A result of negative user feedback for Windows 8?

Started Mar 28, 2013 | Discussions
skyglider
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A result of negative user feedback for Windows 8?
Mar 28, 2013

I've wondered if negative user feedback after the Christmas sales of Windows 8 computers would result in going back to Windows 7 (or adding the desktop start menu to Windows 8).

Well Levono is "downgrading" their enterprise PCs to Windows 7 by default and supplying Windows 8 on a disc.  Quote: "Of course, that's exactly what customers want - and Lenovo is reaping the benefit of listening to those customers."

http://www.channelregister.co.uk/2013/03/18/lenovo_windows8_meh/

As the song goes, maybe "This could be the start of something big",
Sky

malch
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Re: A result of negative user feedback for Windows 8?
In reply to skyglider, Mar 28, 2013

skyglider wrote:

I've wondered if negative user feedback after the Christmas sales of Windows 8 computers would result in going back to Windows 7 (or adding the desktop start menu to Windows 8).

MS have only themselves to blame.

I do find it sad that the entire debate is focused on Metro. That's a thin veneer on the surface that is easily replaced anyway. MS should have offered a system with multiple shells/desktops, even options from third parties. I think it would have been a winner. But they decided they wanted to force people to their store because they wanted a bigger iTunes than iTunes. I hope it bites.

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Sean Nelson
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Re: A result of negative user feedback for Windows 8?
In reply to malch, Mar 29, 2013

malch wrote:

But they decided they wanted to force people to their store because they wanted a bigger iTunes than iTunes. I hope it bites.

...which is really stupid in the sense that they don't have anywhere near the products to offer in the Windows 8 store that iTunes or Google Play do.  Just look at the apps available to handle the WiFi options now available on most new cameras - they're virtually all iPad/Android.  I've yet to see one available for Windows 8.

Chicken and egg problem, that's what they're trying to overcome by forcing folks to Metro.   If they can get enough Metro users then they'll be able to hold them out as a carrot to developers.   Right now, they can just take the number of Windows 8 licenses and claim they're all Metro users (which of course they aren't...)

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cr4guy
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Re: A result of negative user feedback for Windows 8?
In reply to skyglider, Mar 29, 2013

skyglider wrote:

8<

As the song goes, maybe "This could be the start of something big",
Sky

Indeed....

http://www.trustedreviews.com/opinions/can-windows-blue-make-users-care-about-windows-8

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Glen Barrington
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Re: A result of negative user feedback for Windows 8?
In reply to skyglider, Mar 29, 2013

I must say, the only thing keeping me a Windows 7 user is Lightroom.  Microsoft and I simply don't seem to be headed in the same direction.

I don't see me running even Win 7 in 2 years.  I've already got Unbutu Linux installed as a dual boot on the PC I use as s digital darkroom.  And I'm exploring some of the more serious Linux based photo software options.

Adobe needs to wake up and smell the coffee, many of these Linux based titles really only need minor tweaking to start stealing customers from Adobe.  A Linux based digital darkroom is quite 'do-able' at this point, but many of the conveniences and features I would like to keep are still missing.  For instance, I'd like to continue how I convert my photos to DNG. (I'm not going to argue the merits of DNG, please don't go there)

I tried the Aftershot pro trial when it came out, but that was as a possible Lr replacement (I felt it didn't offer enough reasons to switch - But if Lr suddenly is no longer available, maybe I need to reconsider) .  Does anyone know if the Linux version of Aftershot Pro has kept up with the Win7 version in terms of updates or was that Linux version was just a publicity stunt?

Also, I would like to evaluate the ASP Linux version on Unbutu.  But since I've already evaluated ASP in Windows, I'm not sure that is possible.  How does Corel keep track of evaluation downloads for Linux?  And does ASP run well on Unbutu?

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AndyCS
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Re: A result of negative user feedback for Windows 8?
In reply to Glen Barrington, Mar 29, 2013

Sadly, looking increasingly likely that ASP is a dead product, have a look at the discontent over at the Corel ASP Forum

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Scott Eaton
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no, it's not, and I'm sick of saying it
In reply to malch, Mar 29, 2013

malch wrote:

skyglider wrote:

I've wondered if negative user feedback after the Christmas sales of Windows 8 computers would result in going back to Windows 7 (or adding the desktop start menu to Windows 8).

MS have only themselves to blame.

I do find it sad that the entire debate is focused on Metro. That's a thin veneer on the surface that is easily replaced anyway. MS should have offered a system with multiple shells/desktops, even options from third parties.

Totally untrue. Metro *cannot* be de-coupled from Win8 as per my other comments on this, and adding 3rd party start emulators just creates another potential problem down the road when MS service packs inevitably break them. Win8 is not the same thing as Windows 3.11 with Norton Desktop installed.

