Sensor Size & Versatility

Started Apr 2, 2013 | Discussions
EinsteinsGhost
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Re: Sensor Size & Versatility
In reply to Biggs23, Apr 3, 2013

Biggs23 wrote:

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

Delivering fools gold shouldn't be anybody's priority.

Agreed.

And no, an additional 2 lb won't break the back, for a bit longer, but if you that is your style, don't preach that shedding weight can't be done and hasn't been.

Of course it has! The process has just required many compromises which some people will find acceptable and some will not.

Which is necessary for versatility. An uncompromising position does not yield versatility.

Also... have you found those quotes yet?

Huh?

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EinsteinsGhost
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Re: Sensor Size & Versatility
In reply to Jorginho, Apr 3, 2013

Jorginho wrote:

I have m43 cams (G1, GH2 and EPl5). To me, they are better balanced than the NEX6. Especially the lens choice and the lens size. Yes, sure...sporters jumping up and down in an arena and seagulls gliding by. Look at my gallery, they are there (sport not, not interested but it is all the same). NEX6 is pretty bad in AF tracking inspite of PDAF.  Panasonic Gh3 is better. But you won't catch me saying they xan do it all. Nikon D4 can do it all for instance.

As demonstrated to you, NEX-system is flexible enough to match DSLR/DSLT performance if the photographer chooses to. You can sit here and parrot that it cannot, but proof is in the pudding, some of it already delivered to you.

BTW, no, D4 isn't even close to defining versatility to me.

There were pictures made of sports, birds in flight etc with Manual focussed camera's. But it would be quite a stretch to say the cam can do it just like any other cam. Mirrorless camera's are getting better and better, but currently they cannot do it all.

Like what?

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Jorginho
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Sports and birds in flight with GH2..amazing! EPl5 AF tracking
In reply to Jorginho, Apr 3, 2013

Squash World Championships final. Gh2 with MF lens...You don't need AF for this..;-)

Goose GH2 and 100-300 panny.

Fast bird, heavyly cropped. Not pinsharp ath the edge of the lens. But at least nto just cruising by..

I may add that squash is quite a bit faster than basketball. I know, I have done squash a lot. And those birds are not just seagulls cruising by. They were speedy. But the keeper rate here is 3 out of 10 shots in both cases. May be 4. And it is like this: once it is okey you have 8 out of 10 but the next moment the focus hunts and it is 1 out of 10. Get a DSLR, a good one, and it is easily double that.

I think you are kidding yourself. And no reason to belittle the m43s or the Nikon 1. The 1 is quite a bit better in PDAF than your Sony btw.

Some quite boring shots with EPL5 with CAF tracking...

Yes..with 30-40 km/h it is okey...At 80 km/h it is quite a bit different.

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tko
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how about making the comparision fair?
In reply to EinsteinsGhost, Apr 3, 2013

The 5d and 24-105 does about everything your set of lenses do. Not quite as wide, but much longer. 1.9 lbs + 1.4 lbs = 3.3 lbs.

Once, more, your lenses are F6, F4.2, F2.7 equivalent. And with the Canon you don't even have to change any lenses.

Yes, the Canon is a pound heavier. But is it really a show stopper? Just because you CAN carry a bunch of lenses doesn't mean you have to. That's a FF fallacy dreamed up the M43rds crowd, who love to show huge lenses on FF.

up, I'd walk into dinner with one body and one lenses. Why not?

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

Continued discussion from: Is Full frame still the most versatile?

ljfinger wrote:

Not much...like I said, I use a small waist pack, and that includes a 70-200/2.8, a 24-105, a 15mm fisheye and a 35/1.4.

More than 8 lb of gear, even if held by a thin string does not describe my idea of small and light. OTOH, something like a Sony NEX-6 with 10-18mm f/4 OSS, 20mm f/2.8, 35mm f/1.8 OSS and 50mm f/1.8 OSS offers a far more practical, small and light set of camera and lenses for walk around, about 2 lb. It is something that won't get in the way while stopping for a family dinner on the way either.

It’s marketing. “Pros drive it, and so should you”, is the motto.

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EinsteinsGhost
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Re: Sensor Size & Versatility
In reply to Biggs23, Apr 3, 2013

Biggs23 wrote:

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

Biggs23 wrote:

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

It won't match high end DSLRs in many aspects of photography. But, it can deliver a lot of everything, getting darn close to anything and everything practical.

