Just a few comments on the recent forum controversy...

Started Mar 29, 2013 | Discussions
Nich0las
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Just a few comments on the recent forum controversy...
Mar 29, 2013

There are so many different forums on DPR - from Open Talk to Street or Landscape Photography and then all the different manufacturers. One thing that always appealed to me about the Leica forum when I used to be a regular in the Canon forum was the civility of contributors and very high quality of images.

The quality of images is a combination of factors - one being the Leica look that comes from Leica camera bodies but probably more the lenses, the second from the photographers that use them. Photographers who use Leica hardware tend to have gone through GAS and love the quality and simplicity afforded by Leica gear. We tend to be more experienced overall photography-wise, less concerned with gear and more concerned on the images produced.

There are many DPR members that come here either openly or stay in the shadows and appreciate both of those things - the civility of members and quality of images. Once you start accepting posts from other manufacturers you do start to lose a little of the essence of the Leica forum and it starts to become more of an 'Open/General' forum. You also then don't get the consistency of the 'Leica look' and also from the Leica forum members - Louis, Peter, Gianluca, David, Hugues, Choi, Misha etc... I would also say that overall the quality of images posted here is higher than that visible in other forums because of all the above factors and the years of experience behind many of the forums regular members.

In saying that I don't mind occasionally having guests post images from non-Leica equipment in order to get feedback or constructive criticism from Leica forum members - because by and large instead of focusing on the negative aspects of an image overall the comments do tend to help a photographer improve composition/processing etc... - I myself am very thankful for the feedback that I've received here.

The hard part for the mods though is where do you draw the line? If we allow 2 posts from other hardware for feedback/constructive criticism one day, then the next day you have 10 you begin to lose the essence of the Leica forum I feel, so it is easier to just say keep it Leica related and if you want to give feedback or want to seek feedback visit another forum...

All of us here share a common love for photography but also appreciate the philosophy behind Leica cameras and lenses - and it is those two things that make the forum unique.

Just my $0.02.

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Fred Holzapfel
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Re: Just a few comments on the recent forum controversy...
In reply to Nich0las, Mar 29, 2013

NichOlas,  Excellent points.   The more it is kept to Leica Glass and / or full Leica gear the more true to the forum.   Those occational none Lecia photographs may seem OK, but they do reduce the fourm.   Keep it more "Pure".    I'd have no problem is the moderators kept out non-Leica related topics and photograhs.

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Daedalus2000
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Re: Just a few comments on the recent forum controversy...
In reply to Nich0las, Mar 29, 2013

Nick,

I think you are raising some interesting points and I agree with them. I personally do not mind the occasional posts from non-Leica cameras, including film cameras, but at some point about 40-50% of the posts where non-Leica related which maybe was a bit too much.

I think people really like the community here and want to be part of it. To use an analogy, I think dpr wanted this forum to be like a specialised camera store. We wanted it to be a gallery, but recently it has become a pub! The social interaction has become a big part of the communication here.

My personal view is that I am relaxed as long as the quality of the posts is high and relevant to photography. So, I vote for gallery!

Best, D

Nich0las wrote:

There are so many different forums on DPR - from Open Talk to Street or Landscape Photography and then all the different manufacturers. One thing that always appealed to me about the Leica forum when I used to be a regular in the Canon forum was the civility of contributors and very high quality of images.

The quality of images is a combination of factors - one being the Leica look that comes from Leica camera bodies but probably more the lenses, the second from the photographers that use them. Photographers who use Leica hardware tend to have gone through GAS and love the quality and simplicity afforded by Leica gear. We tend to be more experienced overall photography-wise, less concerned with gear and more concerned on the images produced.

There are many DPR members that come here either openly or stay in the shadows and appreciate both of those things - the civility of members and quality of images. Once you start accepting posts from other manufacturers you do start to lose a little of the essence of the Leica forum and it starts to become more of an 'Open/General' forum. You also then don't get the consistency of the 'Leica look' and also from the Leica forum members - Louis, Peter, Gianluca, David, Hugues, Choi, Misha etc... I would also say that overall the quality of images posted here is higher than that visible in other forums because of all the above factors and the years of experience behind many of the forums regular members.

In saying that I don't mind occasionally having guests post images from non-Leica equipment in order to get feedback or constructive criticism from Leica forum members - because by and large instead of focusing on the negative aspects of an image overall the comments do tend to help a photographer improve composition/processing etc... - I myself am very thankful for the feedback that I've received here.

