Is an ultrawide DPM possible?

Started Mar 30, 2013 | Discussions
MoreorLess
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Is an ultrawide DPM possible?
Mar 30, 2013

Given that Sigma's sensor seems so well suited for landscape/architecture I'm wondering is an ultrawide(20mm equivalent or wider) model possible? I thinking mainly about cost and whether the foveon sensor can cope with light coming in at a narrow angle.

Joerg V
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Re: Is an ultrawide DPM possible?
In reply to MoreorLess, Mar 30, 2013

There are very few things that are impossible.

The question remains: are they enough people willing to pay a grand (or more) for such a combination. 20mm is very special... but well, I never thought that something like a DP3M would ever happen, so you never know.

Joerg

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HBowman
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Re: Is an ultrawide DPM possible?
In reply to MoreorLess, Mar 30, 2013

MoreorLess wrote:

Given that Sigma's sensor seems so well suited for landscape/architecture I'm wondering is an ultrawide(20mm equivalent or wider) model possible? I thinking mainly about cost and whether the foveon sensor can cope with light coming in at a narrow angle.

Hello Moreorless,

Actually, for me, this is NOT possible with the actual foveon. First, I not sure that foveon rely on Microlenses to corect the ligh field in the corners of the Merrill sensor. I'm pretty sure that the sensor is "nude" and rely only on the lenses characteristics such as "telecentrism" to sort this problem.

Actually, by seeing were SIGMA/FOVEON is, at a technology level, this is not possible.

They have two choices but those are just my opinion, non expert:

  • They put microlenses on the sensors (I do not think it is that easy with the foveon structure ...)
  • They build "near" MF lens to be sure that light field will cover largely over APS-C and even over FF sensor size. This is what are doing Zeiss, by the way, with the future super lenses who are coming.

Final word is :

Please SIGMA, build us a FF SD in F mount

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vbd70
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Yes, and I hope Sigma will make it...
In reply to MoreorLess, Mar 30, 2013

MoreorLess wrote:

Given that Sigma's sensor seems so well suited for landscape/architecture I'm wondering is an ultrawide(20mm equivalent or wider) model possible? I thinking mainly about cost and whether the foveon sensor can cope with light coming in at a narrow angle.

Creating such a camera is definitely possible. Imagine just for example sake to take a single focal lens, say 12mm, out of the 8-16 that Sigma makes for SA mount, make it f4 (even f5.6 would do, though barely) and you'll have a DPW Merrill (W for wide, obviously) with an 18mm f4 or f5.6 FOV equivalent lens.

For all the naysayers that will start talking about angle of light etc, this is why I used an actual existing lens for the APS Foveon sensor as an example. Such a lens exist and its possible.

I for one would gladly pay another $999 US Sigma-Tax for such a camera, and would then be able to leave home my (large & heavy) D800E with lenses for a good part of my work, and just go out with the 4 Merrill, a tripod, a few filters and... 9034 batteries!!!

Best,

Vieri

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HBowman
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Re: Yes, and I hope Sigma will make it...
In reply to vbd70, Mar 30, 2013

Yes but a f5.6 lens... some expert know this is ok but the mass will not buy it. If it is not 2.8 at least ... even if it is unusable at f2.8 ... they will be very confidential sales.

The DP1m doesn't sell that much compared to the two others.

If I were SIGMA, I would have kept f4 on the DP1m. with a slightly wider focal lens. The DP1x for that matter (and the older) is made in this way.

So yes, closing the diaphragm is a solution too... but commercially void.

And 9432 battery !

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maceoQ
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with tilt/shift!
In reply to HBowman, Mar 30, 2013

HBowman wrote:

The DP1m doesn't sell that much compared to the two others.

I'm not sure. I would love to see a 18-19mm DP1m with tilt/shift lens.
I know at least 4-5 people (me included) who would buy it. (Also for 1500 dollars).
Mostly architects and/or landscape photographers.

Maceo

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vbd70
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Re: Yes, and I hope Sigma will make it...
In reply to HBowman, Mar 30, 2013

HBowman wrote:

Yes but a f5.6 lens... some expert know this is ok but the mass will not buy it. If it is not 2.8 at least ... even if it is unusable at f2.8 ... they will be very confidential sales.

The DP1m doesn't sell that much compared to the two others.

If I were SIGMA, I would have kept f4 on the DP1m. with a slightly wider focal lens. The DP1x for that matter (and the older) is made in this way.

So yes, closing the diaphragm is a solution too... but commercially void.

And 9432 battery !

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They can do it f4 easily. I only used the 8-16mm example to shut up people saying that angle of incidence makes it impossible, that it need special tele-centric designs or whatever. Making such a camera IS possible.

Now, making it 18mm f4 would be great, 20mm or even 21mm f4 would be very good as well. Of course, the lens size will be closer to the DP3M's lens size than that of the DP2M.

