LX7 - does its IQ compete with e.g. Sony RX100?

Started Apr 6, 2013 | Discussions
Mikedigi
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Re: LX7 - does its IQ compete with e.g. Sony RX100?
In reply to sjprg, Apr 6, 2013

sjprg wrote:

I have an LX5, a 1DS3, a D800E and the RX100. For daylight images the IQ of the RX100 comes very close to the 1DS3, and is close enough to the D800E for 80% of close landscapes. The LX5 now just sits in the glovebox for grab shots. I never shoot in the dark so I can't speak to High ISO. With this experience I don't see how the LX7 could exceed these for daylight.

Thanks Paul, that's what I would expect from the specs.

Mike

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Erik Ohlson
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Re: LX7 - does its IQ compete with e.g. Sony RX100?
In reply to Mikedigi, Apr 7, 2013

Mikedigi wrote:

Erik Ohlson wrote:I recently bought both an LX7 and a Canon S-100 to see for myself what allthe fuss with "larger sensor" is about. . . . . . . .

Thanks Erik, I am surprised to read that you bought those 2 cameras, as I thought you were all for ultracompact superzooms, i.e. the TZs/ZSs.

Interesting - thanks for your thoghts.

Mike

Hi, Mike,

Yes, after hearing the paeans about the wonderfully superior IQ of larger sensor cameras, I decided to just check it out. I could have used my son in law's s100, but that would be a hassle and leave him cameraless. BTW, he shoots LOTS of video.

After all, I can re-sell the cameras at very little loss - what's money for?

So far I am hugely unimpressed, but I have to find a better place to test cameras: you may recall my aperture tests - that horse who was the "Hazard" is now on the lookout and comes over for some human interaction as soon as I show up and views of a gray hors's nostril don't provide a valid test 

So, at this point I'm reserving judgement.

BTW, I also bought one of the Canon TX-1's that Cyril Catt uses - mostly because it will do "Super Macro" focus right up to the front element of the lens. The strange thing about the TX-1 is that it's "only a 10x zoom" - but it's 1.9 digital zoom is actually a tad SHARPER than the ZS19. But the 19 is a LOT easier to use, and the difference is fairly minor. Please note the red paper box reading "Morgan Hill Times". Sorry the ZS19 shot is crooked - I was avoiding that silly horse, and may have defeated the OIS 

I'm not positive these are the correct images - I'll check the EXIF after posting and remove the post if they are incorrect.

They appear to be the correct images - the difference may well be the smaller aperture of the ZS19.

-Erik

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Erik Ohlson
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Re: LX7 - does its IQ compete with e.g. Sony RX100?
In reply to Markr041, Apr 7, 2013

Markr041 wrote:

Erik Ohlson wrote:

Markr041 wrote:

Erik Ohlson wrote:

Sean Nelson wrote:

Erik Ohlson wrote:

Interestingly, both of these wider-aperture cameras, LX7 & S-100 have built-in ND filters so one can shoot wide open in daylight without severely over-exposing. Seems backwards to me. 

You obviously don't shoot many videos where an ND filter is needed to get lower shutter speeds in bright light.   People who are serious about video really love the camera for it's built-in ND filter.

Yes, "People who are serious about video!"

This category doesn't include me - I shoot video maybe once a year "whether I need to or not".

It's nice that you guys have the ND for that, but the same thing applies: aperture too large for daylight. And I hardly shoot stuff that can't take a higher ISO in "Low light', either 

And I have topaz DeNoiser for that.

SO. We're on different tracks. Cool.

-Erik

There are reasons, apart from video, to shoot wide open in bright light, :

- to play with shallower dof, when upping the shutter is not enough to achieve the correct exposure

-  to use a slow shutter (water falls) without having to close down the aperture and thereby lower the quality.

Really?

Actually, with these tiny focal length lenses (actual, not "equivalent") the DOF effects are negligible.

Don't take my word for it, Ming Thien is famous for his camera reviews and says in regard to LX7:

http://blog.mingthein.com/2013/03/25/leica-d-lux-6-panasonic-lx7/#more-5339

I actually advocate shooting at lears as wide as ƒ4.5 to minimize the diffraction effects that you may get in pursuing "DOF", which these small lenses have "in spades' anyway.

Please see this thread for more, and more detail on my findings:

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51182438

I DID shoot a waterfall, once, with film & an ND. 

-Erik

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"Actually, with these tiny focal length lenses (actual, not "equivalent") the DOF effects are negligible."

Really?  I do not have to rely on authorities, I have the camera. And there is a lot you can do with dof.

Here are some examples (if you do not like them, that is fine, but they show playing with dof):

And, at full telephoto (such as it is) and wide open, the dof is shallower on the LX7 than on the RX100. Look it up.

