Tilt/Shift for MFT!

Started Mar 29, 2013 | Discussions
gskolenda
Contributing MemberPosts: 680Gear list
Like?
Tilt/Shift for MFT!
Mar 29, 2013

I need some help. Has anyone used the Canon or Nikon tilt and shift wide angle lenses on either the GH2 or GH3 cameras? How does it work. sharp, does the shift work well for architecture?

I just got a GH3 and so far really like it, but I will be in need of a tilt and shift lens to do Real Estate Video. Pretty wide also.  Any input would be great.

Thanks in advance.:-)

 gskolenda's gear list:gskolenda's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH3 Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX10 Panasonic Leica DG Macro-Elmarit 45mm F2.8 ASPH OIS Panasonic 12-35mm F2.8
Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH2 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH3
If you believe there are incorrect tags, please send us this post using our feedback form.
Vlad S
Senior MemberPosts: 3,089Gear list
Like?
There's no "pretty wide" TS lens for µ4/3
In reply to gskolenda, Mar 29, 2013

AFAIK, the widest Canon TS lens is 17mm, which is not really wide, and for Nikon it's 24mm, which is normal FL. There are TS adapters that you could use to mount a regular 17mm or even wider legacy lens, and it would cost you a lot less than a lens with built-in TS mechanism; but all adapters are less than perfect. As far at TS is concerned we are not in a very good place at this time.

Vlad

 Vlad S's gear list:Vlad S's gear list
Olympus OM-D E-M5 Panasonic Lumix G Vario 14-45mm F3.5-5.6 ASPH OIS Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 9-18mm 1:4.0-5.6 Panasonic Lumix G 20mm F1.7 ASPH Panasonic Lumix G Vario 100-300mm F4-5.6 OIS +2 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
MAubrey
Senior MemberPosts: 1,481Gear list
Like?
Re: Tilt/Shift for MFT!
In reply to gskolenda, Mar 29, 2013

If you want TS, full frame is really your only do-able option right now.

-- hide signature --

--Mike

 MAubrey's gear list:MAubrey's gear list
Olympus OM-D E-M5 Sony Alpha 7 Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 9-18mm 1:4.0-5.6 Voigtlander 58mm F1.4 Nokton SL II Voigtlander 35mm F1.2 Nokton +7 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
inasir1971
Senior MemberPosts: 3,117Gear list
Like?
Re: Tilt/Shift for MFT!
In reply to gskolenda, Mar 29, 2013

As the previous poster indicated the widest T/S lenses for Canon/Nikon are 17mm and 24mm respectively.

I have the Nikon PC-E 45. The Nikon PC-E lenses cannot be used via adapter. They use an electronic aperture and require communication from the body to operate - there is no hidden aperture lever inside the mount so an adapter for 'G' lenses will not help. I believe Canon TS-E lenses operate the same.

I think the older PC lenses (current ones are PC-E) may be usable as they lack the electronic aperture.

You are also going to have a problem with support. The lenses are quite heavy and the MFT mount may not be able to support them especially with the required adapter which will move them even more off center.

I think your best bet might be to correct perspective distortion using software such as DXO ViewPoint.

If the software solution isn't going to work and you really need to use a T/S lens, at least nowadays a full frame body (Nikon D600 / Canon 6D) costs around the same or less than a T/S lens.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Lobby Ludd
Senior MemberPosts: 2,252Gear list
Like?
Panny 7-14 ?
In reply to gskolenda, Mar 29, 2013

I don't know much about T/S or architectural photography, but I think the Panny 7-14 is rectilinear corrected to do this type of work. Maybe someone who knows more about it can give advice. But either way, the 7-14 is a very nice lens.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
plevyadophy
Veteran MemberPosts: 4,250Gear list
Like?
All you ever wanted to know about T & S for mFT Re: Tilt/Shift for MFT!
In reply to gskolenda, Mar 29, 2013

gskolenda wrote:

I need some help. Has anyone used the Canon or Nikon tilt and shift wide angle lenses on either the GH2 or GH3 cameras? How does it work. sharp, does the shift work well for architecture?

I just got a GH3 and so far really like it, but I will be in need of a tilt and shift lens to do Real Estate Video. Pretty wide also.  Any input would be great.