The hard part for the mods though is where do you draw the line? If we allow 2 posts from other hardware for feedback/constructive criticism one day, then the next day you have 10 you begin to lose the essence of the Leica forum I feel, so it is easier to just say keep it Leica related and if you want to give feedback or want to seek feedback visit another forum...

All of us here share a common love for photography but also appreciate the philosophy behind Leica cameras and lenses - and it is those two things that make the forum unique.

Just my $0.02.

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Toccata47
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Re: Just a few comments on the recent forum controversy...
In reply to Nich0las, Mar 29, 2013

I didn't pay what I paid to chat with plebs or view their photography. End of story.

Nich0las wrote:

There are so many different forums on DPR - from Open Talk to Street or Landscape Photography and then all the different manufacturers. One thing that always appealed to me about the Leica forum when I used to be a regular in the Canon forum was the civility of contributors and very high quality of images.

The quality of images is a combination of factors - one being the Leica look that comes from Leica camera bodies but probably more the lenses, the second from the photographers that use them. Photographers who use Leica hardware tend to have gone through GAS and love the quality and simplicity afforded by Leica gear. We tend to be more experienced overall photography-wise, less concerned with gear and more concerned on the images produced.

There are many DPR members that come here either openly or stay in the shadows and appreciate both of those things - the civility of members and quality of images. Once you start accepting posts from other manufacturers you do start to lose a little of the essence of the Leica forum and it starts to become more of an 'Open/General' forum. You also then don't get the consistency of the 'Leica look' and also from the Leica forum members - Louis, Peter, Gianluca, David, Hugues, Choi, Misha etc... I would also say that overall the quality of images posted here is higher than that visible in other forums because of all the above factors and the years of experience behind many of the forums regular members.

In saying that I don't mind occasionally having guests post images from non-Leica equipment in order to get feedback or constructive criticism from Leica forum members - because by and large instead of focusing on the negative aspects of an image overall the comments do tend to help a photographer improve composition/processing etc... - I myself am very thankful for the feedback that I've received here.

The hard part for the mods though is where do you draw the line? If we allow 2 posts from other hardware for feedback/constructive criticism one day, then the next day you have 10 you begin to lose the essence of the Leica forum I feel, so it is easier to just say keep it Leica related and if you want to give feedback or want to seek feedback visit another forum...

All of us here share a common love for photography but also appreciate the philosophy behind Leica cameras and lenses - and it is those two things that make the forum unique.

Just my $0.02.

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Daedalus2000
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Re: Just a few comments on the recent forum controversy...
In reply to Toccata47, Mar 29, 2013

Toccata47 wrote:

I didn't pay what I paid to chat with plebs or view their photography. End of story.

!!!! Is this your own personal view?

dpr is free by the way!

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l_objectif
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Re: Just a few comments on the recent forum controversy...
In reply to Nich0las, Mar 30, 2013

First of all, I am very flattered to be named and thank you for the compliment!

Then, if tomorrow I decide to change camera and start shooting with Panasonic or Olympus; would my work be different than shooting with Leica/Panasonic P&S? ... Therefore, as an "inferior" shooter I should not be able to post in this forum where I have always been posting?...

Is it fair that people like Choi   or David  who are fantastic photographers and contribute so much to this forum be considered a lesser photographer when they shoot with NEX or RX1?...

If tomorrow Hugues decides to sell all his Leica gear and replace them with fuji, should we say his photography became bad and therefore, he doesn't belong to this forum?...

Sorry, I do not agree with this kind of argument!

Ever since I discovered this forum and became a member, we always had this attitude of sharing our work with others and I must add that I learned a lot an much more from people who are not using a Leica gear than from those lousy photos taken with S2 and M240 (D, I am not talking of you; I love your work)!

I find this ironic that all of a sudden this has become an issue and mostly from people who are recently become Leica Forum members or not members at all!...

Well, I guess we have to live with a world of diversities!....

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Daedalus2000
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Re: Just a few comments on the recent forum controversy...
In reply to l_objectif, Mar 30, 2013

Ever since I discovered this forum and became a member, we always had this attitude of sharing our work with others and I must add that I learned a lot an much more from people who are not using a Leica gear than from those lousy photos taken with S2 and M240 (D, I am not talking of you; I love your work)!

I almost got a heart attack reading this, so thanks for the clarification!