Agreed, thanks for coming around. A MILC is a great solution for a lot of people, but it's not the most versatile as you admit above. It can't match high end (or many middle of the road dSLR's for that matter) and that makes it less versatile.

Sorry to disappoint you, but you failed to understand. You agree that a zoom lens is picked for its versatility. You certainly don't pick zoom lenses because they are better than primes, in IQ and speed, do you? You pick them for their versatility.

True, although I also pick them because many are equipped with IS and/or SSM type technology that most primes are not.

There might be a few who would pick just one prime for their camera and live with it forever. But most would pick a zoom lens if only one lens were the option. Why? Versatility.

What's your point?

Explaining "versatility".

I would suggest that when you need such focal lengths, you might be better off using crop mode to have a greater optical reach.

Did you not catch the 'cropped to 50%' part?

You can do that with APS-C or smaller sensors too. But, I'm strictly speaking of optical reach (where your metering and composition are also affected).

Of course you can, but 50% of 16MP is only 8MP, whereas 50% of 36MP is 16MP. So...

And 24MP is... or 22MP is... or 20MP is... and so anybody who invests in a 300mm f/2.8 is a fool? Should get 200mm f/2.8 and crop? BTW, I would prefer 300mm f/2.8, but it won't be as versatile as a lens that is a fraction of the size and huge difference in cost. But it really is the size that makes it more useful: it can sit in my sling bag as a constant feature, along with a few others. THAT is versatility.

You clipped my original quote which added that the most versatile solution would be to carry both!

Your choice was: Pick one.

That's not my choice at all lol. I don't have to pick one and have not. I own zoom lenses from 14mm through 200mm at f/2.8 and I own a variety of 1.4 primes. I do not have to choose just one.

So, why do you spend on zoom lenses when you can get better quality and faster speed with primes?

Hint: Versatility.

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EinsteinsGhost
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Re: Sensor Size & Versatility
In reply to Erick L, Apr 3, 2013

Erick L wrote:

Versatility is not a function of sensor size.

What is? Let us talk about that specifically, if you want to skip sensor size as playing any role.

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Jorginho
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Re: Sensor Size & Versatility
In reply to EinsteinsGhost, Apr 3, 2013

See my post below. How is that worse than a NEX6? A few good shots or even a series of AF tracking does not prove a thing when it comes to consitency.

What it can't do? This for instance:

39 shots burst mode with AF tracking D4

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EinsteinsGhost
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Re: how about making the comparision fair?
In reply to tko, Apr 3, 2013

tko wrote:

The 5d and 24-105 does about everything your set of lenses do. Not quite as wide, but much longer. 1.9 lbs + 1.4 lbs = 3.3 lbs.

Once, more, your lenses are F6, F4.2, F2.7 equivalent. And with the Canon you don't even have to change any lenses.

Is changing lenses a nuisance? Is Canon the only one with 24-105mm equivalent lens that will fit only on FF bodies?

Yes, the Canon is a pound heavier. But is it really a show stopper?

The camera body itself is nearly 1.5 lb heavier. Then add lens differences. And bulk can often be a show stopper.

Canon 5DMkIII versus Sony NEX-6 - Size Comparison (Body only)

Just because you CAN carry a bunch of lenses doesn't mean you have to.

Correct. But irrelevant.

That's a FF fallacy dreamed up the M43rds crowd, who love to show huge lenses on FF.

up, I'd walk into dinner with one body and one lenses. Why not?

Yes you can. Heck, you can walk with a Medium format camera for all I care.

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Biggs23
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Re: Sensor Size & Versatility
In reply to EinsteinsGhost, Apr 3, 2013

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

Biggs23 wrote:

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

Delivering fools gold shouldn't be anybody's priority.

Agreed.

And no, an additional 2 lb won't break the back, for a bit longer, but if you that is your style, don't preach that shedding weight can't be done and hasn't been.

Of course it has! The process has just required many compromises which some people will find acceptable and some will not.

Which is necessary for versatility. An uncompromising position does not yield versatility.

Are we talking about personal interactions now or cameras?

Also... have you found those quotes yet?

Huh?

Read my previous posts. You stated that I said something that I did not and I'm asking you to quote where I said those things.

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Biggs23
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Re: Sensor Size & Versatility
In reply to EinsteinsGhost, Apr 3, 2013

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

Jorginho wrote:

I have m43 cams (G1, GH2 and EPl5). To me, they are better balanced than the NEX6. Especially the lens choice and the lens size. Yes, sure...sporters jumping up and down in an arena and seagulls gliding by. Look at my gallery, they are there (sport not, not interested but it is all the same). NEX6 is pretty bad in AF tracking inspite of PDAF.  Panasonic Gh3 is better. But you won't catch me saying they xan do it all. Nikon D4 can do it all for instance.

