first hour of its release

This is the part of the "debate" that perplexes me.    I don't know you well enough to call you an expert, but  given that you are a developer, I would assume you have a reasonably good idea of what you are talking about.  You appear to be someone who can comment knowledgably about Windows 8, and you are critical, yet many proponents of Windows 8 dismiss all criticsm as coming from people who are lazy or not techically savy (among other things).   You seem to be neither.

I just don't see how people can be so dismissive of criticism.    At what point do you stop blaming the user, and look to the software itself?

For the record, I did dowload the preview version of Windows 8 into a VM, and I did try to work my way around it.  Didn't like it.  I'm no expert, so I can't really comment on the technical merits (or lack thereof) of Windows 8.  I'm just a regular user, and I didn't like it.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Ho72
Senior MemberPosts: 1,520
Like?
Re: "Pie in the Sky Drive" out here...
In reply to Michael Firstlight, Apr 27, 2013

Michael Firstlight wrote:

I have over 100 Windows application installed.  In Metro they appear as multiple oversize groupings of big childish-looking blocks.  The blocks themselves are too big, two dimensional, you can't place them where you want, you have to scroll across multiple screens to find and locate programs - I mean, how much worse could they have designed a user interface for the non-touch-desktop?  The fact is, they didn't.

The fact is, they did. You can move the realizable tiles anywhere you want, create groups for specific tasks and place, prioritize and name and them as you please. You can group metro apps with traditional ones if that's your pleasure, and so on.

Your statements may be hard and cold but the truth part is sorely lacking.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
dradam
Senior MemberPosts: 2,597
Like?
Re: "Pie in the Sky Drive" out here...
In reply to Abrak, Apr 27, 2013

Abrak wrote:

I don't see how the shut-down option is any more or less tedious in the past.

Windows 7: Move mouse to lower left corner of the screen > CLICK the Start Menu > Move mouse to shutdown options > CLICK to shut down OR CLICK drop down menu > CLICK for Restart or Sleep (2 mouse motions, 2-3 clicks)

Windows 8: Move mouse to lower right corner of the screen > Move mouse to Settings charm > CLICK Settings charm > Move mouse to power icon > CLICK power icon > CLICK for Shutdown, Restart, or Sleep  (3 mouse motions, 3 clicks)

Is it really that much more difficult?

Actually it takes precisely 'one-click' to shut down windows 8. All you do is click either the 'shutdown' 'sleep' or 'restart' tiles that you have put on your Windows 8 start menu.

I will be the first to admit that I didnt initially give the 'metro start menu' a chance and installed start 8. Two weeks later start8 is gone as I have found it totally redundent.

The useful links in the start menu from Win 7 I have simply added to the windows metro start menu - control panel, command prompt, shut down, sleep, restart etc all in their own group (It is very simple - create a shortcut on your desktop, right click and pin to start menu. You can effectively add absolutely any link you like as a tile.

I am still slightly underwhelmed with the metro apps but I can see their potential. You can create say a tile for Liverpool FC if you are a supporter that includes latest news in the press, stats etc. I think reading say newspapers will be a lot better with apps.

So I have fully embraced windows 8 and now think it is simply fantastic as well as intuitive.

I would also point out that I have bought the Logitech 'touchpad' which gives you full access to all Windows 8 gestures. I still use a mouse for photoshop and gaming. If I want to use a mouse why not buy a touch mouse? I did - microsoft - but instead of doing both mouse and gestures well it did them both badly. I would definitely look into it rather than buying a desktop touch screen - it makes far more sense.

How do you like the Logitech touchpad?  I've been debating getting one.  It seems to me better peripherals like this is what really gives Windows 8 the chance to shine, and I'm surprised there isn't anything like this coming directly from Microsoft (they are pretty good at keyboards and mice) nor is there much variety from anybody else.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
dradam
Senior MemberPosts: 2,597
Like?
Re: "Pie in the Sky Drive" out here...
In reply to migibson99, Apr 27, 2013

migibson99 wrote:

Michael Firstlight wrote:

For the desktop, Metro is awful.

