Press events on Tuesday, April 23, 2013?

Started Apr 7, 2013 | Discussions
TTMartin
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Press events on Tuesday, April 23, 2013?
Apr 7, 2013

From Canon Rumors:

New Stuff!

We’re told Canon is holding press events on Tuesday, April 23, 2013. We have not seen any official invites, but this does come from a known source. I will post any invites I receive here to confirm.

No mention of what products to expect, though I would think an announcement for the EOS 70D must be close.

Pay close attention to the new sensor in the Canon EOS SL1 as far as performance goes. We’re told this sensor will appear in the EOS 70D, but not the EOS 7D Mark II.

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Don Richardson
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Re: Press events on Tuesday, April 23, 2013?
In reply to TTMartin, Apr 7, 2013

TTMartin wrote:

From Canon Rumors:

New Stuff!

We’re told Canon is holding press events on Tuesday, April 23, 2013. We have not seen any official invites, but this does come from a known source. I will post any invites I receive here to confirm.

No mention of what products to expect, though I would think an announcement for the EOS 70D must be close.

Pay close attention to the new sensor in the Canon EOS SL1 as far as performance goes. We’re told this sensor will appear in the EOS 70D, but not the EOS 7D Mark II.

I'm hoping this last rumor is just that, a rumor and not a fact. After having a 18MP sensor for so long I want something other than a reworked 18MP sensor for the next 3 or 4 years. Course it could be an 18MP "miracle" sensor but I doubt it. Guess we'll need to set back and see what happens but I've already started thing lens up-date's instead of camera.

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Thorbard
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Re: Press events on Tuesday, April 23, 2013?
In reply to Don Richardson, Apr 7, 2013

What do you need more than 18MP for, other than bragging rights?

Improved sensors are good, more MP for no reason seems like a step backward.

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elfroggio
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Re: Press events on Tuesday, April 23, 2013?
In reply to Thorbard, Apr 7, 2013

Thorbard wrote:

What do you need more than 18MP for, other than bragging rights?

Yes there other reasons. Like, I have had customers requesting 30+ megapixels files in their RFPs.  They don't know, somebody told them about the D800 and the 36 megapixels. A 36 megapixels photos must be twice better than an 18 megapixels photo, so they request it.

BTW, notice that although the 36 megapixels is "twice better" than the 18mpx, they do not want to pay twice more for a "twice better" photo.

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springbock
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Re: Press events on Tuesday, April 23, 2013?
In reply to Thorbard, Apr 7, 2013

If you are a nature photographer especially birds more pixels is great for cropping. After all the 7D was built for nature and sports photography. Probably even more so for nature. And Not all of us want to spend $10,000 for a 500 f4 II. Hell thats just one lens. There is other lenses like macros and bodies and flashes and bags and tripods and heads and accessories etc. Not to mention other hobbies and commitments that eats up our disposable income. Besides being expensive the big white teles are also big and heavy.

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altair8800
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Re: Press events on Tuesday, April 23, 2013?
In reply to springbock, Apr 8, 2013

springbock wrote:

If you are a nature photographer especially birds more pixels is great for cropping. After all the 7D was built for nature and sports photography. Probably even more so for nature. And Not all of us want to spend $10,000 for a 500 f4 II. Hell thats just one lens. There is other lenses like macros and bodies and flashes and bags and tripods and heads and accessories etc. Not to mention other hobbies and commitments that eats up our disposable income. Besides being expensive the big white teles are also big and heavy.

Exactly right! Fom 18Mp to 24Mp is like a lossless 1.15x TC if noise is no worse. A 400mm would give the same number of pixels on target as 460mm with only 18Mp. For those considering the 500mm f4 II (including me), that would look like 575mm.

Even better, 36Mp would be like a 1.4x TC and 400mm would look like 560mm (pixels on target).

Dan

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Don Richardson
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Re: Press events on Tuesday, April 23, 2013?
In reply to Thorbard, Apr 8, 2013

Thorbard wrote:

What do you need more than 18MP for, other than bragging rights?

Improved sensors are good, more MP for no reason seems like a step backward.

Those of use that shoot wildlife and can't afford the $11-$15,000.00 each to join the Long lens club need all the good MP's we can get for cropping. Only time will tell us the quality of each sensor.

Besides, there's this thing called competition. If your competition is offering 24MP's -51pt AF - dual card slots for $1200.00 bucks and your offering 18MP's - 19pt AF and dual card slots for $2200.00 bucks, someone is going to notice they're getting more for their money from your competition and you lose business. Of course, you'll be able to come up with all kinds of excuse's for your short comings but you still lost sales to the new comer to photography and gave your competition a chance to up their % of sales. Competition, sometimes it's an ugly word, especially if you're loosing.

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TTMartin
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Re: Press events on Tuesday, April 23, 2013?
In reply to Don Richardson, Apr 8, 2013

Don Richardson wrote:

Besides, there's this thing called competition. If your competition is offering 24MP's -51pt AF - dual card slots for $1200.00 bucks and your offering 18MP's - 19pt AF and dual card slots for $2200.00 bucks, someone is going to notice they're getting more for their money from your competition and you lose business. Of course, you'll be able to come up with all kinds of excuse's for your short comings but you still lost sales to the new comer to photography and gave your competition a chance to up their % of sales. Competition, sometimes it's an ugly word, especially if you're loosing.

Well given that the 7D is priced within $100 of the D7100, and honestly now that the DPReview D7100 studio shots are up I'm not impressed.

DPReview 7D vs D7100 RAW @ ISO 3200

Also, no one has said that the 7D Mk II is going to have the same sensor as the 100D/SL1, only that the 70D will.

Anyone who complains about the state of Canon's dynamic range, needs to go over to Imaging Resources and download the T4i CR2 file of their sunlit portrait (female mannequin in white shirt holding flowers / deep shadows in background). Choose the ISO 100, +.7 EV one (because of course Canon shooters ETTR). Process it in the latest version of DPP. Under the RAW tab change the picture style to neutral, bring highlights down, shadows up, turn on the highlight alert and bring over all exposure down till there are no alerts (-.33). Go to the RGB tab Choose the strong tone curve assist (one with the +).

Look at the picture and then tell me how Canon has an issue with DR.

Sounds like too much work? test out the ALO while you are at it

People who complain about Canon's DR either aren't doing their RAW conversion in DPP, or aren't actually using Canon cameras.

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Thorbard
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Re: Press events on Tuesday, April 23, 2013?
In reply to elfroggio, Apr 8, 2013

elfroggio wrote:

Thorbard wrote:

What do you need more than 18MP for, other than bragging rights?

Yes there other reasons. Like, I have had customers requesting 30+ megapixels files in their RFPs.  They don't know, somebody told them about the D800 and the 36 megapixels. A 36 megapixels photos must be twice better than an 18 megapixels photo, so they request it.

BTW, notice that although the 36 megapixels is "twice better" than the 18mpx, they do not want to pay twice more for a "twice better" photo.

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Sounds like some expectation management is required there...

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phill104
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Re: Press events on Tuesday, April 23, 2013?
In reply to Don Richardson, Apr 8, 2013

Don Richardson wrote

Besides, there's this thing called competition. If your competition is offering 24MP's -51pt AF - dual card slots for $1200.00 bucks and your offering 18MP's - 19pt AF and dual card slots for $2200.00 bucks, someone is going to notice they're getting more for their money from your competition and you lose business. Of course, you'll be able to come up with all kinds of excuse's for your short comings but you still lost sales to the new comer to photography and gave your competition a chance to up their % of sales. Competition, sometimes it's an ugly word, especially if you're loosing.