Thanks in advance.:-)

All you ever wanted to know about T & S for mFT

Here are a load of links for you covering the options for T & S:

(1)

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1041&message=34946199

(2)

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1041&message=35317814&changemode=1

(3)

http://www.araxfoto.com/accessories/shift/

(4)

http://www.araxfoto.com/accessories/tilt/

(5)

http://www.ayton.id.au/wp02/?p=2629

(6)

dpreview.com-news-1009-10092208lensbabycomposertilttransformer.asp

(7)

http://www.ayton.id.au/wp02/?p=3184

(8)

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1041&message=35161505

(9)

http://johnhmawphotography.blogspot.com/2007/07/hartblei-45mm-super-duper-rotator-part.html

(10)

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1041&thread=35479666

(11)

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1041&message=32667237&changemode=1

(12)

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1041&message=34754904

(13)

http://www.dpreview.com/news/1009/10092208lensbabycomposertilttransformer.asp

(14)

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1041&message=36551799

(15)

http://www.adrianololli.com/articolo.asp?ID=3107

(16)

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5579

(17)

http://www.fotodiox.com/catalog/index.php?cPath=21_100

(18)

http://www.ayton.id.au/wp02/?p=2771

(19)

http://www.43rumors.com/surprise-new-shif-lens-for-micro-four-thirds/

(20)

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/read.asp?forum=1041&message=35024931

(21)

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1041&thread=32467825

(22)

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1041&message=32467825&changemode=1

(23)

http://forum.getdpi.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7822

(24)

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/readflat.asp?forum=1041&message=33102254

(25)

http://www.zoerk.com/pages/p_mfs.htm

(26)

http://www.davidclapp.co.uk/zork_mfs.php

Hopefully, within that lot you should find something that meets your requirements.

If you do, please post some feedback.

Thanks in advance.

Regards,

plevyadophy

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Lost in Time
Regular MemberPosts: 207
Like?
Re: Panny 7-14 ?
In reply to Lobby Ludd, Mar 29, 2013

Lobby Ludd wrote:

I don't know much about T/S or architectural photography, but I think the Panny 7-14 is rectilinear corrected to do this type of work. Maybe someone who knows more about it can give advice. But either way, the 7-14 is a very nice lens.

The OP needs perspective correction, not fish-eye (or other lens) corrections. The shift movement in a tilt-shift lens allows you to correct for the "falling over backward" perspective you get with a wide angle lens when shooting (for example) a tall building.

Two examples - the first with a P&S showing perspective, the second with a FF DSLR and TS lens: Duomo (G12) and Duomo (Tilt-Shift). Some other examples of TS (rather heavily processed): Valencia and Berlin [flickr].

You can use software perspective correction. The main penalty of this is potentially significant loss of image quality as a result of severe stretching of regions of the image. Whether this matters or not depends on the usage - for many web uses, it may not matter.  If it is a problem, you can compensate by shooting a panorama with a longer-than-necessary lens and stitching to get a super-high resolution image. You can then apply correction to this.

What you get from a FF DSLR and TS lens is excellent image quality with very little effort. It may be worth buying a budget FF DSLR and TS lens if you talk a lot of images that need correction and want the best possible results. Alternatively, if you can use software correction in the interim, there are rumors of some u4/3 TS lenses coming from Samyang.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Jouko
Senior MemberPosts: 1,185
Like?
PP
In reply to gskolenda, Mar 29, 2013

As you have been told, there are no native wide TS lenses for mFT or FT mount yet. Some longer ones, old and new, can be found, like Olympus zuiko 24mm and 35mm, Arrax, Nikkor, Canon...

For some uses the post prosessing can be an alternative. You just have to frame the photo having that in mind - you'll loose some area from the capture. With a 16Mpix camera (or even 12Mpix) that is limiting (or not, depends on the use and correction amount).

Some shots from Rome, corrected. EP3, 12-60mm or 9-18mm FT-Zuikos.

Cheers!

Jouko
'The best camera in the world is the one you have with you when you need it'
http://lehtokukka.smugmug.com/
http://jouko-lehto.artistwebsites.com/

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Sergey Borachev
Senior MemberPosts: 2,482Gear list
Like?
Re: There's no "pretty wide" TS lens for µ4/3
In reply to Vlad S, Mar 29, 2013

Vlad S wrote:

AFAIK, the widest Canon TS lens is 17mm, which is not really wide, and for Nikon it's 24mm, which is normal FL. There are TS adapters that you could use to mount a regular 17mm or even wider legacy lens, and it would cost you a lot less than a lens with built-in TS mechanism; but all adapters are less than perfect. As far at TS is concerned we are not in a very good place at this time.

Vlad

Not really wide?  17mm is very wide for a FF UWA lens, and for a FF TS lens, it is extremely wide.  These type of lenses provide a much bigger image circle when shifted.  So a 17mm must be qbout 12mm (guessing here) and for FF, that is beyond extreme.  24mm is also really wide for a TS lens.  They are other more common or less wide tilt or shift lenses, like 28mm or 35mm lenses.