Mark, this no valid comparison.

Trying to increase DOF with aperture is countered by deleterious diffraction.

I never said that the small lens had INFINITE DOF, as you seem to be trying to prove.

-Erik

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kkardster
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Re: LX7 - does its IQ compete with e.g. Sony RX100?
In reply to Mikedigi, Apr 7, 2013

Mikedigi wrote:

Dunno, I don't have either, but these specs are intriguing:

LX7:       298g, 110x68x46mm, 1/1.7" (7.44x5.58mm) sensor, 10mp, 24-90mm efl.

RX100:   240g, 102x59x36mm, 1" (13.2x8.8mm) sensor, 20mp, 28-100mm efl.

One might say that the Sony's sensor area/weight ratio is impressive.

Mike

The sensor specs favor the RX100 but the brighter and sharper LX7 lens often makes up for its lesser sensor.  Therefore, one can often get very similar results with either.  If either camera meets your focal length needs, then price would favor the LX7.

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photo perzon
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No. You get what you pay for. RX100 is much much better.
In reply to Mikedigi, Apr 7, 2013

Mikedigi wrote:

Dunno, I don't have either, but these specs are intriguing:

LX7:       298g, 110x68x46mm, 1/1.7" (7.44x5.58mm) sensor, 10mp, 24-90mm efl.

RX100:   240g, 102x59x36mm, 1" (13.2x8.8mm) sensor, 20mp, 28-100mm efl.

One might say that the Sony's sensor area/weight ratio is impressive.

Mike

Much better.  I bought 4 LX7's now that the price is $ 299.

The pictures form the RX100 are much sharper.  The LX7 pictures are nowhere as sharp.

I kept buying LX7's as I felt there had to be something I missed.

No comparison.  Yes the LX7 will get the picture.  Yes it has a fast lens.

But Panasonic followers point out the LX3 and 5 were sharper.  I agree.   Also the bodies of the LX3 and 5 were better.  The LX7 feels cheaper.

Finally, the Sony has kept its astronomic price while the LX7 gets discounted to $ 299 all th etime.  Wonder why?  Is it because people are clueless?  No.  Its because they know they have to pay for performance.

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Ronomy
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Re: No. You get what you pay for. RX100 is much much better.
In reply to photo perzon, Apr 7, 2013

LOL! Difference isn't that big. LX7 is a fine camera! The Sony has a lot more pixels so yes it is sharper but once you start zooming the lens is slow.

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Cyril Catt
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Re: No. You get what you pay for. RX100 is much much better.
In reply to Ronomy, Apr 7, 2013

Ronomy wrote:

LOL! Difference isn't that big. LX7 is a fine camera! The Sony has a lot more pixels so yes it is sharper but once you start zooming the lens is slow.

Though not of importance for everybody, for the LX3 and LX5 Panasonic provided optional 18 mm equivalent accessory lenses, which provided a good, wide, fast kit for some awkward low-lit situations. Panasonic did not make a specific 18 mm wide angle lens or attachment for the LX7, but it can use the LX5's 18 mm accessory lens with an OEM lens attachment, because Panasonic did provide the LX7 with a bayonet fitting on the lens base.

Although an accessory wide-angle attachment does go against the desire to reduce equipment to a minimum, the LX3/5/7 with 18mm accessory lenses do provide quite good, fast, wide kits with less weight and bulk, and at considerably lower cost, than any DSLR equivalent.

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Mikedigi
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Re: LX7 - does its IQ compete with e.g. Sony RX100?
In reply to Erik Ohlson, Apr 7, 2013

Erik Ohlson wrote:

. . . . So, at this point I'm reserving judgement.

BTW, I also bought one of the Canon TX-1's that Cyril Catt uses . . . .

Thanks Erik - Sone interesting comments are coming forward.

For me, if am comparing lens or IQ, I only trust careful tripod work, on a demanding studio scene (including a range of shadows) or careful tripod work on a real life subject.

Mike

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Mikedigi
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Re: LX7 - does its IQ compete with e.g. Sony RX100?
In reply to kkardster, Apr 7, 2013

kkardster wrote:

The sensor specs favor the RX100 but the brighter and sharper LX7 lens often makes up for its lesser sensor.  Therefore, one can often get very similar results with either.  If either camera meets your focal length needs, then price would favor the LX7.

Thanks Bruce, have you used both?

The RX100 has no ND filter, does it? That's a con for me, at that price, or at any price. I have to get an ND filter for my FZ200.