About marketing, well, first of all I don't think the DP1M is selling so much less than the other Merrills. While many people gets the DP2M only, there are many people who buy the DP1M & DP3M duo, and there are many people buying all three. There are even people I know who only have the DP1M. If you have Sigma sales numbers proving what you say, please show them and I will shut up

Besides, people buying the DP Merrill series in general aren't a majority anyway; I think Sigma would be wise in expanding the range, because the Merrill concept of hgih-level, high-IQ compact cameras is simply a winner in today's marketplace and Sigma has a very unique leading position here so far. See how Fuji, Nikon, Sony, etc are trying to enter this market? If Sigma is smart and they will develop the Merrill concept, they'll keep owning this segment of the market for a long time. Otherwise, it will be very tough for them to compete with the big guys once Nikon, Sony, Fuji and then Canon, Olympus etc will decide to step in - as they are already doing.

So, IMHO it will be very worth it for Sigma if they produce such a camera - I don't see a problem there. I know many Landscape photographers would be all over such a little WA machine...!

Best,

Vieri

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vbd70
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Re: with tilt/shift!
In reply to maceoQ, Mar 30, 2013

maceoQ wrote:

HBowman wrote:

The DP1m doesn't sell that much compared to the two others.

I'm not sure. I would love to see a 18-19mm DP1m with tilt/shift lens.
I know at least 4-5 people (me included) who would buy it. (Also for 1500 dollars).
Mostly architects and/or landscape photographers.

Maceo

Having T-S would be even better!

Vieri

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HBowman
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Re: with tilt/shift!
In reply to vbd70, Mar 30, 2013

Do not dream too much with exotic lenses

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joaquin100
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Re: Is an ultrawide DPM possible?
In reply to MoreorLess, Mar 30, 2013

MoreorLess wrote:

Given that Sigma's sensor seems so well suited for landscape/architecture I'm wondering is an ultrawide(20mm equivalent or wider) model possible? I thinking mainly about cost and whether the foveon sensor can cope with light coming in at a narrow angle.

Possible it should be. even wider FL.

Cost is something else, unknown here.

Since its a fixed FL, the sensor could be concave to match that specific FL and light would hit straight till the bottom of every pixel.

FF sensor have issues @ edges at WA and concave sensors could address those problems too.

If this is possible , Ricoh could make modules for diff. prime lenses and every Concave Sensor with diff. curvature  to match the specific FL of that prime.

maybe i am totally wrong here.

J.

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vbd70
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Re: Is an ultrawide DPM possible?
In reply to joaquin100, Mar 30, 2013

joaquin100 wrote:

MoreorLess wrote:

Given that Sigma's sensor seems so well suited for landscape/architecture I'm wondering is an ultrawide(20mm equivalent or wider) model possible? I thinking mainly about cost and whether the foveon sensor can cope with light coming in at a narrow angle.

Possible it should be. even wider FL.

Cost is something else, unknown here.

Since its a fixed FL, the sensor could be concave to match that specific FL and light would hit straight till the bottom of every pixel.

FF sensor have issues @ edges at WA and concave sensors could address those problems too.

If this is possible , Ricoh could make modules for diff. prime lenses and every Concave Sensor with diff. curvature  to match the specific FL of that prime.

maybe i am totally wrong here.

J.

Hello J.,

with today's wafer cutting technology, it is impossible to produce a concave sensor. What it is possible, and Leica for instance does it, is to design and produce microlenses to be placed above each light receptor of the sensor, to "straighten" the light path at the edges of the sensor itself and allow light to reach the corners of the sensor. This microlenses can create problems, as they do with the Leica M series, when used coupled with interchangeable lenses; but it should create perfect results in a fixed-lens camera as the DPW Merrill would be.

Best,

Vieri

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travelinbri_74
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Re: Is an ultrawide DPM possible?
In reply to MoreorLess, Mar 30, 2013

Actually, I think they should go for 21-24 equiv (so a 14 or 16 lens), and keep it 2.8.  The trick would be getting it as sharp from corner to corner as the DP2M, as I think the reason people have shied away from the DP1M is because it is not given the same stellar lens reviews as that of the DP2M.  I would be interested in a DPWM, DP2M, and DP3M combo (all combined to cost as much as 1 RX1).

More interesting yet would be a truly excellent mirrorless interchangeable with the same lenses.

-TBri

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MoreorLess
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Could be interesting on an interchangeable lens system.
In reply to maceoQ, Mar 30, 2013

maceoQ wrote:

HBowman wrote:

The DP1m doesn't sell that much compared to the two others.

I'm not sure. I would love to see a 18-19mm DP1m with tilt/shift lens.
I know at least 4-5 people (me included) who would buy it. (Also for 1500 dollars).
Mostly architects and/or landscape photographers.

Maceo

Personally I'v always thought there was potential for an ASPC mirrorless with tilt/shift functions built into the lens mount(potentially retaining AF?) to use FF DSLR lenses without an adapter.

Sigma's actually seem very well suited for that to me since the sensor packs more resolution into a smaller area and they have the 12-24mm lens to use which is ultarwide even on ASPC.