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l_objectif
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Re: Just a few comments on the recent forum controversy...
In reply to Daedalus2000, Mar 30, 2013

Daedalus2000 wrote:

Ever since I discovered this forum and became a member, we always had this attitude of sharing our work with others and I must add that I learned a lot an much more from people who are not using a Leica gear than from those lousy photos taken with S2 and M240 (D, I am not talking of you; I love your work)!

I almost got a heart attack reading this, so thanks for the clarification!

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John A Clark
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Re: Just a few comments on the recent forum controversy...
In reply to Daedalus2000, Mar 30, 2013

Then you have a post of "not shot on Leica but interesting anyway.." posts

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Nich0las
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Re: Just a few comments on the recent forum controversy...
In reply to Toccata47, Mar 30, 2013

Toccata47 wrote:

I didn't pay what I paid to chat with plebs or view their photography. End of story.

Last I saw Leica's could be had for the the price of many entry-level SLR's and a lot of Point & Shoot cameras... Since when does paying more for say the MM or M240 mean that you are better than someone with say an old M3 and 50 cron or nokton etc...?

Also as Louis has said - if he or David etc... starts shooting with a Sony RX1, NEX etc... does it necessarily change their photography?

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Nich0las
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Re: Just a few comments on the recent forum controversy...
In reply to l_objectif, Mar 30, 2013

Louis,

Of course your photography wouldn't change if you swapped cameras, but most people go from P&S to SLR to Leica, not necessarily from Leica back down to a P&S. Most of us have second and third camera bodies that are not Leica and of course we take great photos on them. The point I was trying to make was that it is that photographic experience with the other bodies that has led you to Leica, the quality of the glass and the style of shooting involved with a rangefinder and manual focusing - i.e. a very deliberate photographic process.

If I started taking a lot of photos with my iPhone or Canon S100 that I particularly enjoyed, I wouldn't post them in the DPR Leica forum - I would most likely put them in the DPR forum that they were aligned with, again to maintain the consistency that has come over the years from the Leica forum members combined with their Leica cameras and lenses.

I do still think that however much you shoot with another camera or lens, there will always be a unique look & feel that comes from a Leica - particularly via the high quality glass.

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Michael Everett
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Re: Just a few comments on the recent forum controversy...
In reply to John A Clark, Mar 30, 2013

I am one of the plebes who does not shoot with a Leica.  Like many others I came to the forum because of all the things that have been mentioned, the civility, the maturity of the posters, and not least the quality of the images.  At first this forum incited a good bit of Leica lust in me; but then I began to realize that I can get images that are so close it would be hard to distinguish them from Leica with my equipment, which is primarily a Nex 7 and an array of Canon and Zeiss legacy primes.  I say can get the images, not that I do get the images, as I don't consider myself at the same level of photographer as some of the regulars here.

So my Leica lust has mostly gone but I still enjoy the Leica forum.  I do kind of agree with the OP because I believe that it should be a predominantly Leica forum, and I have been hesitant to post images for that reason.  I don't know where to draw the line but I do respect those that shoot with Leicas and their sense of what is appropriate.

I will leave it to the Leica owners to sort this out.  In the meantime I will lay low and avoid overposting my welcome.

Michael

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BSweeney
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Re: Just a few comments on the recent forum controversy...
In reply to Fred Holzapfel, Mar 30, 2013

Fred Holzapfel wrote:

NichOlas,  Excellent points.   The more it is kept to Leica Glass and / or full Leica gear the more true to the forum.   Those occational none Lecia photographs may seem OK, but they do reduce the fourm.   Keep it more "Pure".    I'd have no problem is the moderators kept out non-Leica related topics and photograhs.

When this forum starts to be "Purist", I will delete all of my galleries and not bother anyone here anymore. I like Rangefinders, and I've switched to Digital. I have been using Monochrome Digital for 20 years. That leaves me with 3 Leica Digital RF bodies and about 60 lenses for them. Probably from at least a dozen manufacturers.

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David28
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Nicholas
In reply to Nich0las, Mar 30, 2013

Cannot disagree with anything you expressed.

Frankly, just two possible ways we can all view how these Forums "ought" (minute I hear that word, it smells of trouble) to be run.

I guess it does say LEICA over the shop front and we have, over time, taken a liberal interpretation of what this means. I feel that many folks in here, especially those who have been around for a while, have gained some attachment to the community that is the Leica forum and would be loathe to see ANY changes (which is unrealistic in a sense in these fast changing times) that may "threaten" the sense of community and the spirit so many speak of.

Then again, I also relate to some of the new voices wishing to participate in a more Leica only engagement. Setting aside any "right and wrong" that too is a valid wish when you think about it - as valid as those whose views are polarised.