Mike

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Mikedigi
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Re: No. You get what you pay for. RX100 is much much better.
In reply to Cyril Catt, Apr 7, 2013

Cyril Catt wrote:

Though not of importance for everybody, for the LX3 and LX5 Panasonic provided optional 18 mm equivalent accessory lenses, which provided a good, wide, fast kit for some awkward low-lit situations. Panasonic did not make a specific 18 mm wide angle lens or attachment for the LX7, but it can use the LX5's 18 mm accessory lens with an OEM lens attachment, because Panasonic did provide the LX7 with a bayonet fitting on the lens base.

Although an accessory wide-angle attachment does go against the desire to reduce equipment to a minimum, the LX3/5/7 with 18mm accessory lenses do provide quite good, fast, wide kits with less weight and bulk, and at considerably lower cost, than any DSLR equivalent.

Thanks Cyril, I knew nothing about that.

Mike

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Sdaniella
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Re: LX7 - does its IQ compete with e.g. Sony RX100? depends on one's expectations
In reply to Mikedigi, Apr 7, 2013

Mikedigi wrote:

Dunno, I don't have either, but these specs are intriguing:

LX7:       298g, 110x68x46mm, 1/1.7" (7.44x5.58mm) sensor, 10mp, 24-90mm efl.

RX100:   240g, 102x59x36mm, 1" (13.2x8.8mm) sensor, 20mp, 28-100mm efl.

One might say that the Sony's sensor area/weight ratio is impressive.

impressive?

it's all relative, and harder to judge without 'exemplar/benchmark/reference' points or 'context'

comparing 'big-body-big-sensor-big-pixels' on downwards towards to smaller and smaller till one has the opposite extreme of 'tiny-body-tiny-sensor-tiny-pixels' (and ergonomic compromises in exchange for 'pocketability')

ISO 6400 [worst possible to expect on your examples]:
5DMkIII (FF) vs PowerShot G1X (1.5") vs CyberShot RX-100 (1") vs Lumix LX7 (1/1.7")

it all depends on what you shoot, and what your tolerance is for noise vs NR distortion or smoothing vs fine details intact

at least the RX100 NR is 'smooth' even if sacrificing obscuring details at higher ISOs in lower light; whereas the LX7 is 'mottled' and noisy.

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Mikedigi
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Re: No. You get what you pay for. RX100 is much much better.
In reply to photo perzon, Apr 7, 2013

photo perzon wrote:

The pictures form the RX100 are much sharper.  The LX7 pictures are nowhere as sharp.

Seems to me that that big sensor ought to make a difference, on big landscape, where a 1/1.7" sensor is still pretty small.

Mike

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Mikedigi
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Re: LX7 - does its IQ compete with e.g. Sony RX100? depends on one's expectations
In reply to Sdaniella, Apr 7, 2013

Steve D Yue wrote:

ISO 6400 [worst possible to expect on your examples]:

Thanks for the comparison.

Mike

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kkardster
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Re: LX7 - does its IQ compete with e.g. Sony RX100?
In reply to Mikedigi, Apr 7, 2013

kkardster wrote:

The sensor specs favor the RX100 but the brighter and sharper LX7 lens often makes up for its lesser sensor.  Therefore, one can often get very similar results with either.  If either camera meets your focal length needs, then price would favor the LX7.

Thanks Bruce, have you used both?

The RX100 has no ND filter, does it? That's a con for me, at that price, or at any price. I have to get an ND filter for my FZ200.

Mike

Sorry no, I don't have either and I only reluctantly responded because of that. I was repeating a comment I've seen several times on both Panasonic and Sony forums.
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Erik Ohlson
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Re: LX7 - does its IQ compete with e.g. Sony RX100?
In reply to Mikedigi, Apr 7, 2013

Mikedigi wrote:

Erik Ohlson wrote:

. . . . So, at this point I'm reserving judgement.

BTW, I also bought one of the Canon TX-1's that Cyril Catt uses . . . .

Thanks Erik - Some interesting comments are coming forward.

For me, if am comparing lens or IQ, I only trust careful tripod work, on a demanding studio scene (including a range of shadows) or careful tripod work on a real life subject.

Mike

Good point, different goal.

Since I rarely even consider using a tripod, considering the very, very effective Panasonic OIS, I leave the tripod tests to Jimmy Brown and Ian Perigian, who do such meticulous work that it's pointless to second-guess them.

For my own use, I like to use a "natural" scene - specifically with some very good contrast area to focus on, some fine foliage to see what sort of "smearing" occurs, ans a convenient place - so, my neighbor's pasture, although that poor, bored, horse messes it up so often 

The reasoning is to do tests in a fairly "ideal" version of the conditions in which I will be taking pictures, not an artificial setup which would not resemble my typical shot.

