Sensor Size & Versatility

Started Apr 2, 2013 | Discussions
Biggs23
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Re: Sensor Size & Versatility
In reply to EinsteinsGhost, Apr 3, 2013

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

Biggs23 wrote:

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

There might be a few who would pick just one prime for their camera and live with it forever. But most would pick a zoom lens if only one lens were the option. Why? Versatility.

What's your point?

Explaining "versatility".

I don't think the word 'explaining' means what you think it means.

I would suggest that when you need such focal lengths, you might be better off using crop mode to have a greater optical reach.

Did you not catch the 'cropped to 50%' part?

You can do that with APS-C or smaller sensors too. But, I'm strictly speaking of optical reach (where your metering and composition are also affected).

Of course you can, but 50% of 16MP is only 8MP, whereas 50% of 36MP is 16MP. So...

And 24MP is... or 22MP is... or 20MP is... and so anybody who invests in a 300mm f/2.8 is a fool? Should get 200mm f/2.8 and crop?

How in the world did you get that from what I said?!

You clipped my original quote which added that the most versatile solution would be to carry both!

Your choice was: Pick one.

That's not my choice at all lol. I don't have to pick one and have not. I own zoom lenses from 14mm through 200mm at f/2.8 and I own a variety of 1.4 primes. I do not have to choose just one.

So, why do you spend on zoom lenses when you can get better quality and faster speed with primes?

Hint: Versatility.

Remember a few posts ago where I said that zooms were more versatile than primes? So why in the world are you rehashing it now?

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Biggs23
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Re: Sensor Size & Versatility
In reply to FrankS009, Apr 3, 2013

FrankS009 wrote:

Ouch! Eight pounds is not insignificant for anyone, worn or carried.

I guess I'm not 'anyone'. Eight pounds isn't anything to worry about. I carry around more than that every Saturday for 10 or so hours and never once have thought 'man, I wish this weighed less'.

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Erick L
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Re: Sensor Size & Versatility
In reply to EinsteinsGhost, Apr 3, 2013

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

Erick L wrote:

Versatility is not a function of sensor size.

What is? Let us talk about that specifically, if you want to skip sensor size as playing any role.

The whole system is. There's nothing inherent to sensor size that makes it versatile. Canikon aren't more versatile because they have FF but because they have the largest selection of everything. Sony also has FF, yet the F mount is more versatile, even if Nikon only had APS cameras.

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Sovern
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Re: Sensor Size & Versatility
In reply to Jorginho, Apr 3, 2013

Jorginho wrote:

P&S do not come close in IQ to a NEX6. Also, the lenses have much more versatility. RX1 has better IQ, but that sets you back 2700 euro and it is stil not as versatile.

It might not be as versatile but you're still lugging around lenses. Personally I'd rather just lug around a FF body and those lenses as 8LB's to me is nothing.

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plevyadophy
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Re: Sensor Size & Versatility
In reply to Biggs23, Apr 4, 2013

Biggs23 wrote:

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

Biggs23 wrote:

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

Biggs23 wrote:

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

I didn't pick his lenses. He picked his own, to advertise what he fits in a "small waist" belt. I picked mine, for focal lengths, I would normally carry which generally is about small, fast primes. If you want to take up the challenge, what kind of weight and size are you looking at with lenses to match the FoV I mentioned with a FF body?

Who cares about weight? I thought we were originally talking about image versatility?

Versatility of anything isn't about considering a select piece of the entire makeup. It is something's ability to adapt easily to several different situations.

Exactly, making my original (from the first thread) argument even stronger.

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Not really. Because your argument was one-dimensional whereas versatility is about being multi-dimensional. And generally speaking, Jack of all trades and master of none is better representative of versatility.

My argument is one dimensional in the sense that I'm only referring to image versatility. That said, it's really the only criteria that matters for a photographer, right?

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Any opinions I express are my own and do not represent DPReview.

Really, in this discussion i think versatility should include a comprise in image quality too because if it didn't then following your argument you would be arguing for shooting on medium format, and if you find most medium format cameras too large to carry then you would be looking at purchasing a Leica S camera at around $20K for lens and camera (which, off  the top of my head, gets you what, around ten Nikon D800 cams?)

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EinsteinsGhost
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Re: Sensor Size & Versatility
In reply to Sovern, Apr 4, 2013

Sovern wrote:

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

Continued discussion from: Is Full frame still the most versatile?

ljfinger wrote:

Not much...like I said, I use a small waist pack, and that includes a 70-200/2.8, a 24-105, a 15mm fisheye and a 35/1.4.