Worse, I am a developer and installed the very first developer preview edition within the first hour of its release

This is the part of the "debate" that perplexes me.    I don't know you well enough to call you an expert, but  given that you are a developer, I would assume you have a reasonably good idea of what you are talking about.  You appear to be someone who can comment knowledgably about Windows 8, and you are critical, yet many proponents of Windows 8 dismiss all criticsm as coming from people who are lazy or not techically savy (among other things).   You seem to be neither.

I just don't see how people can be so dismissive of criticism.    At what point do you stop blaming the user, and look to the software itself?

There are many many valid criticisms of Windows 8.  The reason I and others feel that much of the reaction to Windows 8 to be "knee-jerk" (for lack of a better term) is that people seem so confused over truly simple tasks.

Take Michael for example.  He appears to be technically proficient (being a developer and all) but then we get this:

"The blocks themselves are too big, two dimensional, you can't place them where you want, you have to scroll across multiple screens to find and locate programs"

The blocks are resizable, groupable, and it is as simple as clicking and dragging to move them around.  It is so remarkably, bafflingly easy to do all this that for Michael to be unable to figure it out implies that he is either really really stupid (unlikely) or just hasn't even made the effort to try.

I honestly couldn't care less if people didn't like or didn't want Windows 8.  What I find strange are those that spend so much time condemning it without apparently having even tried it.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
skyglider
Senior MemberPosts: 2,871Gear list
Like?
Re: "Pie in the Sky Drive" out here...
In reply to Abrak, Apr 27, 2013

Abrak wrote:

Actually it takes precisely 'one-click' to shut down windows 8. All you do is click either the 'shutdown' 'sleep' or 'restart' tiles that you have put on your Windows 8 start menu.

Many users don't know (or want to know) how to customize Win8 to install one click tiles on the Win8 UI.  They just want it easy to use out of the box.  Why MS refused to realize that and just put the Restart and Shutdown tiles on the Win8 UI as defaults and decided to bury them in "Settings" (of all places) is mind boggling to me.

As a matter of fact, most of the people I know don't want to Google to learn how to set up ANY version of Windows.  They just learned how to open programs using the desktop's Start menu and just want to continue doing it that way.  I taught them how to install desktop shortcuts on their WinXP to Win7 PCs and I installed the shortcuts they usually use for them.  Fast forward a few years later, they only have the shortcuts I installed for them and open all other software that they subsequently installed (that did not auto install desktop shortcuts for them), using the desktop's Start Menu.  They don't remember how to install desktop shortcuts any more and don't want to take the time to try to relearn how to do it.

MS should not have removed the desktop's Start Menu from Win8, and should have also included an option to boot directly to the desktop.  What would have been the harm in keeping all of the desktop's capability intact?  If Win8's user interface is that good, users would naturally migrate to it without an attempt to be forced to use the Win8 UI.

Sky

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Shalom2006
Regular MemberPosts: 260Gear list
Like?
Re: Why Win8 will succeed. Or fail.
In reply to Simon Garrett, Apr 27, 2013

I must admit I have not read every post in this thread, but will add a short comment, as I've been using Windows 8 from the beta to now.

I really dislike the metro tiles and installed Start8 & only use that to shutdown the PC or Alt/F4. The programs I use are all on my desktop taskbar (I rarely use the desktop anyway, apart from looking at my current favourite photo!)

For searching I use Everything (by http://www.voidtools.com/) - that beats the hell out of Windows search, in my opinion.

Windows 8 works very fast with my SSD and has never crashed (compared to Windows 7), so I'm delighted by it

-- hide signature --

Best Regards
Steven
Chigwell, UK

 Shalom2006's gear list:Shalom2006's gear list
Canon EOS 5D Canon EF 24-105mm f/4L IS USM Canon EF 70-300mm f/4-5.6 IS USM
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads