Does anyone care about moire?

Started Apr 8, 2013 | Discussions
sigala1
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Does anyone care about moire?
Apr 8, 2013

Camera makers finally got the message. They always got dinged for having a resolution-destroying optical-low-pass filter, but no reviews ever say anything bad about moire. So Nikon finally decided to give the reviewers what they really want, although if you look at most new cameras, the OLPF is very weak and most current DSLRs make moire on this coin. The E-M5 hardly has any moire, so I included that as a comparison.

I personally would prefer slightly less resolution and no moire.

Reilly Diefenbach
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Re: Does anyone care about moire?
In reply to sigala1, Apr 8, 2013

24000 pixels out of 24,000,000. Is it really worth blurring the rest of the picture?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/51747496@N08/8630532806/sizes/o/in/photostream/

103kb

5 seconds with the LR4 moire brush.

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Stacey_K
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Re: Does anyone care about moire?
In reply to sigala1, Apr 8, 2013

sigala1 wrote:


I personally would prefer slightly less resolution and no moire.

I agree. It's like CA, even if it can be fixed in photoshop, it shouldn't be there to start with. It's just one more step that you have to look for this defect and fix required for each image..

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fotolopithecus
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Re: Does anyone care about moire?
In reply to sigala1, Apr 8, 2013


The more moire the merrier.

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JimPearce
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I'm so glad I have a D7000 that is out of date...
In reply to sigala1, Apr 8, 2013

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Shakens
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Re: Does anyone care about moire?
In reply to sigala1, Apr 8, 2013

just buy a Dslr with a optical-low-pass filter then, you don't have to buy the D7100.

it normal every day use you're not going to see any moire
just having less resolution wont mean no moire or we wouldn't have most cameras with a optical-low-pass filter now would we

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Reilly Diefenbach
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Re: Does anyone care about moire?
In reply to Reilly Diefenbach, Apr 8, 2013

Fear of moire may be contagious, but I might point out that I have never seen moire or touched the moire brush in about ten thousand shots with the D800e, nor do I know anyone who has.  The D7100 should be similar.  It's your funeral if you want to throw away the extra resolution, color and contrast simply because you might possibly have to brush for thirty seconds.

If there are closely spaced vertical slats,you might want to keep an eye out for it:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/51747496@N08/8339091543/sizes/o/in/set-72157630696943482/

but for the most part it will not even be worth fixing:

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coudet
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Re: I'm so glad I have a D7000 that is out of date...
In reply to JimPearce, Apr 8, 2013

JimPearce wrote:

Why, though? It's pretty bad too: link.

It's actually even slightly worse than D7100 in some other areas of the test scene, look left of those colored cotton balls (or whatever they are!) or at that red net (?), left of the card. There's no substitute for more megapixels. It would have been even better if it had AA filter, but it is what it is.

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coudet
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Re: Does anyone care about moire?
In reply to sigala1, Apr 8, 2013

sigala1 wrote:

 The E-M5 hardly has any moire, so I included that as a comparison.

E-M5 also shows aliasing in the test scene.

I personally would prefer slightly less resolution and no moire.

Wrong answer.

The correct answer is: more resolution and no aliasing artifacts. How do you get that, the best of both worlds? More megapixels + AA filter.

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Mark Buckley
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Re: how about moire in Video ?
In reply to coudet, Apr 8, 2013

as someone considering a D7100 (although more like D7000 or D5200) - how much of an issue is Moire in Videos ? or when the camera outputs from the sensor to lowly 1080p - does it become a non-issue ?

just thinking that Moire is not too difficult to remove on still images- but I guess harder to remove in video ?

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Whalligeo
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Re: Does anyone care about moire?
In reply to sigala1, Apr 8, 2013

It seems a perfectly reasonable development to remove the AA filter in the pursuance of technical excellence, regardless of what the press have to say (most journos are blind anyway). Moire is kicking around in quite a few cameras, yet no one is making a fuss about that. The irony is that when the moire pitches up on an AA filtered camera that is supposed to remove the moire, its almost noticed, and yet when we have a camera the isn't supposed to remove the moire by way of AA filter, because it isn't fitted, it gets loads of attention.

All of the following have moire in the same part of the picture, some better, some worse. Most with AA filter.

D4, D600, D800, D800e, D3200, D5100, D5200, D7000,

Canon EOS 5D MkII, (bloody awful), Canon EOS 5D MkIII (same), Canon EOS 6D,

The best camera is the Pentax 645D (as a reasonably priced expensive camera), but I'm guessing that is not what folk are looking for, but it is a clear demonstration how good MF is.

Moire is a fact of life, and its going to be around for a while longer. But, there is a button for it.

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They said it couldn't be done, so I encouraged my peers not to bother.

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Whalligeo
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Re: how about moire in Video ?
In reply to Mark Buckley, Apr 8, 2013

Mark Buckley wrote:

as someone considering a D7100 (although more like D7000 or D5200) - how much of an issue is Moire in Videos ? or when the camera outputs from the sensor to lowly 1080p - does it become a non-issue ?

just thinking that Moire is not too difficult to remove on still images- but I guess harder to remove in video ?

Here is a review http://youtu.be/_gbf-CDd-AY moire is discussed at 10:00 into the vid. It's none event.

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They said it couldn't be done, so I encouraged my peers not to bother.

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BlueBomberTurbo
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Re: how about moire in Video ?
In reply to Whalligeo, Apr 8, 2013
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Bailey151
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Re: Does anyone care about moire?
In reply to Reilly Diefenbach, Apr 8, 2013

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

24000 pixels out of 24,000,000. Is it really worth blurring the rest of the picture?

Exactly - remind me again what % of pics would this affect? Personally I don't take pics of fabric for a living.

sigala1 wrote:

I personally would prefer slightly less resolution and no moire.

No thanks, I'll take resolution and detail - deal with moire in the handful of images it may impact.

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scokill
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Re: Does anyone care about moire? NO..(nt)
In reply to sigala1, Apr 8, 2013
No text.
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olliess
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Re: Does anyone care about moire?
In reply to Reilly Diefenbach, Apr 8, 2013

Reilly Diefenbach wrote:

Fear of moire may be contagious, but I might point out that I have never seen moire or touched the moire brush in about ten thousand shots with the D800e, nor do I know anyone who has....

If there are closely spaced vertical slats,you might want to keep an eye out for it:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/51747496@N08/8339091543/sizes/o/in/set-72157630696943482/

but for the most part it will not even be worth fixing:

Is the pink/green striping on the panels of the taller rectangular building on the horizon a moire effect?

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Nexu1
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Re: Does anyone care about moire?
In reply to sigala1, Apr 8, 2013

Which would be more noticeable on an 8x10 or 24x36 print, the moire or the increase in resolution?  I doubt many could see either without deeply searching for it from a few inches away.

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olliess
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Re: Does anyone care about moire?
In reply to coudet, Apr 8, 2013

coudet wrote:

sigala1 wrote:

I personally would prefer slightly less resolution and no moire.

Wrong answer.

The correct answer is: more resolution and no aliasing artifacts. How do you get that, the best of both worlds? More megapixels + AA filter.

I think sigala1 had it right. It's less resolution from the same spatial sampling rate, or else a higher sampling rate (more megapixels) for a given resolution, to avoid aliasing.

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sigala1
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Re: Does anyone care about moire?
In reply to Nexu1, Apr 8, 2013

Nexu1 wrote:

Which would be more noticeable on an 8x10 or 24x36 print, the moire or the increase in resolution?  I doubt many could see either without deeply searching for it from a few inches away.

The moire patterns like the one seen on the coin do NOT go away when you downsize the photo. But the loss of resolution from a strong OLPF filter becomes invisible when you do that.

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sigala1
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How much resolution is ENOUGH or TOO MUCH?
In reply to sigala1, Apr 8, 2013

I think there's a rather weird disconnect.

When Nikon first introduced 24 MP APS-C cameras, everyone said, "oh my god, that's TOO MUCH resolution, no one needs that much resolution or can do anything with it."

But when Nikon removes the OLPF so that the 24 MP sensor can have even more resolution, everyone praises this as the smart thing to do.

I don't get it. Is 24 MP too much resolution, or not enough resolution?

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