DP2M unsuitable for non-caucasians

Started Apr 2, 2013 | Discussions
Kendall Helmstetter Gelner
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Re: exaggerated thread title for one magnified photo fragment
In reply to Dovey, Apr 2, 2013

Can we see a similar shot with the RX-1 also to compare?

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RussellInCincinnati
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would be great to post RX-1 version of same scene
In reply to Kendall Helmstetter Gelner, Apr 2, 2013

Am also interested in the RX-1 version of the scene. You'd have something firmer to discuss, if you can show us a significantly different and better rendering of the same tiny picture fragment (i.e. bluish shadow parts of scene), taken with a different camera at the same time and the same ISO.

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larryj
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Hog Wash!
In reply to Dovey, Apr 2, 2013

Hello Dovey:

I am a non-Caucasian, as are my children and some of my grand-children and I have taken a hundreds of photographs of my family and friends of various ethnic backgrounds with the SD1M and never seen anything remotely similar to what you are showing.  I do not think the DP2M would respond differently to skin tones.  Below is just one example of a candid photo of my daughter, and I hope this discussion can end here!

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SigmaChrome
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Re: Hog Wash!
In reply to larryj, Apr 3, 2013

Thank god for that, Larry!

For a while there I thought there was a Sigma plot to make us all look like the British Royal Family!

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xpatUSA
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Re: Hog Wash!
In reply to SigmaChrome, Apr 3, 2013

It has been said many times on this forum that SPP's saturation and sharpening is a bit more than neutral for Merrill files, so perhaps there is opportunity for improvement in that regard?

For my SD10 -0.3 saturation and -0.7 sharpness takes the bite out the standard image (all zeros) render for passing on to one's favorite editor.

My understanding is that some versions of SPP sharpen Merrill images quite excessively. Not sure how SPP later that 5.1 does in thar regard.

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BobNL
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Re: DP2M unsuitable for non-caucasians
In reply to Dovey, Apr 3, 2013

Playing around with the Noise reduction settings might help the skin tones considerably. The White Balance might be a bit off too. Have a look at http://x3magazine.com/2013/03/09/smoother-portraits/ to see what a bit of change to the NR settings can do.

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Johan Borg
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Re: Hog Wash!
In reply to larryj, Apr 3, 2013

larryj wrote:

I do not think the DP2M would respond differently to skin tones.

I only have the DP2M (from this generation, it's my 4th Foveon) but I think there may be a difference between them, if nothing else in SPP processing. DP2M has quite clean shadows, but it seems like the price to pay is lower color saturation in darker areas, so reducing Chroma NR is a good advice from BobNL above.

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itairom
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Re: DP2M unsuitable for non-caucasians
In reply to Dovey, Apr 3, 2013

I've found SPP's defaults to be very aggressive for skin tones in general, no matter what tone or shade. Try playing around with the sharpening, noise reduction, white balance etc. Even with that, I've had to frequently apply negative clarity once I get images into Lightroom because there is just too much contrast and detail at times. That said, I've found you can get some pretty nice skin tones out of the DP Merrills if you put some care into how you process the files. The transitions between various tones can actually be quite beautiful. It definitely does take some more care than I've had to apply with my bayer-sensored cameras, but the results can be nice.

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Hornbrille
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You don't want me to post images of my mothers legs...
In reply to Dovey, Apr 3, 2013

... taken with a DP Merrill camera! It's just ridiculous and the solution to your problem is simple: don't shoot your mother's legs (and don't post them on the internet). Even your daughter would complain.

Uwe 8-)

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Oliver_B
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Re: You don't want me to post images of my mothers legs...
In reply to Hornbrille, Apr 3, 2013

Hornbrille wrote:

... taken with a DP Merrill camera! It's just ridiculous and the solution to your problem is simple: don't shoot your mother's legs (and don't post them on the internet). Even your daughter would complain

And then there's the elephant in the room – faces! I have the DP3 for less than a week and I am already afraid to shoot faces older than 36 months. Sigma is clearly (sic!) plotting to push the world into chaos by brutally opening our eyes to our own reality.

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Richard Franiec
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Re: Another conspiracy theory...
In reply to Dovey, Apr 3, 2013
No text.
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Richard Franiec
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Re: Another conspiracy theory...
In reply to Dovey, Apr 3, 2013

The scene has difficult lighting. Portion of the leg in question is in the shadow, most likely severely underexposed if the averaging exposure was used. Such conditions don't do Foveon any favors as per earlier samples and discussions. It would be interesting to see the same image taken with Bayer sensor for comparison.

Richard

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Rudi
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Re: DP2M unsuitable for non-caucasians
In reply to Dovey, Apr 3, 2013

can you post the original leg ?

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Mk7
Mk7
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The OP may have a point...
In reply to Rudi, Apr 9, 2013

I wouldn't go so far to say it's "unsuitable".  I will say that under a couple of specific circumstances, I've gotten weird color spots from the Foveon sensor.  For example, on a DP2 portrait of a medium-dark brown-skinned person, with low angle sunset side lighting and a pop of fill flash.  There were a couple of spots on the facial skin that were slightly irritated or dry.  The small patches of skin were ever so slightly reddish-brown to the human eye, on close inspection.  But in the image, under the condition outlined above, the small spots were orange-ish in color. This happened in the same spots on repeated shots.  I haven't done many portraits, but I do think the "flaw" is due to the nature of the sensor.

Have any Caucasians out there had the same result? Who knows if it would be visible if, for example, the lighting hadn't been mixed (the subject was about 5 ft from the soft flash).  Most likely a much rarer phenomenon than Fuji orbs, anyway. 

I can't post the pic (privacy).  Even though the portrait subject is very attractive, the crop of the area in question (typical Foveon detail) isn't the most attractive, so you'll just have to take my word for it. Should I do more experimentation?

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victorgv
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Re: The OP may have a point...
In reply to Mk7, Apr 9, 2013

In old times (very old) some doctors used cameras for diagnosis . Camera would accentuate differences in skinn color which  human eye could not differentiate. If i am not mistaken first time it happened when photographer saw spots on the portret of a person and could not figure out were they came from. And couple of weeks later person whose portret it was died from smallpox....

Mk7 wrote:

I wouldn't go so far to say it's "unsuitable".  I will say that under a couple of specific circumstances, I've gotten weird color spots from the Foveon sensor.  For example, on a DP2 portrait of a medium-dark brown-skinned person, with low angle sunset side lighting and a pop of fill flash.  There were a couple of spots on the facial skin that were slightly irritated or dry.  The small patches of skin were ever so slightly reddish-brown to the human eye, on close inspection.  But in the image, under the condition outlined above, the small spots were orange-ish in color. This happened in the same spots on repeated shots.  I haven't done many portraits, but I do think the "flaw" is due to the nature of the sensor.

Have any Caucasians out there had the same result? Who knows if it would be visible if, for example, the lighting hadn't been mixed (the subject was about 5 ft from the soft flash).  Most likely a much rarer phenomenon than Fuji orbs, anyway. 

I can't post the pic (privacy).  Even though the portrait subject is very attractive, the crop of the area in question (typical Foveon detail) isn't the most attractive, so you'll just have to take my word for it. Should I do more experimentation?

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