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Kendall Helmstetter Gelner
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Foveon already uses Microlenses
In reply to vbd70, Mar 30, 2013

vbd70 wrote:

with today's wafer cutting technology, it is impossible to produce a concave sensor. What it is possible, and Leica for instance does it, is to design and produce microlenses to be placed above each light receptor of the sensor, to "straighten" the light path at the edges of the sensor itself and allow light to reach the corners of the sensor. This microlenses can create problems, as they do with the Leica M series, when used coupled with interchangeable lenses; but it should create perfect results in a fixed-lens camera as the DPW Merrill would be.

Foveon has been using Microlenses since the SD-10.   Straighter light is very important to the sensor so that is absolutely something they include.

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Kendall Helmstetter Gelner
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What other ultrawides that sharp
In reply to travelinbri_74, Mar 30, 2013

travelinbri_74 wrote:

Actually, I think they should go for 21-24 equiv (so a 14 or 16 lens), and keep it 2.8.  The trick would be getting it as sharp from corner to corner as the DP2M

Is that possible though.  What other ultra-wide angle lenses for any DSLR are that sharp edge to edge?

I think if it were possible for the DP-1M to be sharper edge to edge, it would be.

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vbd70
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Re: Foveon already uses Microlenses
In reply to Kendall Helmstetter Gelner, Mar 30, 2013

Kendall Helmstetter Gelner wrote:

vbd70 wrote:

with today's wafer cutting technology, it is impossible to produce a concave sensor. What it is possible, and Leica for instance does it, is to design and produce microlenses to be placed above each light receptor of the sensor, to "straighten" the light path at the edges of the sensor itself and allow light to reach the corners of the sensor. This microlenses can create problems, as they do with the Leica M series, when used coupled with interchangeable lenses; but it should create perfect results in a fixed-lens camera as the DPW Merrill would be.

Foveon has been using Microlenses since the SD-10.   Straighter light is very important to the sensor so that is absolutely something they include.

I suspected they would, given the nature of Foveon sensors, but hadn't any certainty so I didn't want to say one way or the other. Thank you for pointing this out, Kendall!

Best,

Vieri

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vbd70
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Re: What other ultrawides that sharp
In reply to Kendall Helmstetter Gelner, Mar 30, 2013

Kendall Helmstetter Gelner wrote:

travelinbri_74 wrote:

Actually, I think they should go for 21-24 equiv (so a 14 or 16 lens), and keep it 2.8.  The trick would be getting it as sharp from corner to corner as the DP2M

Is that possible though.  What other ultra-wide angle lenses for any DSLR are that sharp edge to edge?

I think if it were possible for the DP-1M to be sharper edge to edge, it would be.

I assume it is theoretically possible, but we shouldn't forget costs, size, weight constraints at the end of the day, there is a point where lens manufacturers stop and consider a product "good enough" under these constraint, or they would have to change some of the parameters... probably price being the first

Best,

Vieri

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Lin Evans
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Re: Is an ultrawide DPM possible?
In reply to HBowman, Mar 30, 2013

The Foveon sensors have had microlenses for a number of iterations now...

Best regards,

Lin

HBowman wrote:

snip

Hello Moreorless,

Actually, for me, this is NOT possible with the actual foveon. First, I not sure that foveon rely on Microlenses to corect the ligh field in the corners of the Merrill sensor. I'm pretty sure that the sensor is "nude" and rely only on the lenses characteristics such as "telecentrism" to sort this problem.

Actually, by seeing were SIGMA/FOVEON is, at a technology level, this is not possible.

They have two choices but those are just my opinion, non expert:

  • They put microlenses on the sensors (I do not think it is that easy with the foveon structure ...)
  • They build "near" MF lens to be sure that light field will cover largely over APS-C and even over FF sensor size. This is what are doing Zeiss, by the way, with the future super lenses who are coming.

Final word is :

Please SIGMA, build us a FF SD in F mount

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docmaas
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Simple but not easy solution
In reply to MoreorLess, Mar 30, 2013

Adapt a sony nex mount or an m43 mount to the Merrill DP cameras.  Everything would be manual but there would be a huge selection of lenses from which to choose.

Alas the shutter is part of the lens and that makes the conversion very difficult and problematic.

Guess we will have to wait for live view on the SD1 so we can convert canon t/s lenses.

Mike

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Kendall Helmstetter Gelner
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Re: Simple but not easy solution
In reply to docmaas, Mar 31, 2013

docmaas wrote:

Adapt a sony nex mount or an m43 mount to the Merrill DP cameras.  Everything would be manual but there would be a huge selection of lenses from which to choose.

Alas the shutter is part of the lens and that makes the conversion very difficult and problematic.

Guess we will have to wait for live view on the SD1 so we can convert canon t/s lenses.

I almost did that for the SD-1 (Converting a Canon T/S 17mm, I had the lens in hand) but I backed out when I saw the results I was getting with other wide manual lenses.

I should revisit that though as it seemed like use of manual fixes was improved in SPP.  I'm still not sure that Canon T/S lens would be sharp on the SD-1 though theoretically it should be.

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