If I want to shoot wildlife do I want a 24mp camera that only shoots 6 frames before filling the buffer? As for focus points how many wildlife photographers out there actually use them all? Most of the time I use the center one so while it might be nice to have the numbers I would prefer to have less but make them really good, to work to F8 and to work in low contrast situations, even better would be to have 19 really good F8 capable sensors linked to eye control as that would be superb. Numbers like above really are not everything.

All is speculation, just wait and see what Canon release. They have not been one of the top brands for so many years without actually having some idea as to what they are doing.

On the subject of the current 18mp sensors from the spect the new ones seem very different to the older version we have in the current 7D and the images seem to bear that out. Just because it is 18mp does not mean it is the same sensor. As a guess I am betting that Canon stuck with that size because the Digic 5 probably begins to struggle with a higher pixel count. Changing to a new processor too early would increase cost.

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jrkliny
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Re: Press events on Tuesday, April 23, 2013?
In reply to TTMartin, Apr 8, 2013

It is hard to believe that Canon will again bring out another upgraded camera model with the old 18 mpix sensor.

What is even harder to believe are the responses from the loyal Canon users on this forum.  I can hear the arguments already.  First the 18 mpix sensor will not be the same old thing, but somehow it will be new and improved.  Unfortunately that argument will fall apart once the lab studies and reviews are completed.  Even so, instead of wondering what is going on with Canon's slow progress, there will be many attacks on the reviewers and the methods they use.

Already we are being told that there is no reason for more megapixels.  Somehow printing landscapes at 13x19 or 17x25.5 or 20x30 is just not reasonable for the loyal Canoniers.

Yup, just go out and shoot and don't be concerned about not having improved gear.

I could go on and list a few dozen "arguments" in defense of Canon, but that is also pointless.  We will see all of them with lengthy discussions and embellishments.  At one time I tried to make a list of all of these "arguments" but the list got long, some Canoniers got upset and the moderators locked the thread.

Of course, we are just talking rumors at this point.  Unfortunately I suspect the rumors are true.  Canon was way in the lead with affordable DSLR cameras.  Canon brought out some outstanding models such as the 7D but somehow for the past several years there has been little or no progress and the competition appears to be moving ahead at a rapid rate.

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Howard
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Re: Press events on Tuesday, April 23, 2013?
In reply to jrkliny, Apr 8, 2013

Be careful, you've touched a nerve here. There are some loyal Canon fanboys here who will shout down anyone who dares to criticize Canon, however slightly.

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jrkliny
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Re: Press events on Tuesday, April 23, 2013?
In reply to Howard, Apr 8, 2013

Howard, watch it.  They don't want to be called fans.

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elfroggio
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Re: Press events on Tuesday, April 23, 2013?
In reply to Thorbard, Apr 8, 2013

Thorbard wrote:

elfroggio wrote:

Thorbard wrote:

What do you need more than 18MP for, other than bragging rights?

Yes there other reasons. Like, I have had customers requesting 30+ megapixels files in their RFPs.  They don't know, somebody told them about the D800 and the 36 megapixels. A 36 megapixels photos must be twice better than an 18 megapixels photo, so they request it.

BTW, notice that although the 36 megapixels is "twice better" than the 18mpx, they do not want to pay twice more for a "twice better" photo.

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Sounds like some expectation management is required there...

No, these are RFPs, Request For Proposal. They state what they want and you (in this case me) have to quote a price for their requirements, and they made the 30 megapixles a requirement. No 30mpx, no work. I get around it when it's "landscapes" by doing panoramas and supplying the 50 to 100mpx photos.

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jrkliny
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Re: Press events on Tuesday, April 23, 2013?
In reply to elfroggio, Apr 8, 2013

Interesting.  What types of clients are specifying a 30 mp minimum file?

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Don Richardson
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Re: Press events on Tuesday, April 23, 2013?
In reply to TTMartin, Apr 8, 2013

TTMartin wrote:

Don Richardson wrote:

Besides, there's this thing called competition. If your competition is offering 24MP's -51pt AF - dual card slots for $1200.00 bucks and your offering 18MP's - 19pt AF and dual card slots for $2200.00 bucks, someone is going to notice they're getting more for their money from your competition and you lose business. Of course, you'll be able to come up with all kinds of excuse's for your short comings but you still lost sales to the new comer to photography and gave your competition a chance to up their % of sales. Competition, sometimes it's an ugly word, especially if you're loosing.

Well given that the 7D is priced within $100 of the D7100, and honestly now that the DPReview D7100 studio shots are up I'm not impressed.

DPReview 7D vs D7100 RAW @ ISO 3200

Also, no one has said that the 7D Mk II is going to have the same sensor as the 100D/SL1, only that the 70D will.

Anyone who complains about the state of Canon's dynamic range, needs to go over to Imaging Resources and download the T4i CR2 file of their sunlit portrait (female mannequin in white shirt holding flowers / deep shadows in background). Choose the ISO 100, +.7 EV one (because of course Canon shooters ETTR). Process it in the latest version of DPP. Under the RAW tab change the picture style to neutral, bring highlights down, shadows up, turn on the highlight alert and bring over all exposure down till there are no alerts (-.33). Go to the RGB tab Choose the strong tone curve assist (one with the +).

Look at the picture and then tell me how Canon has an issue with DR.

Sounds like too much work? test out the ALO while you are at it

People who complain about Canon's DR either aren't doing their RAW conversion in DPP, or aren't actually using Canon cameras.

I used to make almost the same arguments when Olympus said 12MP's was enough and I was an Olympus fan boy. I'm not a fan boy of anything now. Like I said, If you're behind the competition you can always find excuses.

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TTMartin
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Re: Press events on Tuesday, April 23, 2013?
In reply to Don Richardson, Apr 8, 2013

Don Richardson wrote:

TTMartin wrote:

Don Richardson wrote:

Besides, there's this thing called competition. If your competition is offering 24MP's -51pt AF - dual card slots for $1200.00 bucks and your offering 18MP's - 19pt AF and dual card slots for $2200.00 bucks, someone is going to notice they're getting more for their money from your competition and you lose business. Of course, you'll be able to come up with all kinds of excuse's for your short comings but you still lost sales to the new comer to photography and gave your competition a chance to up their % of sales. Competition, sometimes it's an ugly word, especially if you're loosing.

Well given that the 7D is priced within $100 of the D7100, and honestly now that the DPReview D7100 studio shots are up I'm not impressed.

DPReview 7D vs D7100 RAW @ ISO 3200

Also, no one has said that the 7D Mk II is going to have the same sensor as the 100D/SL1, only that the 70D will.

Anyone who complains about the state of Canon's dynamic range, needs to go over to Imaging Resources and download the T4i CR2 file of their sunlit portrait (female mannequin in white shirt holding flowers / deep shadows in background). Choose the ISO 100, +.7 EV one (because of course Canon shooters ETTR). Process it in the latest version of DPP. Under the RAW tab change the picture style to neutral, bring highlights down, shadows up, turn on the highlight alert and bring over all exposure down till there are no alerts (-.33). Go to the RGB tab Choose the strong tone curve assist (one with the +).

Look at the picture and then tell me how Canon has an issue with DR.

Sounds like too much work? test out the ALO while you are at it

People who complain about Canon's DR either aren't doing their RAW conversion in DPP, or aren't actually using Canon cameras.

I used to make almost the same arguments when Olympus said 12MP's was enough and I was an Olympus fan boy. I'm not a fan boy of anything now. Like I said, If you're behind the competition you can always find excuses.

Where in my post am I talking about the number of megapixels?

Now if you told me that the comparison of the 7D and D7100 are at 1 to 1 and if I down sampled the D7100 to 18mp the D7100 would be just as sharp and have the same amount of noise as the 7D. Then I would say what is the point of having more megapixels?

Of course if we want to talk about megapixels, it would also be appropriate to bring up that in order for the D7100 to get near the FPS and half the RAW buffer performance of the 7D, you have to use 15mp cropped crop mode.

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Bangers and Mash
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So bigger is better?
In reply to jrkliny, Apr 8, 2013

jrkliny wrote:

Yup, just go out and shoot and don't be concerned about not having improved gear.

People today talk about megapixels with the notion that more is better. Hogwash!! It isn't all about how many there are. Case in point. Many years ago I purchased a Nikon D70, and on the wall of the camera shop was an amazing print of a beautiful young lady. I can't remember the size of the print, but it was very large. Big enough to fill the average wall in a home. I recall asking the salesman that sold me the camera, what was used to produce something so clear and sharp. It was a Nikon D100, which predated my D70 that had a whopping 6.1 megapixels. I can't remember the exact size, but I do know that it was 6.something. Now do we really need more than 18 megapixels or are we all caught up in this manufacturers hype to sell cameras each year by convincing us that more is better. That's what they have done with the P&S bunch. They trade up to what they feel is a much better camera because the new one has oodles more pixels than the one they own . . . which is sufficient for what a P&S is for. I had an old Canon Elf that had 2.1 megapixels and it was fine up to an 8x10, and how many people out there that use a P&S camera blow up a print larger than that. Isn't it the same thing with a pro or semi pro camera. Is 24 better than 18? Is 18 better than 16? I bought my 7D because I wanted to try my hand at BIF photography. I didn't get it because it had 18 megapixels which is more than the Nikon D7000 has that I was looking at. I bought it because I felt it was the right camera for the job . . . and it is. So is having a 7D Mark II with more pixels going to make it a better camera? I don't think so. Anyway, nuff said. You really don't want to hear me rattle on, because there is a chance that I'm wrong . . . and I have been known to be wrong on the odd occasion 

Cheers

Wayne

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jrkliny
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In reply to Bangers and Mash, Apr 8, 2013

Bangers and Mash wrote:

You really don't want to hear me rattle on, because there is a chance that I'm wrong . . . and I have been known to be wrong on the odd occasion 

Cheers

Wayne

Sure there have been cameras with more megapixels and the overall performance was degraded.  There are lots of P&S cameras with lots of pixels but with too much noise.  It appears that the new 24 mp sensors in the Nikons are now also giving at least equivalent or slightly improved dynamic range with less noise than the outdated Canon 18 mp sensor.

Regarding the pixel count for large prints:

The highest quality prints are usually made at 300 dpi.  For a 13x19 print that would require about 22 mpixels.  Is it always necessary to print at that quality?  Absolutely not.  I have a great portrait of both my kids that was printed even larger and the camera was a 5 mp point and shoot.  Even for landscapes where detail is important, 300 dpi is not a necessity.  Prints at around 240 dpi are very close in quality.  Printing on matte papers or canvas also helps overcome some loss of detail.

Regardless of the quest for perfection or the techniques used, more pixels can give better resolution and better options for large prints.  As long as we are paying hundreds or thousands of dollars for a camera body, it seems reasonable to look for state of the art performance.

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TTMartin
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Re: So bigger is better?
In reply to jrkliny, Apr 8, 2013

jrkliny wrote:

Bangers and Mash wrote:

You really don't want to hear me rattle on, because there is a chance that I'm wrong . . . and I have been known to be wrong on the odd occasion 

Cheers

Wayne

Sure there have been cameras with more megapixels and the overall performance was degraded.  There are lots of P&S cameras with lots of pixels but with too much noise.  It appears that the new 24 mp sensors in the Nikons are now also giving at least equivalent or slightly improved dynamic range with less noise than the outdated Canon 18 mp sensor. . .

That's not what I see.

DPReview 7D vs D7100 RAW @ ISO 3200

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