Just a different "take" on things, as usual - YMMV 

-Erik

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Erik Ohlson
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Re: LX7 - does its IQ compete with e.g. Sony RX100?
In reply to Erik Ohlson, Apr 7, 2013

Erik Ohlson wrote:

Mikedigi wrote:

Erik Ohlson wrote:I recently bought both an LX7 and a Canon S-100 to see for myself what allthe fuss with "larger sensor" is about. . . . . . . .

Thanks Erik, I am surprised to read that you bought those 2 cameras, as I thought you were all for ultracompact superzooms, i.e. the TZs/ZSs.

Interesting - thanks for your thoghts.

Mike

Hi, Mike,

Yes, after hearing the paeans about the wonderfully superior IQ of larger sensor cameras, I decided to just check it out. I could have used my son in law's s100, but that would be a hassle and leave him cameraless. BTW, he shoots LOTS of video.

After all, I can re-sell the cameras at very little loss - what's money for?

So far I am hugely unimpressed, but I have to find a better place to test cameras: you may recall my aperture tests - that horse who was the "Hazard" is now on the lookout and comes over for some human interaction as soon as I show up and views of a gray hors's nostril don't provide a valid test 

So, at this point I'm reserving judgement.

BTW, I also bought one of the Canon TX-1's that Cyril Catt uses - mostly because it will do "Super Macro" focus right up to the front element of the lens. The strange thing about the TX-1 is that it's "only a 10x zoom" - but it's 1.9 digital zoom is actually a tad SHARPER than the ZS19. But the 19 is a LOT easier to use, and the difference is fairly minor. Please note the red paper box reading "Morgan Hill Times". Sorry the ZS19 shot is crooked - I was avoiding that silly horse, and may have defeated the OIS 

I'm not positive these are the correct images - I'll check the EXIF after posting and remove the post if they are incorrect.

They appear to be the correct images - the difference may well be the smaller aperture of the ZS19

Addendum: Turns out that the old, original TZ1 (10x zoom) doesn't do too badly, either. PSE8 screen grab after only a bit of brightening. File size reduced "For Web (high):

-Erik

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Undah
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Sony RX100 way better. Let's not kid ourselves..
In reply to Mikedigi, Apr 7, 2013

There is the rx100, and then there are the rest that compete for second place.

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ultimitsu
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Re: LX7 - does its IQ compete with e.g. Sony RX100?
In reply to kkardster, Apr 7, 2013

kkardster wrote:

The sensor specs favor the RX100 but the brighter and sharper LX7 lens often makes up for its lesser sensor.

This is a common misconception.

LX7 does not have a faster lens.

LX7's lens is 4.7mm F1.4, aperture is 3.6mm in diameter, actual opening is 10.2mm2

RX100's lens is 10mm F1.8, aperture is 5.6mm in diameter, actual opening is 24.6mm2

RX100's lens lets in 150% more light. it is much much brighter.

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ANAYV
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Re: LX7 - does its IQ compete with e.g. Sony RX100?
In reply to ultimitsu, Apr 7, 2013

ultimitsu wrote:

kkardster wrote:

The sensor specs favor the RX100 but the brighter and sharper LX7 lens often makes up for its lesser sensor.

This is a common misconception.

LX7 does not have a faster lens.

LX7's lens is 4.7mm F1.4, aperture is 3.6mm in diameter, actual opening is 10.2mm2

RX100's lens is 10mm F1.8, aperture is 5.6mm in diameter, actual opening is 24.6mm2

RX100's lens lets in 150% more light. it is much much brighter.

Yes...but shoot both and the LX7 lens will give the faster shutter speeds.

Faster glass as far as exposure...yes the LX7 has ' fast' glass....can't dispel this.

Put LX7 against full frame and all other things being equal, and both a lens on FF (f1.4) will give no faster shutter speed than the LX7 @ f1.4. Exposure is the same

so one can use the LX7 full wide open, and keep iso lower than say a camera with f2.8

that would make the other camera use 2 stops higher iso, and can add more noise and NR smearing (if shooting jpeg).

These smaller sensors need faster glass...this way one can shoot them more often at base iso, where the IQ is really good.Once higher iso is chosen...IQ goes south

RX100 sensor can't be under estimated...over 2.5 times larger than LX7 (I think) and high IQ even at high iso settings. I like the controls of the LX7...great for quick adjustments of many functions.

Multi aspect ratio sensor is also a benefit, giving closer to a 22mm wide end when shooting 16:9.

ANAYV

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Erik Ohlson
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Re: Sony RX100 way better. Let's not kid ourselves..
In reply to Undah, Apr 7, 2013

Undah wrote:

There is the rx100, and then there are the rest that compete for second place.

I have yet to see convincing evidence of this, and considering the dismal zoom range, I would't be in the market for that anyway.

-Erik

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