People often talk about IQ and DOF as the signficant drawbacks of a smaller sensor, but this is also a significant weakness for the small formats like M43 - tilt shift lenses, or for use in this type of applications, because of the high quality and big enlargements associated.  The cost and requirements in these lenses are such that TS is simply not worth it for M43, and not even for APS-C.  That's why they are made mainly for FF.  Using adapters to amount those FF TS lenses are silly, because you reduce the width of such lenses so substantially.  If you can afford these super expensive TS lenses, it is advisable to just buy a cheap FF camera for any serious work.  TS lenses made for smaller formats are not worth it.

A cheaper way is to use bellows, but it gets very complicated.

No, I do not think there will ever be a TS for M43. No point.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Sergey Borachev
Senior MemberPosts: 2,482Gear list
Like?
Re: There's no "pretty wide" TS lens for µ4/3
In reply to Sergey Borachev, Mar 29, 2013

Sergey Borachev wrote:

Vlad S wrote:

AFAIK, the widest Canon TS lens is 17mm, which is not really wide, and for Nikon it's 24mm, which is normal FL. There are TS adapters that you could use to mount a regular 17mm or even wider legacy lens, and it would cost you a lot less than a lens with built-in TS mechanism; but all adapters are less than perfect. As far at TS is concerned we are not in a very good place at this time.

Vlad

Not really wide?  17mm is very wide for a FF UWA lens, and for a FF TS lens, it is extremely wide.  These type of lenses provide a much bigger image circle when shifted.  So a 17mm must be qbout 12mm (guessing here) and for FF, that is beyond extreme.  24mm is also really wide for a TS lens.  They are other more common or less wide tilt or shift lenses, like 28mm or 35mm lenses.

People often talk about IQ and DOF as the signficant drawbacks of a smaller sensor, but this is also a significant weakness for the small formats like M43 - tilt shift lenses, or for use in this type of applications, because of the high quality and big enlargements associated.  The cost and requirements in these lenses are such that TS is simply not worth it for M43, and not even for APS-C.  That's why they are made mainly for FF.  Using adapters to amount those FF TS lenses are silly, because you reduce the width of such lenses so substantially.  If you can afford these super expensive TS lenses, it is advisable to just buy a cheap FF camera for any serious work.  TS lenses made for smaller formats are not worth it.

A cheaper way is to use bellows, but it gets very complicated.

No, I do not think there will ever be a TS for M43. No point.

Just adding this.  I do not think there will ever be a TS for M43, except toys.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
DarkShift
Regular MemberPosts: 214Gear list
Like?
Setting aperture on an EF lens
In reply to inasir1971, Mar 29, 2013

Aperture can be set to fixed aperture on EF lens like this:

1. Mount EF lens on an EOS body and set the aperture via camera.

2. Press the DOF preview button down and simultaneously remove the lens

3. Now the aperture is set until its attached to EOS body (with power on).

If UWA thing is not needed, any larger format lens would do with proper tilt or shift adapter.

 DarkShift's gear list:DarkShift's gear list
Olympus OM-D E-M5 Nikon D800 Sony Alpha 7R Nikon D810
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Chez Wimpy
Veteran MemberPosts: 8,759Gear list
Like?
Re: There's no "pretty wide" TS lens for µ4/3
In reply to Sergey Borachev, Mar 29, 2013

Sergey Borachev wrote:

So a 17mm must be qbout 12mm (guessing here) and for FF, that is beyond extreme.

It is actually something like 10mm and the widest rectilinear lens in production...  digital MF backs let you get the most of it.

-- hide signature --

-CW

 Chez Wimpy's gear list:Chez Wimpy's gear list
Sigma DP1 Canon EOS 5D Mark II Canon EOS 20D Panasonic Lumix DMC-G1 Canon EOS 550D +23 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
plevyadophy
Veteran MemberPosts: 4,250Gear list
Like?
There will be TS options for mFT and there already is Re: There's no "pretty wide" TS lens for µ4/3
In reply to Sergey Borachev, Mar 29, 2013

Sergey Borachev wrote:

Sergey Borachev wrote:

Vlad S wrote:

AFAIK, the widest Canon TS lens is 17mm, which is not really wide, and for Nikon it's 24mm, which is normal FL. There are TS adapters that you could use to mount a regular 17mm or even wider legacy lens, and it would cost you a lot less than a lens with built-in TS mechanism; but all adapters are less than perfect. As far at TS is concerned we are not in a very good place at this time.