More than 8 lb of gear, even if held by a thin string does not describe my idea of small and light. OTOH, something like a Sony NEX-6 with 10-18mm f/4 OSS, 20mm f/2.8, 35mm f/1.8 OSS and 50mm f/1.8 OSS offers a far more practical, small and light set of camera and lenses for walk around, about 2 lb. It is something that won't get in the way while stopping for a family dinner on the way either.

It’s marketing. “Pros drive it, and so should you”, is the motto.

Olliess wrote:

No, it really just says "Taurus" on the shell. It has nothing to do with any Taurus you can buy at the dealer.  I don't understand what RWD has to do with it, though.

With that mindset instead of carrying around that Sony body and all of those prime lenses why not just get a P&S or Canon G1X?

You don't know why someone might prefer interchangeability, or a P&S?

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EinsteinsGhost
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Re: Sensor Size & Versatility
In reply to Biggs23, Apr 4, 2013

Biggs23 wrote:

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

Biggs23 wrote:

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

Delivering fools gold shouldn't be anybody's priority.

Agreed.

And no, an additional 2 lb won't break the back, for a bit longer, but if you that is your style, don't preach that shedding weight can't be done and hasn't been.

Of course it has! The process has just required many compromises which some people will find acceptable and some will not.

Which is necessary for versatility. An uncompromising position does not yield versatility.

Are we talking about personal interactions now or cameras?

Cameras. Stick with it.

Also... have you found those quotes yet?

Huh?

Read my previous posts. You stated that I said something that I did not and I'm asking you to quote where I said those things.

Be specific.

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EinsteinsGhost
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Re: Sensor Size & Versatility
In reply to Biggs23, Apr 4, 2013

Biggs23 wrote:

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

Biggs23 wrote:

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

There might be a few who would pick just one prime for their camera and live with it forever. But most would pick a zoom lens if only one lens were the option. Why? Versatility.

What's your point?

Explaining "versatility".

I don't think the word 'explaining' means what you think it means.

Use the way YOU think it means. And share here.

I would suggest that when you need such focal lengths, you might be better off using crop mode to have a greater optical reach.

Did you not catch the 'cropped to 50%' part?

You can do that with APS-C or smaller sensors too. But, I'm strictly speaking of optical reach (where your metering and composition are also affected).

Of course you can, but 50% of 16MP is only 8MP, whereas 50% of 36MP is 16MP. So...

And 24MP is... or 22MP is... or 20MP is... and so anybody who invests in a 300mm f/2.8 is a fool? Should get 200mm f/2.8 and crop?

How in the world did you get that from what I said?!

You went cropping. I added to the quality of your argument.

You clipped my original quote which added that the most versatile solution would be to carry both!

Your choice was: Pick one.

That's not my choice at all lol. I don't have to pick one and have not. I own zoom lenses from 14mm through 200mm at f/2.8 and I own a variety of 1.4 primes. I do not have to choose just one.

So, why do you spend on zoom lenses when you can get better quality and faster speed with primes?

Hint: Versatility.

Remember a few posts ago where I said that zooms were more versatile than primes? So why in the world are you rehashing it now?

To remind something you forget way too quickly.

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EinsteinsGhost
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Re: Sensor Size & Versatility
In reply to Biggs23, Apr 4, 2013

Biggs23 wrote:

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

Biggs23 wrote:

So you don't believe it's relevant to talk about one's experience? So why then do you talk about your experience studying the development of the NEX system? A person's experience in something is an important way to evaluate the quality of information being provided.

Your arguments should be a reflection of your experience. It is why I'd asked you to post action/sports shots for a specific condition earlier, since you were arguing about it.But you returned with an excuse that you don't do that, even with DSLR.

Could you quote where I was arguing about sports photography?

It starts here.

You also took offense to use of word "job"

I did? Could you quote that, too?

If I'd the patience to dig back. But there was a reason you decided to "disclose" your "real job", or no?

I'm not avoiding that argument, I'm saying it's foolhardy. We're talking about what's most versatile, not whether an APS-C NEX is more versatile than an APS-C dSLR. That's the argument YOU keep repeating ad nauseum but isn't really relevant to the discussion of overall versatility.