As demonstrated to you, NEX-system is flexible enough to match DSLR/DSLT performance if the photographer chooses to.

No, it has not been demonstrated.

You can sit here and parrot that it cannot, but proof is in the pudding, some of it already delivered to you.

THAT'S the 'proof' you're providing?!

BTW, no, D4 isn't even close to defining versatility to me.

Why? Because it's a jack of all trades and a master of a few as well? Wasn't that YOUR criteria for 'versatile'?

There were pictures made of sports, birds in flight etc with Manual focussed camera's. But it would be quite a stretch to say the cam can do it just like any other cam. Mirrorless camera's are getting better and better, but currently they cannot do it all.

Like what?

Like top tier focus tracking, like high quality native glass from 14mm to 200mm at f/2.8, like quality ergonomics, like a 100% optical viewfinder, like... so many things. Whereas the only disadvantage that something like a D4 has is size/weight/cost, only the latter of which is really is issue for any normal adult.

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Sovern
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Re: Sensor Size & Versatility
In reply to EinsteinsGhost, Apr 3, 2013

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

Continued discussion from: Is Full frame still the most versatile?

ljfinger wrote:

Not much...like I said, I use a small waist pack, and that includes a 70-200/2.8, a 24-105, a 15mm fisheye and a 35/1.4.

More than 8 lb of gear, even if held by a thin string does not describe my idea of small and light. OTOH, something like a Sony NEX-6 with 10-18mm f/4 OSS, 20mm f/2.8, 35mm f/1.8 OSS and 50mm f/1.8 OSS offers a far more practical, small and light set of camera and lenses for walk around, about 2 lb. It is something that won't get in the way while stopping for a family dinner on the way either.

It’s marketing. “Pros drive it, and so should you”, is the motto.

Olliess wrote:

No, it really just says "Taurus" on the shell. It has nothing to do with any Taurus you can buy at the dealer.  I don't understand what RWD has to do with it, though.

With that mindset instead of carrying around that Sony body and all of those prime lenses why not just get a P&S or Canon G1X?

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neil holmes
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Re: Sensor Size & Versatility
In reply to EinsteinsGhost, Apr 3, 2013

Hi
              To ME the most versatile is the one that can do the most for the
              individual concerned and that will vary greatly from person to person.

Each size has its pluses and minuses....leaving aside larger formats
              (though I would still like to try digital with my Polaroid 600SE)..

FF    I want FF mirrorless interchangeable lens (used film for many
                    many years).   Pluses.... all things being equal IQ and can have
                    DOF advantages* (not a big one for me).   Minuses....larger (a
                    BIG minus for me in terms of versatitlity), cost and weight.

Below FF, Dslrs have only a small size advantage (my Pentax Kx is one
               of the smallest Dslrs but is still big enough to not be much different
               in terms of dimensions....though considerably lighter)...lenses I use are
               all FF ones so no difference there.

Mirrorless is what SHOULD give the size advantages in the
              CAMERA and the sensor size is what gives the LENS size advantages...and
               FF mirrorless when it comes is going to be great.

I am an average photgrapher but I DO shoot sports and concerts with
               apsc dslrs (and a lot of bands and newspapers have used my pics as has
               a national sporting type paper).  I use a 300 2.8 and other lenses for
               sport and shorter primes and zooms for concerts.

A 300 2.8 can be heavy to lug around for hours and if I did not get a
               photo pass for concerts, I would mostly not be able to take my dslr camera...

My latest "toy" is a Pentax Q...the IQ is ok, it is ok at highish ISO,
               the kit zoom is good and small adapted lenses give tremendous "reach" at
               higher shutter speeds than I could get with other formats....I can take
               it far more places than I could CURRENT FF or apsc dslrs, a LOT lighter
               (I can have a "300mm 1.2" in my pocket), traveling is a lot easier,
               concerts from the crowd (no pass) are possible in many cases, sporting
               events from the crowd are much more likely (especially when there is a
               physical length restriction)....

So, to ME, a smaller size with adequate IQ is MUCH more versatile than
               larger with better IQ and a slight narrowing of DOF.

I will use many formats, but smaller can be with me a LOT more often.

Having said all that, having a set of lenses I can use on all formats is
               FAR more versatile than several cameras with lenses only useable on one.
               Ok,so I guess that is a further plus for smaller MIRRORLESS as they can adapt
               more.