Vlad

Not really wide?  17mm is very wide for a FF UWA lens, an for a FF TS lens, it is extremely wide.  These type of lenses provide a much bigger image circle when shifted.  So a 17mm must be qbout 12mm (guessing here) and for FF, that is beyond extreme.  24mm is also really wide for a TS lens.  They are other more common or less wide tilt or shift lenses, like 28mm or 35mm lenses.

People often talk about IQ and DOF as the signficant drawbacks of a smaller sensor, but this is also a significant weakness for the small formats like M43 - tilt shift lenses, or for use in this type of applications, because of the high quality and big enlargements associated.  The cost and requirements in these lenses are such that TS is simply not worth it for M43, and not even for APS-C.  That's why they are made mainly for FF.  Using adapters to amount those FF TS lenses are silly, because you reduce the width of such lenses so substantially.  If you can afford these super expensive TS lenses, it is advisable to just buy a cheap FF camera for any serious work.  TS lenses made for smaller formats are not worth it.

A cheaper way is to use bellows, but it gets very complicated.

No, I do not think there will ever be a TS for M43. No point.

Just adding this.  I do not think there will ever be a TS for M43, except toys.

There will be TS for mFT and there probably already is.

Did you read my VERY detailed post below? http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51179697

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Sergey Borachev
Senior MemberPosts: 2,482Gear list
Like?
Re: There's no "pretty wide" TS lens for µ4/3
In reply to plevyadophy, Mar 29, 2013

No, I did not read the details of your post.  Sorry, but the OP was saying there are no "pretty wide" TS lens.  Is any of the lenses you mentioned "pretty wide" when mounted with an adapter on a M43 camera, i.e. wider than what the Panasonic 7-14mm?  If not, there is no point.  And if there is something with an effective FOV wider than that, i.e. 6mm or less, is it providing good enough image quality at the shifted end of the picture for large enlargements?  If not, they are not really worth it, and are therefore toys.  That's what I meant by no TS lenses for M43 except toys.  For smaller prints, there is no need for TS lenses, just use the 7-14mm, and if necessary, use software correction.

For proper viewing, photos made with ultra wide and extreme wide lens need to be enlarged really big, to provide the proper original FOV feel. I don't think any  lens wider than 7mm, after shifting, can provide a decent quality image on M43 size sensors for very big enlargements to be of use in any serious application.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
plevyadophy
Veteran MemberPosts: 4,250Gear list
Like?
Re: There's no "pretty wide" TS lens for µ4/3
In reply to Sergey Borachev, Mar 29, 2013

Sergey Borachev wrote:

No, I did not read the details of your post.  Sorry, but the OP was saying there are no "pretty wide" TS lens.  Is any of the lenses you mentioned "pretty wide" when mounted with an adapter on a M43 camera, i.e. wider than what the Panasonic 7-14mm?  If not, there is no point.  And if there is something with an effective FOV wider than that, i.e. 6mm or less, is it providing good enough image quality at the shifted end of the picture for large enlargements?  If not, they are not really worth it, and are therefore toys.  That's what I meant by no TS lenses for M43 except toys.  For smaller prints, there is no need for TS lenses, just use the 7-14mm, and if necessary, use software correction.

For proper viewing, photos made with ultra wide and extreme wide lens need to be enlarged really big, to provide the proper original FOV feel. I don't think any  lens wider than 7mm, after shifting, can provide a decent quality image on M43 size sensors for very big enlargements to be of use in any serious application.

But the problem with the 7-14mm is that it has no persepctive control........unlesss you do it in software which has it's image quality issues.

I guess it depends what one is photographing and how. If one wants to stand close to buildings and take shots without the final image looking as though it is falling over, then a perspective control lens is required. If on the other hand the OP simply wants a wide field of view then the Panasonic 7-14mm lens should do just fine (most real estate agents I see asking for photographers to shoot interiors usually specify a 16mm lens equivalent field of view, so the Panny 7-14 lens should suffice for these types of application).

The links I posted has a wealth of information including dedicated mFT tilts shift adapters. I am sure if the OP can find a wide enough full frame lens, offering decent image charactersistics (there is often problems for example with old manual focus lenses wider than about 40mm) then there will be an adaptor that can be used to satisy the OP's needs. But like you say, if the OP is after something wider than 7-14mm then there is really no option but a dedicated digital lens and there aren't any around that I am aware of that will work with the mFT cams (but some of those links might have something, I am not sure because I simply provided the links I had saved over the years and didn't re-read them before posting).