Correct, we ARE talking about versatility. And if I haven't made it clear in nearly half dozen posts, let me try again: my pick would be a NEX-6 today, simply because it is capable of being the Jack of All Trades but master of none.

I understood that long ago. Just as my position seems like it should be clear too. I'd choose a D4 because it is capable of being an even better jack of all trades and master of a few as well!

I won't be surprised if you would. But then, since you may never take it to places I take my camera, it is logical to assume you may never encounter a variety of situations where it will be nothing but a nuisance.

Possible, who knows? That doesn't change the fact that it's more versatile on the whole though.

For your needs which are obviously limited. It would necessitate another camera to complement to address my needs.

About your inability to use NEX system for action/sports.

Where in this thread did I ever make such an argument?

You argued against it. See the same link (above).

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EinsteinsGhost
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Re: Sensor Size & Versatility
In reply to 69chevy, Apr 4, 2013

69chevy wrote:

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

Correct, we ARE talking about versatility. And if I haven't made it clear in nearly half dozen posts, let me try again: my pick would be a NEX-6 today, simply because it is capable of being the Jack of All Trades but master of none.

But it is not the jack of all trades. I think it is the master of some.

All trades would include: Sports, wildlife, action, portrait, landscape, snapshots, and weddings: all ranging from terrible, mixed source lighting, to well lit studio shots.

IMHO a full frame DSLR is better at 99% of these trades.

Nope. If I had a FF DSLR, too many occasions would demand that I also carry a smaller one.

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EinsteinsGhost
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Re: Sensor Size & Versatility
In reply to Jorginho, Apr 4, 2013

Jorginho wrote:

See my post below. How is that worse than a NEX6? A few good shots or even a series of AF tracking does not prove a thing when it comes to consitency.

What it can't do? This for instance:

39 shots burst mode with AF tracking D4

It can fit in my pockets when I want to. A D4 would be a nuisance for most occasions. For that matter, do you have one? Why not? It can be your one camera solution. No?

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Re: Sensor Size & Versatility
In reply to Biggs23, Apr 4, 2013

Biggs23 wrote:

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

Jorginho wrote:

I have m43 cams (G1, GH2 and EPl5). To me, they are better balanced than the NEX6. Especially the lens choice and the lens size. Yes, sure...sporters jumping up and down in an arena and seagulls gliding by. Look at my gallery, they are there (sport not, not interested but it is all the same). NEX6 is pretty bad in AF tracking inspite of PDAF.  Panasonic Gh3 is better. But you won't catch me saying they xan do it all. Nikon D4 can do it all for instance.

As demonstrated to you, NEX-system is flexible enough to match DSLR/DSLT performance if the photographer chooses to.

No, it has not been demonstrated.

I would LOVE to give you an in-person demonstration, so you don't sound as clueless as you do. So, I extend you an open invitation to it, if you're in Dallas area. And until then, may I ask what exactly would meet your "criteria" that previously posted samples didn't?

You can sit here and parrot that it cannot, but proof is in the pudding, some of it already delivered to you.

THAT'S the 'proof' you're providing?!

And your eyes skipped it?

BTW, no, D4 isn't even close to defining versatility to me.

Why? Because it's a jack of all trades and a master of a few as well? Wasn't that YOUR criteria for 'versatile'?

It ain't Jack of all trades.

There were pictures made of sports, birds in flight etc with Manual focussed camera's. But it would be quite a stretch to say the cam can do it just like any other cam. Mirrorless camera's are getting better and better, but currently they cannot do it all.

Like what?

Like top tier focus tracking, like high quality native glass from 14mm to 200mm at f/2.8, like quality ergonomics, like a 100% optical viewfinder, like... so many things. Whereas the only disadvantage that something like a D4 has is size/weight/cost, only the latter of which is really is issue for any normal adult.

Aah, native glass. Why exactly should a camera be not versatile enough to use just about any glass out there?

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Re: Sensor Size & Versatility
In reply to Erick L, Apr 4, 2013

Erick L wrote:

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

Erick L wrote:

Versatility is not a function of sensor size.

What is? Let us talk about that specifically, if you want to skip sensor size as playing any role.

The whole system is. There's nothing inherent to sensor size that makes it versatile. Canikon aren't more versatile because they have FF but because they have the largest selection of everything. Sony also has FF, yet the F mount is more versatile, even if Nikon only had APS cameras.

Who exactly buys the whole system?

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Re: Sensor Size & Versatility
In reply to Sovern, Apr 4, 2013

Sovern wrote:

Jorginho wrote:

P&S do not come close in IQ to a NEX6. Also, the lenses have much more versatility. RX1 has better IQ, but that sets you back 2700 euro and it is stil not as versatile.

It might not be as versatile but you're still lugging around lenses. Personally I'd rather just lug around a FF body and those lenses as 8LB's to me is nothing.

Versatility 101: You can choose to lug around lenses. You may choose not to. Just because you have interchangeability that you're being forced into it.

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Re: Sensor Size & Versatility
In reply to Lee Jay, Apr 4, 2013

ljfinger wrote:

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

Continued discussion from: Is Full frame still the most versatile?

ljfinger wrote:

Not much...like I said, I use a small waist pack, and that includes a 70-200/2.8, a 24-105, a 15mm fisheye and a 35/1.4.

More than 8 lb of gear, even if held by a thin string does not describe my idea of small and light.

Well, maybe you should support it by something other than a thin string, and possibly hit the gym a bit.  8 pounds is nothing to wear unless you are disabled.

I don't buy photography gear as a substitute for gym.

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Where does one get that bag? Link? Re: Sensor Size & Versatility
In reply to Lee Jay, Apr 4, 2013

ljfinger wrote:

Mjankor wrote:

How does you usually carry your gear? I take it the bag manages to hold 3 lenses and you carry the camera on a strap?

The bag holds everything with easy access since it's around my waist right in front of me and top loading.

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Lee Jay
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That bag looks interesting.

Do you have a link to the manufacturer's website or a link to a retailer?

Thanks.

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Re: Sensor Size & Versatility
In reply to Biggs23, Apr 4, 2013

Biggs23 wrote:

FrankS009 wrote:

Ouch! Eight pounds is not insignificant for anyone, worn or carried.

I guess I'm not 'anyone'. Eight pounds isn't anything to worry about. I carry around more than that every Saturday for 10 or so hours and never once have thought 'man, I wish this weighed less'.

If you are okay carrying 10 lb. What is another 8 lb? To me, that is basically dead weight (not not mention bulk).

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Re: Where does one get that bag? Link? Re: Sensor Size & Versatility
In reply to plevyadophy, Apr 4, 2013

plevyadophy wrote:

ljfinger wrote:

Mjankor wrote:

How does you usually carry your gear? I take it the bag manages to hold 3 lenses and you carry the camera on a strap?

The bag holds everything with easy access since it's around my waist right in front of me and top loading.

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Lee Jay
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That bag looks interesting.

Do you have a link to the manufacturer's website or a link to a retailer?

Thanks.

http://www.thinktankphoto.com/categories/camera-beltpacks/change-up-beltpack.aspx

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Re: Sensor Size & Versatility
In reply to EinsteinsGhost, Apr 4, 2013

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

ljfinger wrote:

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

Continued discussion from: Is Full frame still the most versatile?

ljfinger wrote:

Not much...like I said, I use a small waist pack, and that includes a 70-200/2.8, a 24-105, a 15mm fisheye and a 35/1.4.

More than 8 lb of gear, even if held by a thin string does not describe my idea of small and light.

Well, maybe you should support it by something other than a thin string, and possibly hit the gym a bit.  8 pounds is nothing to wear unless you are disabled.

I don't buy photography gear as a substitute for gym.

Neither do I - it's too light.  I by astro stuff for that (a bit over 100 pounds):

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Re: Sensor Size & Versatility
In reply to Lee Jay, Apr 4, 2013

ljfinger wrote:

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

ljfinger wrote:

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

Continued discussion from: Is Full frame still the most versatile?

ljfinger wrote:

Not much...like I said, I use a small waist pack, and that includes a 70-200/2.8, a 24-105, a 15mm fisheye and a 35/1.4.

More than 8 lb of gear, even if held by a thin string does not describe my idea of small and light.

Well, maybe you should support it by something other than a thin string, and possibly hit the gym a bit.  8 pounds is nothing to wear unless you are disabled.

I don't buy photography gear as a substitute for gym.

Neither do I - it's too light.  I by astro stuff for that (a bit over 100 pounds):

Well, then you didn't really need to go to the gym, or make recommendations for doing so. But hey, if that gear is your idea of slim and trim... I can't really blame you. Society as a whole has a new meaning on the subject.

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