In short, the smallest useable, most adaptable mirrorless is the most versatile to ME.

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Jorginho
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Re: Sensor Size & Versatility
In reply to Sovern, Apr 3, 2013

P&S do not come close in IQ to a NEX6. Also, the lenses have much more versatility. RX1 has better IQ, but that sets you back 2700 euro and it is stil not as versatile.

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Lee Jay
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Re: Sensor Size & Versatility
In reply to EinsteinsGhost, Apr 3, 2013

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

Continued discussion from: Is Full frame still the most versatile?

ljfinger wrote:

Not much...like I said, I use a small waist pack, and that includes a 70-200/2.8, a 24-105, a 15mm fisheye and a 35/1.4.

More than 8 lb of gear, even if held by a thin string does not describe my idea of small and light.

Well, maybe you should support it by something other than a thin string, and possibly hit the gym a bit.  8 pounds is nothing to wear unless you are disabled.

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Martin.au
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Re: Sensor Size & Versatility
In reply to Lee Jay, Apr 3, 2013

ljfinger wrote:

EinsteinsGhost wrote:

Continued discussion from: Is Full frame still the most versatile?

ljfinger wrote:

Not much...like I said, I use a small waist pack, and that includes a 70-200/2.8, a 24-105, a 15mm fisheye and a 35/1.4.

More than 8 lb of gear, even if held by a thin string does not describe my idea of small and light.

Well, maybe you should support it by something other than a thin string, and possibly hit the gym a bit.  8 pounds is nothing to wear unless you are disabled.

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Lee Jay
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How does you usually carry your gear? I take it the bag manages to hold 3 lenses and you carry the camera on a strap?

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FrankS009
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Re: Sensor Size & Versatility
In reply to Lee Jay, Apr 3, 2013

Ouch! Eight pounds is not insignificant for anyone, worn or carried.

F.

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Lee Jay
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Re: Sensor Size & Versatility
In reply to Martin.au, Apr 3, 2013

Mjankor wrote:

How does you usually carry your gear? I take it the bag manages to hold 3 lenses and you carry the camera on a strap?

The bag holds everything with easy access since it's around my waist right in front of me and top loading.

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Lee Jay
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Re: Sensor Size & Versatility
In reply to FrankS009, Apr 3, 2013

FrankS009 wrote:

Ouch! Eight pounds is not insignificant for anyone, worn or carried.

Are you kidding?  My clothes weigh that!  I've had to carry my 30 pound daughter around while she was asleep, and she isn't wearable.  I've gone backbacking with 60 pounds on my back, and that was half my body weight at the time.  My 9-year-old's school backpack weighs around 12 pounds and he doesn't complain about it, and he's only 50 pounds and 4 feet tall.

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Josh152
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Re: Sensor Size & Versatility
In reply to Lee Jay, Apr 3, 2013

ljfinger wrote:

FrankS009 wrote:

Ouch! Eight pounds is not insignificant for anyone, worn or carried.

Are you kidding?  My clothes weigh that!  I've had to carry my 30 pound daughter around while she was asleep, and she isn't wearable.  I've gone backbacking with 60 pounds on my back, and that was half my body weight at the time.  My 9-year-old's school backpack weighs around 12 pounds and he doesn't complain about it, and he's only 50 pounds and 4 feet tall.

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Lee Jay
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Exactly!

When I was in high school my back pack easily weighed at least 30 pounds.  I carried at least 50 pounds of papers in a shoulder bag up and down hills and for at least 2-3 miles, (I don't remember exactly to total amount of walking it was) when I had a paper route in my early teens.   If you are an able bodied adult and struggle with carrying 8 pounds of camera gear in/with a purpose designed bag/waist pack/strap you need several trips to a weight room not a lighter camera system.

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neil holmes
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Re: Sensor Size & Versatility
In reply to Josh152, Apr 3, 2013

Hi

My take on that is that if you are specifically going out to take photos, than 8 pounds is not much.   Also, it is more of a size thing to me.    On the other hand if you want to take a camera and some lenses with you "just in case", then 8 pounds all day can be a LOT.

I have much more than a spare 8 pounds built in ..... while I am happy to carry much more than that IF I have something specific (like a 300 2.8 at sports with other lenses) and walk a couple of miles with it  and use it for hours as well, at other (not planned) times I do not, but a smaller system with the same reach, I will take anywhere often....and when not doing that will have a point and shoot in a pocket.

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