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Sergey Borachev
Senior MemberPosts: 2,482Gear list
Like?
Re: There's no "pretty wide" TS lens for µ4/3
In reply to plevyadophy, Mar 29, 2013

plevyadophy,

I think your list of links is a great resource and I am sure the links are very useful for someone doing more artistic work.

I am sorry I did not read properly the earlier posts and my comments and recommendation were not good.  I just glanced through those posts and I was assuming the OP needed to take still photos and make good commercial quality prints or large posters etc.  It is true that still photos can be taken with much less pain and cheaper with a 7-14mm and some software PP can correction barrel distortion or straighten converging lines, and take out the big empty foreground.  However, I can now see that this simple solution is not what the OP wants.  He needs to take architectural video.

I don't know much about video but I think it would be too much if at all possible to do the software PP on video.  He is right to think about TS lenses.  Resolution can be a lot lower for video, but straight parallel lines must be straight and parallel.  The need will be mainly to correct perspective, i.e. shifting. So, as long as he can find one of the lens/adapter combination in your list with enough width, all is fine and your adapter and lenses would provide the right answer.  Otherwise, FF is the way to go.  Or perhaps just getting to a better or higher shooting position.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Vlad S
Senior MemberPosts: 3,089Gear list
Like?
Re: There's no "pretty wide" TS lens for µ4/3
In reply to Sergey Borachev, Mar 30, 2013

Sergey Borachev wrote:

Not really wide?  17mm is very wide for a FF UWA lens, and for a FF TS lens, it is extremely wide.  These type of lenses provide a much bigger image circle when shifted.  So a 17mm must be qbout 12mm (guessing here) and for FF, that is beyond extreme.

The key word here is "full frame." If you look at the subject of my post, it says "There's no "pretty wide" TS lens for µ4/3."

A 17mm lens, as you very well know, will only give a 35mm equivalent field of view on a micro 4/3 camera. No matter how much you can shift it, you can only photograph 65 degrees diagonal angle, which may be wide for street shooting, but in an apartment it quite narrow. If you look at the real estate images, they typically use a much wider field of view, especially residential real estate.

Vlad

 Vlad S's gear list:Vlad S's gear list
Olympus OM-D E-M5 Panasonic Lumix G Vario 14-45mm F3.5-5.6 ASPH OIS Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 9-18mm 1:4.0-5.6 Panasonic Lumix G 20mm F1.7 ASPH Panasonic Lumix G Vario 100-300mm F4-5.6 OIS +2 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
gskolenda
Contributing MemberPosts: 680Gear list
Like?
Re: All you ever wanted to know about T & S for mFT Re: Tilt/Shift for MFT!
In reply to plevyadophy, Mar 30, 2013

Thanks, for all the great links and debates here on Tilt/Shift lenses. Adobe Premier Pro, allows for perspective control of video. But I was hoping to keep from having to to it in post. It's nice to do things in camera when you can.

Again Thanks, I might be interested to see when the Samyang T/S comes out, I don't care if it's all manual.

Thanks,

Leon

 gskolenda's gear list:gskolenda's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH3 Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX10 Panasonic Leica DG Macro-Elmarit 45mm F2.8 ASPH OIS Panasonic 12-35mm F2.8
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Optical1
Senior MemberPosts: 1,022Gear list
Like?
Re: Tilt/Shift for MFT?
In reply to gskolenda, Mar 30, 2013

I need some help. Has anyone used the Canon or Nikon tilt and shift wide angle lenses on either the GH2 or GH3 cameras? How does it work. sharp, does the shift work well for architecture?

I just got a GH3 and so far really like it, but I will be in need of a tilt and shift lens to do Real Estate Video. Pretty wide also.  Any input would be great.

Thanks in advance.:-)

Why the exclamation point? I clicked on this thread thinking you had found a tilt shift lens for m43. You are asking a question and should use a question mark.

 Optical1's gear list:Optical1's gear list
Canon PowerShot S95 Sony RX100 Sony RX1 Ricoh GR Olympus PEN E-PM1 +17 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Sergey Borachev
Senior MemberPosts: 2,482Gear list
Like?
Re: There's no "pretty wide" TS lens for µ4/3
In reply to Vlad S, Mar 30, 2013

OK, Vlad.  I misunderstood what you said but I understand you were saying now.  17mm is not very wide for M43.  I think we agree that FF is the way for a truly wide TS lens.

What I meant to say is that the 17mm TS lens and 24mm TS lens are actually FF lenses, and therefore really wide lenses when shifted.  They were not meant to be adapted for M43 use.  An adapter that shifts and tilts an UWA M43 lens might work though for the OP.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads