Just a few comments on the recent forum controversy...

Started Mar 29, 2013 | Discussions
Edward48
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Re: Just a few comments on the recent forum controversy...
In reply to doto41, Mar 30, 2013

doto41 wrote:

I've gone through the many interesting thoughts on this thread, and find myself uncertain. On the one hand, I feel very much at  home here, and post shots which I think the 'Leica style' has influenced even though my connection to Leica gear is only through the 'Leica' supervision of the lens on my Panasonic cameras. I was moved by the warmth of support and the rescue mission many friends here showed when my thread was moved and felt I was coming back home, but on this thread I see many here are not happy with non Leica postings, and maybe I'm hurting their feelings which I would not want to do. I don't think I'll ever own a real Leica, so maybe I should become a less active participant here, enjoying and learning from the many admired photographers and refraining from posting my own shots, or only doing it rarely, I am really a bit confused.

with friendship and appreciation.

Dov, As far as I am concerned you have every right to post images here. Yours aren't 'non Leica postings'. Nor is anyone's with the word Leica stamped on their lens. It's quite different from posting shots from 100% non Leica gear. If you felt that you had to post less often it would be a sad day for this forum.

Straight from one of our moderator's lips:

"Hi Doto41,
Please continue to post in Leica forum confidently."

Can't be clearer than that can it.

Very best
Mike

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l_objectif
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Re: Just a few comments on the recent forum controversy...
In reply to doto41, Mar 30, 2013

doto41 wrote:

I've gone through the many interesting thoughts on this thread, and find myself uncertain. On the one hand, I feel very much at  home here, and post shots which I think the 'Leica style' has influenced even though my connection to Leica gear is only through the 'Leica' supervision of the lens on my Panasonic cameras. I was moved by the warmth of support and the rescue mission many friends here showed when my thread was moved and felt I was coming back home, but on this thread I see many here are not happy with non Leica postings, and maybe I'm hurting their feelings which I would not want to do. I don't think I'll ever own a real Leica, so maybe I should become a less active participant here, enjoying and learning from the many admired photographers and refraining from posting my own shots, or only doing it rarely, I am really a bit confused.

with friendship and appreciation.

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Dov
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Dov, you have contributed to the Leica forum much more than all these people who are raising this as an issue. How many of this good people have really contributed anything to this forum!?

As I said before, it is really ironic that those who never contributed anything to Leica forum are asking for changes! With the kind of changes they are advocating, this forum that they pretend to "love" so much would not be the same!

uch more

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Prosophos
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Dov, Louis, and "Leica Forum" friends....
In reply to l_objectif, Mar 30, 2013

For what it's worth — and as one of the forum "regulars" —  I fully support postings of the sort of images/content we are privileged to see from Dov and other individuals.  Louis is correct, this has never been an issue for those of us who have been long-standing members of this wonderful community.

Unfortunately, I have less time these days to post and comment here (spending much of my free time on my personal blog), but I still participate here when I can and I would hate to see the spirit of this place compromised...

Peter.

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BSweeney
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Re: Just a few comments on the recent forum controversy...
In reply to doto41, Mar 30, 2013

doto41 wrote:

I've gone through the many interesting thoughts on this thread, and find myself uncertain. On the one hand, I feel very much at  home here, and post shots which I think the 'Leica style' has influenced even though my connection to Leica gear is only through the 'Leica' supervision of the lens on my Panasonic cameras. I was moved by the warmth of support and the rescue mission many friends here showed when my thread was moved and felt I was coming back home, but on this thread I see many here are not happy with non Leica postings, and maybe I'm hurting their feelings which I would not want to do. I don't think I'll ever own a real Leica, so maybe I should become a less active participant here, enjoying and learning from the many admired photographers and refraining from posting my own shots, or only doing it rarely, I am really a bit confused.

with friendship and appreciation.

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Dov
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You certainly have as much right to post images taken with a Leica lens on a Panasonic camera as I have to post images taken with a 1937 Sonnar converted to Leica mount on my M9 and M Monochrom.

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jeff hladun
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Re: Just a few comments on the recent forum controversy...
In reply to doto41, Mar 30, 2013

Dov, I think this idea about only allowing "purist" Leica images has been obfuscated by nomenclature. The tradition of this forum has been to allow any image taken with Leica equipment. As such, your Panosonic-Leica lens imagery falls within that definition. I think the issue of transferring your latest post to the Panosonic forum was unfortunate; someone was just a little asleep at the wheel. Anyone posting work related to Leica equipment has the right to do so here. If BSweeney wants to modify yet another lens to work with a Leica body, then I'm all in favour in seeing the fruits of his labour. Somewhere, someone will be interested in this sort of work, and may even attempt copying the effort. More power to us all!

But this thread has pointed out that there are many who don't appreciate the intrusion of non-Leica imagery here, and I am one of them. Much as Nicholas points out, the current ratio of non-Leica picture posts is small, manageable even. What happens if there is a deluge of images and posts having nothing to do with this brand? What defense will there be if Leica posts become just a small percentage of total posts? Will we be able to reverse the direction of a free and unfettered Forum? It is where this Forum could go that I fear, not where it is presently.

This shouldn't be an "Us" versus "Them" type of debate. I think the idea of having one thread - open to both newcomers and regulars - displaying rolling, non-Leica imagery would be just the solution. The same sort of thread BSweeney opened a few weeks ago, and also the one I opened celebrating our 25,000th thread. This is a problem requiring some sort of compromise; I'd like to see a little easing of both sides on this issue.

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John A Clark
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Re: Just a few comments on the recent forum controversy...
In reply to jeff hladun, Mar 31, 2013

Absolutely agree on all points

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Daniel74
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Re: Just a few comments on the recent forum controversy...
In reply to Nich0las, Mar 31, 2013

Due to financial pressures I have decided to part with my Leica-M and R lenses and after that I will have no excuse to post here at all. So this is just to say that I have really appreciated the support and the feedback I received here as well as many inspirational images and quality discussion and perhaps see some of you guys in the genre fora!

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BSweeney
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Re: Just a few comments on the recent forum controversy...
In reply to Daniel74, Mar 31, 2013

That is a real shame. You have posted many beautiful images, taken with some exotic glass- many of which can be used ON a Leica camera.

That is what a "purist" will lose out on, perspective. And a photographer without perspective is just a gearhead.

So where will you be posting?

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meagre offerings
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Re: Just a few comments on the recent forum controversy...
In reply to l_objectif, Mar 31, 2013

doto41 wrote:

I've gone through the many interesting thoughts on this thread, and find myself uncertain. On the one hand, I feel very much at  home here, and post shots which I think the 'Leica style' has influenced even though my connection to Leica gear is only through the 'Leica' supervision of the lens on my Panasonic cameras. I was moved by the warmth of support and the rescue mission many friends here showed when my thread was moved and felt I was coming back home, but on this thread I see many here are not happy with non Leica postings, and maybe I'm hurting their feelings which I would not want to do. I don't think I'll ever own a real Leica, so maybe I should become a less active participant here, enjoying and learning from the many admired photographers and refraining from posting my own shots, or only doing it rarely, I am really a bit confused.

with friendship and appreciation.

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Dov
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Dov, you have contributed to the Leica forum much more than all these people who are raising this as an issue. How many of this good people have really contributed anything to this forum!?

As I said before, it is really ironic that those who never contributed anything to Leica forum are asking for changes! With the kind of changes they are advocating, this forum that they pretend to "love" so much would not be the same!

uch more

absolutely spot on my French friend, I have to admit, that in these few short months that I have been posting my meagre offerings (both Nikon & red dot) I have not seen much, if any, participation, image posting or c&c from these people.

meagre offerings, or stunning images (Hugues, Louis, peter, Olivier and many more), these people are active and keep this forum what it is, they don't just look and then disappear, they have input and without their input, there would be nothing for the viewer to view.

I am not knocking anyone who feels that they can only be a forum voyeur, but I think the forum as it currently exists, would die pretty quickly if it was only occupied by voyeurs.

pc

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panos_m
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Wealthy photographers:
In reply to Toccata47, Mar 31, 2013

Toccata47 wrote:

The sad fact of photography and wealth is that wealthy photographers have historically been responsible for 0.0% of great photography. I challenge posters to prove otherwise.

I know two:

  • Henri Cartier-Bresson
  • Jacques Henri Lartigue
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Panagiotis

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Toccata47
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1/2, perhaps
In reply to panos_m, Mar 31, 2013

panos_m wrote:

Toccata47 wrote:

The sad fact of photography and wealth is that wealthy photographers have historically been responsible for 0.0% of great photography. I challenge posters to prove otherwise.

I know two:

  • Henri Cartier-Bresson
  • Jacques Henri Lartigue
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Panagiotis

Bresson was famously poor.

Lartigue's merit could well be debated and to my mind he leans more toward an early "model mayhem" than an Avendon. An early photographer with access to people other people wanted to look at, at the time. Lasting value or meaningful contribution to photography? No, I don't think so. But to each his own.

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RaajS
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Re: Dov, Louis, and "Leica Forum" friends....
In reply to Prosophos, Mar 31, 2013

Prosophos wrote:

For what it's worth — and as one of the forum "regulars" —  I fully support postings of the sort of images/content we are privileged to see from Dov and other individuals.  Louis is correct, this has never been an issue for those of us who have been long-standing members of this wonderful community.

Unfortunately, I have less time these days to post and comment here (spending much of my free time on my personal blog), but I still participate here when I can and I would hate to see the spirit of this place compromised...

Peter.

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I agree wholeheartedly with you, Peter.

Not to be offensive to anyone, but I'm puzzled - what problem are we trying to solve?  It's not like the forum is inundated with "non-Leica" images (whatever that means).   The spirit of the forum has always been inclusive and if that is to change, that should be driven only if there is a larger problem to be solved.  I, like Louis, find it interesting that many of the folks pushing for change are folks who haven't contributed to the community - these individuals pop up when threads like this one surface and have strong opinions on how this community should be governedwithoutbeing a part of the community!  It's like going to someone's home for dinner and rearranging their furniture because the it's not to ones liking.

Dov, Daniel, as far as I am concerned, you guys not posting images here lessens the forum.   I too do not have much time for the forum anymore but do pop in from time to time and enjoy the photographs posted here.   I don't see any reason to enact draconian policy changes.  And I haven't seen any logically defensible arguments on why there should be change to solve a non-existent problem.

cheers,

-raaj

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panos_m
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Re: 1/2, perhaps
In reply to Toccata47, Mar 31, 2013

Toccata47 wrote:

panos_m wrote:

Toccata47 wrote:

The sad fact of photography and wealth is that wealthy photographers have historically been responsible for 0.0% of great photography. I challenge posters to prove otherwise.

I know two:

  • Henri Cartier-Bresson
  • Jacques Henri Lartigue
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Panagiotis

Bresson was famously poor.

Bresson's father had a company named Cartier-Bresson Textile. He was very wealthy. There is plenty of information in the internet about this.

Lartigue's merit could well be debated and to my mind he leans more toward an early "model mayhem" than an Avendon. An early photographer with access to people other people wanted to look at, at the time. Lasting value or meaningful contribution to photography? No, I don't think so. But to each his own.

Lartigue was a natural born photography talent. He is mentioned in detail in every class about the history of photography I am aware off. At least where I live. So I consider his contribution meaningful and of a lasting value.

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Panagiotis

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meagre offerings
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Re: Just a few comments on the recent forum controversy...
In reply to BSweeney, Mar 31, 2013

BSweeney wrote:

doto41 wrote:

I've gone through the many interesting thoughts on this thread, and find myself uncertain. On the one hand, I feel very much at  home here, and post shots which I think the 'Leica style' has influenced even though my connection to Leica gear is only through the 'Leica' supervision of the lens on my Panasonic cameras. I was moved by the warmth of support and the rescue mission many friends here showed when my thread was moved and felt I was coming back home, but on this thread I see many here are not happy with non Leica postings, and maybe I'm hurting their feelings which I would not want to do. I don't think I'll ever own a real Leica, so maybe I should become a less active participant here, enjoying and learning from the many admired photographers and refraining from posting my own shots, or only doing it rarely, I am really a bit confused.

with friendship and appreciation.

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Dov
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You certainly have as much right to post images taken with a Leica lens on a Panasonic camera as I have to post images taken with a 1937 Sonnar converted to Leica mount on my M9 and M Monochrom.

not according to the members who dont contribute to this forum, he doesnt!!!!

but personally, i agree with you.

pc

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Pedagydusz
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Re: Wealthy photographers: and more
In reply to panos_m, Mar 31, 2013

Patrick Lichfield, portraitist.

This without searching my memory at all. I am sure there are others.

BTW, I am not wealth myself, at all. I just detest blanket statements that are difficult to prove or disprove, and rely on the lack of handy informed responses to make a point.

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meagre offerings
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Re: Wealthy photographers: and more
In reply to Pedagydusz, Mar 31, 2013

Pedagydusz wrote:

Patrick Lichfield, portraitist.

This without searching my memory at all. I am sure there are others.

BTW, I am not wealth myself, at all. I just detest blanket statements that are difficult to prove or disprove, and rely on the lack of handy informed responses to make a point.

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im not wealthy, and you dont need to research that!!!!

pc

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Michael Everett
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What Leica 35 can I afford.
In reply to meagre offerings, Mar 31, 2013

OK I want to stay on this forum and I am sensitive to the question of all these non-Leica people.  I shoot mostly 35mm on my Nex 7, as I like the 50 FL, and I can't afford a latest Summicron or Summilux.  So what about the older Leica 35's; which are affordable and which are worth it?

I am obviously looking for a way to stay on this forum.  It's too nice a place and too artistically inspiring to have to leave or only lurk.

Michael

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Stujomo
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Re: What Leica 35 can I afford.
In reply to Michael Everett, Mar 31, 2013

35mm 2.8 Leica summaron. Maybe a Voitlander 35mm 1.4 nokton it's an M mount lens. There are a few more but I can't remember all the models off hand.

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meagre offerings
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Re: What Leica 35 can I afford.
In reply to Michael Everett, Mar 31, 2013

Michael Everett wrote:

OK I want to stay on this forum and I am sensitive to the question of all these non-Leica people.  I shoot mostly 35mm on my Nex 7, as I like the 50 FL, and I can't afford a latest Summicron or Summilux.  So what about the older Leica 35's; which are affordable and which are worth it?

I am obviously looking for a way to stay on this forum.  It's too nice a place and too artistically inspiring to have to leave or only lurk.

Michael

no michael, you shouldnt have to go out and buy a camera just so you can stay on this forum, this is all getting out of hand. yes i know that im pretty much the new boy on the block, but at least i do try to contribute to the forum, even if my images are not always that good.

the people who are spooking you, on the whole, contribute sod all to this forum, at least nothing since i have been on here, so dont let them spoil the forum by trying to force out people who may not for whatever reason, own a leica, but want to post decent images.

i will continue to post images, regardless of what these people think, whether caputed on my leica  d-lux 4 or my nikon D200, or even my wifes panny fz45 (with leica lens).

the point that all these non contributors miss, is that even though my images may not be up there with the best of what this forum offers, i take my images with as much hope, love and luck as the best take theirs.

if one day louis, peter, hugues, olivier etc all turn round to me and say, `paul, your showing the forum up with your images`, i will gladly bow out and just become a leica forum voyeur, until that day, these high and mighty non contributors will definately not bully me off this forum, so dont let them do it to you michael!!!!

pc

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RaajS
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Re: What Leica 35 can I afford.
In reply to meagre offerings, Apr 1, 2013

nikonFboy wrote:

Michael Everett wrote:

OK I want to stay on this forum and I am sensitive to the question of all these non-Leica people.  I shoot mostly 35mm on my Nex 7, as I like the 50 FL, and I can't afford a latest Summicron or Summilux.  So what about the older Leica 35's; which are affordable and which are worth it?

I am obviously looking for a way to stay on this forum.  It's too nice a place and too artistically inspiring to have to leave or only lurk.

Michael

no michael, you shouldnt have to go out and buy a camera just so you can stay on this forum, this is all getting out of hand.

Totally agree.

yes i know that im pretty much the new boy on the block, but at least i do try to contribute to the forum, even if my images are not always that good.

as far as I am concerned, you're a valued member of the community, Paul.

the people who are spooking you, on the whole, contribute sod all to this forum, at least nothing since i have been on here, so dont let them spoil the forum by trying to force out people who may not for whatever reason, own a leica, but want to post decent images.

Sod all is right.  It's best to ignore this peanut gallery.

i will continue to post images, regardless of what these people think, whether caputed on my leica  d-lux 4 or my nikon D200, or even my wifes panny fz45 (with leica lens).

Good for you.  Glad tip hear it, Paul, and look forward to the images.

the point that all these non contributors miss, is that even though my images may not be up there with the best of what this forum offers, i take my images with as much hope, love and luck as the best take theirs.

if one day louis, peter, hugues, olivier etc all turn round to me and say, `paul, your showing the forum up with your images`, i will gladly bow out and just become a leica forum voyeur, until that day, these high and mighty non contributors will definately not bully me off this forum, so dont let them do it to you michael!!!!

I doubt that's going to happen.

pc

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