Not really sure there is a way to tick all the boxes for everyone. And that is life. I try to remind myself every now and then when I get significant about things that they are only things, and barely figure in the list of really important things in MY life. Funny ..... but getting a cancer scare has a way of focusing the mind real quick.

Personally, the camaraderie I find here will always remain in some shape or another regardless of how we choose to interprete the rules of engagement going forward. I think Mick Jagger did say in his song

"you can't always get what you want
 you can't always get what you want
 but if you try sometime you find
 you always get what you need"

Thank you for taking the time to express your extremely well-reasoned thoughts.

David

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RoelHendrickx
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I agree with most of what is said here
In reply to Michael Everett, Mar 30, 2013

Michael Everett wrote:

I am one of the plebes who does not shoot with a Leica.  Like many others I came to the forum because of all the things that have been mentioned, the civility, the maturity of the posters, and not least the quality of the images.  At first this forum incited a good bit of Leica lust in me; but then I began to realize that I can get images that are so close it would be hard to distinguish them from Leica with my equipment, which is primarily a Nex 7 and an array of Canon and Zeiss legacy primes.  I say can get the images, not that I do get the images, as I don't consider myself at the same level of photographer as some of the regulars here.

So my Leica lust has mostly gone but I still enjoy the Leica forum.  I do kind of agree with the OP because I believe that it should be a predominantly Leica forum, and I have been hesitant to post images for that reason.  I don't know where to draw the line but I do respect those that shoot with Leicas and their sense of what is appropriate.

I will leave it to the Leica owners to sort this out.  In the meantime I will lay low and avoid overposting my welcome.

Michael

A few things:

1. I agree with Nicholas' points in the OP and the careful way he has worded them.  Very sensible.

2. I am one of those who occasionally post here with non-Leica gear (or not completely Leica : most often my post were images shot with Olympus or Panasonic bodies, but with a Leica connection in the lens).  I have always enjoyed the hospitality.  In a sense I like to think that a "Leica" look (in spirit and approach) is possible with other gear.

3. Some of my posts WERE indeed Leica related : posts considering gear and how it would affect my shooting (or not).

My most recent "contribution" - or "contamination" if you like ...  was Leica-inspired but not Leica...  I am buying a superfast lens (not Leica) but 99% of my reason for doing so, is Leica-inspired because of all the Noctilux talk and samples I have seen here.  That's a fine line, isn't it?

4. I will follow this thread with interest.  And respect the outcome.  At least the subject is now being discussed in a rational (and of course : civil) way.

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RoelHendrickx
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Re: Just a few comments on the recent forum controversy...
In reply to Daedalus2000, Mar 30, 2013

Daedalus2000 wrote:

Toccata47 wrote:

I didn't pay what I paid to chat with plebs or view their photography. End of story.

!!!! Is this your own personal view?

dpr is free by the way!

I am assuming Toccata's line was a bit tongue-in-cheek.

And with paying he did not refer to DPR membership, but to "membership" of the Leica-using elite...

The simple truth is that what Nicholas said is partly true:  there are indeed many Leica-users who have evolved towards Leica through a long line of experience with other cameras, and in Leica they finally find a way of expressing that fits them best.

But the opposite is also true: there are also Leica-users who buy Leica because of the snob factor (I've read recently that it is currently a fad amongst rich models, actors and singers to hang a Leica around your neck like you would wear a necklace or jewel).  And they could benefit from interaction with passionate photographers using other brands, because they could, if they would, learn a few things about art and composition.

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Daedalus2000
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Re: Just a few comments on the recent forum controversy...
In reply to RoelHendrickx, Mar 30, 2013

RoelHendrickx wrote:

Daedalus2000 wrote:

Toccata47 wrote:

I didn't pay what I paid to chat with plebs or view their photography. End of story.

!!!! Is this your own personal view?

dpr is free by the way!

I am assuming Toccata's line was a bit tongue-in-cheek.

Always good to check, as statements like these are controversial. There was no mention to one's ability to buy in the OP.

And with paying he did not refer to DPR membership, but to "membership" of the Leica-using elite...

Yes I know, but I was trying through humour to remind that this is about the forum and not about your camera price.

The simple truth is that what Nicholas said is partly true:  there are indeed many Leica-users who have evolved towards Leica through a long line of experience with other cameras, and in Leica they finally find a way of expressing that fits them best.

True.

But the opposite is also true: there are also Leica-users who buy Leica because of the snob factor (I've read recently that it is currently a fad amongst rich models, actors and singers to hang a Leica around your neck like you would wear a necklace or jewel).

But this is irrelevant in our discussion. At the end of the day what matters is your output, if your photography is good or you show willingness to learn and become better (e.g. I consider myself a total beginner) you are welcome.

And they could benefit from interaction with passionate photographers using other brands, because they could, if they would, learn a few things about art and composition.

Agreed. I would be sad if, for example, you stopped posting.

D

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Paul20
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The Leica Forum and British Democracy
In reply to Nich0las, Mar 30, 2013

Nich0las wrote:

There are so many different forums on DPR - from Open Talk to Street or Landscape Photography and then all the different manufacturers. One thing that always appealed to me about the Leica forum when I used to be a regular in the Canon forum was the civility of contributors and very high quality of images.

The quality of images is a combination of factors - one being the Leica look that comes from Leica camera bodies but probably more the lenses, the second from the photographers that use them. Photographers who use Leica hardware tend to have gone through GAS and love the quality and simplicity afforded by Leica gear. We tend to be more experienced overall photography-wise, less concerned with gear and more concerned on the images produced.

There are many DPR members that come here either openly or stay in the shadows and appreciate both of those things - the civility of members and quality of images. Once you start accepting posts from other manufacturers you do start to lose a little of the essence of the Leica forum and it starts to become more of an 'Open/General' forum. You also then don't get the consistency of the 'Leica look' and also from the Leica forum members - Louis, Peter, Gianluca, David, Hugues, Choi, Misha etc... I would also say that overall the quality of images posted here is higher than that visible in other forums because of all the above factors and the years of experience behind many of the forums regular members.

In saying that I don't mind occasionally having guests post images from non-Leica equipment in order to get feedback or constructive criticism from Leica forum members - because by and large instead of focusing on the negative aspects of an image overall the comments do tend to help a photographer improve composition/processing etc... - I myself am very thankful for the feedback that I've received here.

The hard part for the mods though is where do you draw the line? If we allow 2 posts from other hardware for feedback/constructive criticism one day, then the next day you have 10 you begin to lose the essence of the Leica forum I feel, so it is easier to just say keep it Leica related and if you want to give feedback or want to seek feedback visit another forum...

All of us here share a common love for photography but also appreciate the philosophy behind Leica cameras and lenses - and it is those two things that make the forum unique.

Just my $0.02.

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Nick,

What we need here is a good old fashioned British fudge.

Lets look at the British Democratic systems as a guide to the future of the Leica Forum.

British democracy is often held in high regard, yet our second chamber - The House of Lords are completely unelected. Similarly our Sovereign, the Queen, has ultimate power over Bills passed by the House of Lords/House of Commons, [she even has the power to go to war] and of course she is also unelected.

Our great democracy is not pure, our constitution is a fudge, based on years of power struggles, compromises and unwritten laws.

And yet.......and yet it - kinda works the way it is.

Paul

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Daedalus2000
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Re: The Leica Forum and British Democracy
In reply to Paul20, Mar 30, 2013

Nick,

What we need here is a good old fashioned British fudge.

Lets look at the British Democratic systems as a guide to the future of the Leica Forum.

British democracy is often held in high regard, yet our second chamber - The House of Lords are completely unelected. Similarly our Sovereign, the Queen, has ultimate power over Bills passed by the House of Lords/House of Commons, [she even has the power to go to war] and of course she is also unelected.

Our great democracy is not pure, our constitution is a fudge, based on years of power struggles, compromises and unwritten laws.

And yet.......and yet it - kinda works the way it is.

Paul

Haha! Are you proposing a class system?

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Paul20
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Re: The Leica Forum and British Democracy
In reply to Daedalus2000, Mar 30, 2013

Daedalus2000 wrote:

Nick,

What we need here is a good old fashioned British fudge.

Lets look at the British Democratic systems as a guide to the future of the Leica Forum.

British democracy is often held in high regard, yet our second chamber - The House of Lords are completely unelected. Similarly our Sovereign, the Queen, has ultimate power over Bills passed by the House of Lords/House of Commons, [she even has the power to go to war] and of course she is also unelected.

Our great democracy is not pure, our constitution is a fudge, based on years of power struggles, compromises and unwritten laws.

And yet.......and yet it - kinda works the way it is.

Paul

Haha! Are you proposing a class system?

Lol !!! I was thinking more of the tolerance of an imperfect system.

Paul

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