You get forced into the Metro interface for all kinds of things including clicking on media files, mailto links, and other common tasks. The Metro wizards are also very difficult to get out of, which is why I get calls from frustrated users locked into Metro and harassed to sign up for MS cloud services nearly to the point of tears. At this point I'm not sure if I'm more aggravated at Microsoft, or the Best Buy clerks (and people here) giving bad advice about how some third party app 'deactivates' Metro.

I agree that Microsoft should have allowed two versions of the of the OS and with a choice of GUI's. Fast food chains and tablet makers can shoose Metro while people working for a living can choose the classic shell. The problem is while this is good for users it cuts into MS's potential profit stream. Corporate software and hardware refreshes are getting longer and longer, and even Win7 is lagging behind XP. With no product downstream from Win7 MS choose to go with tablet market because it's growing fast (in the short term).

Good for Lenovo...I hope Dell and HP follow suite. Then MS can pull their 'coke / new coke' scenario and announce a non metro version of Windows.

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Birk Binnard
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Th real question is : Why did Microsoft do it?
In reply to skyglider, Mar 29, 2013

My sense is that the answer is quite simple - the want to change their business model from one that is product oriented to one that is subscription oriented.

My guess is that they realize that the PC world is sort of like the old CB Radio world: at some point everyone who wants one has one, so then the prices bottom out and you have to come up with some sort of new way to make money.

The success of Apple and their handheld devices is clearly not lost on Microsoft. So what they did was change the focus of their company (and it's products) to a different concept, and Metro is their initial foray into that universe.  It seems to me they have decided the desktop universe is moribund, and they no longer want to be a major player there.

The point about Best Buy's Geek squad and tablet makers is right on - the Metro universe may be a great way for companies to make money selling lots of $5 products (heck, I paid $5 for Start8 for my new laptop) but that is a totally different space from the one where people use PC's to do real work.  That latter space is very mature now and it's not clear to me that there is much anyone can do to make it better for it's inhabitants.  Apparently Microsoft doesn't think so either and is now on track to move it's business somewhere else.

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malch
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Re: no, it's not, and I'm sick of saying it
In reply to Scott Eaton, Mar 29, 2013

Scott Eaton wrote:


I do find it sad that the entire debate is focused on Metro. That's a thin veneer on the surface that is easily replaced anyway. MS should have offered a system with multiple shells/desktops, even options from third parties.

Totally untrue. Metro *cannot* be de-coupled from Win8 as per my other comments on this, and adding 3rd party start emulators just creates another potential problem down the road when MS service packs inevitably break them. Win8 is not the same thing as Windows 3.11 with Norton Desktop installed.

You get forced into the Metro interface for all kinds of things including clicking on media files, mailto links, and other common tasks. The Metro wizards are also very difficult to get out of, which is why I get calls from frustrated users locked into Metro and harassed to sign up for MS cloud services nearly to the point of tears. At this point I'm not sure if I'm more aggravated at Microsoft, or the Best Buy clerks (and people here) giving bad advice about how some third party app 'deactivates' Metro.

Well, maybe I should have said... "should have been a thin veneer...".

I don't think we're in fundamental disagreement on the main issues here although you seem to be suggesting that Metro's tentacles run deeper than I had been led to believe. I still think that has more to do with specific implementation issues than it does the fundamental architecture. I mean, who thinks it makes sense to put UI code down in the kernel, file system, networking layers etc.?

I have a new Win 8 system arriving next week and I'll be exploring these issues in a lot more detail. However, at this point, I'm leaning to discarding Win 8 and installing Win 7.

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skyglider
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Metro apps and losing market share
In reply to Scott Eaton, Mar 29, 2013

Scott Eaton wrote:

You get forced into the Metro interface for all kinds of things including clicking on media files, mailto links, and other common tasks. The Metro wizards are also very difficult to get out of, which is why I get calls from frustrated users locked into Metro and harassed to sign up for MS cloud services nearly to the point of tears. At this point I'm not sure if I'm more aggravated at Microsoft, or the Best Buy clerks (and people here) giving bad advice about how some third party app 'deactivates' Metro.

Yes, running a Metro app from the desktop, even while running a 3rd party app like the "Classic Shell", does switch Win8 back to the Metro UI.  New Win8 users need to avoid running any Metro apps if they want to remain in the desktop mode.

I agree that Microsoft should have allowed two versions of the of the OS and with a choice of GUI's. Fast food chains and tablet makers can shoose Metro while people working for a living can choose the classic shell. The problem is while this is good for users it cuts into MS's potential profit stream.

What MS doesn't appear to get is that the the only reason a majority of Windows users use their software like MS Word, Excel and Internet Explorer, and use other 3rd party software is because they were/are running the Windows OS.

  • MS Word was not better than Word Perfect.
  • MS Excel was not better than Lotus 123.
  • MS Internet Explorer was not better than Network Navigator.

Running the Windows OS was the main reason why windows users migrated to the MS application software and used 3rd party windows software.  If folks start dumping Windows for other OS', they will not have a reason to continue their loyalty to MS application software, nor other 3rd party software written for windows.

So while MS "might" make some money with their software store now, they will eventually lose their dominance of the OS market and the revenues associated with a dominant OS.

My $.02,
Sky

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Osvaldo Cristo
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It is the only and fair game to customer
In reply to skyglider, Mar 30, 2013

It is the only and fair game to customer: let them to decide.

I prefer Windows 7 and I am sad the computers manufacturers were all into the Microsoft bandwagon to demand all customers use Win 8.

A good news in the Windows world, at last.

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CameraCarl
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Re: It is the only and fair game to customer
In reply to Osvaldo Cristo, Mar 30, 2013

I bought a new PC shortly after Vista came out and had so much trouble running Photoshop that I returned the computer to Dell and bought a Mac.  My 5 years of Mac experience has not been that good -- multiple repairs, intermittent crashes that no one at Apple could diagnose or fix -- so I started shopping for another PC.  Then Windows 8 came out and my shopping stopped. Now I'm in limbo waiting for Windows 9 or ... whatever.

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1w12q312qw1
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Blue is the word
In reply to CameraCarl, Mar 30, 2013

CameraCarl wrote:

I bought a new PC shortly after Vista came out and had so much trouble running Photoshop that I returned the computer to Dell and bought a Mac.  My 5 years of Mac experience has not been that good -- multiple repairs, intermittent crashes that no one at Apple could diagnose or fix -- so I started shopping for another PC.  Then Windows 8 came out and my shopping stopped. Now I'm in limbo waiting for Windows 9 or ... whatever.

Windows 9 = Blue (circular firing squad in Redmond):

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9237892/Windows_Blue_shows_desktop_s_days_are_numbered?taxonomyId=77

Stan

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skyglider
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Re: It is the only and fair game to customer
In reply to CameraCarl, Mar 30, 2013

CameraCarl wrote:

I bought a new PC shortly after Vista came out and had so much trouble running Photoshop that I returned the computer to Dell and bought a Mac.  My 5 years of Mac experience has not been that good -- multiple repairs, intermittent crashes that no one at Apple could diagnose or fix -- so I started shopping for another PC.  Then Windows 8 came out and my shopping stopped. Now I'm in limbo waiting for Windows 9 or ... whatever.

Can't understand why you had so much trouble running Photoshop on Vista.  I ran Photoshop 7 on my Vista laptop for a few years without any problems at all.  I also run PS7 on Win7 and Win8 with no problems at all.

You can buy Win8 and

  • Install the free Classic Shell.
  • Set Classic Shell to boot directly into the desktop.
  • Set Classic Shell to disable active corners. (to stop Win8 popups)
  • Don't run any Win8 apps at all. (since they will pop you back to Win8's UI)
  • Install apps designed for Win7 and below and use them.

I've done that on my laptop and it works like my Win7 tower with no problems.  (Except that I had to replace Win8's wireless driver with the Dell wireless driver to get full speed.)  I'm convinced that Win8 is really Win7 written with tighter code, with the Metro UI added and the desktop start menu removed.

Sky

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Glen Barrington
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I'm investigating the possibility that Linux might be an answer. . .
In reply to CameraCarl, Mar 30, 2013

I'm still running dual boot with Win 7 and Unbutu Linux, still looking for glitches.  Unbutu was pretty easy to install, and as the foundation for a digital darkroom, I'd say, so far, it seems like a do-able option, though not perfect.

I've looked at Raw Therapee as a replacement for Lightroom and I'd say it's almost there.  The raw development is pretty good but I'm less thrilled with its functions as a photo management tool.  It could use some improvement.  FWIW, it opens Lr produced DNG files.  It wouldn't appear to require much 'tweaking' to make it a serious competitor for Lr, but of course, I haven't done any analysis on something like that.  At this point, I've done some Raw development and simple file management.  I have yet to do any evaluation as a presentation product (In truth, I haven't even looked at that functionality, or even if it is there, as yet.)

Gimp. . . is usable.  I still don't like its UI.  As near as I can tell, it appears to be the only editor aimed at the 'serious' photographer, but the need for a different editor will be minimized if a decent  workflow product appears.  Raw Therapee could turn into one with a little additional developmental effort I think, and there is anther I've heard some good things about called "DarkTable", I believe.  I haven't explored that product yet.

Also yet to explore is WINE, a windows emulator.  I've heard that even Lr will run under wine and most Linux distros, but my experience with emulators has not been good, but that was 20+ years or so ago.  But if I can get what I need that way with reasonable performance  I'd certainly consider it.

At this point Microsoft seems almost suicidal to me.  I can't believe the major photo software vendors aren't at least investigating the possibility of producing Linux versions of their poplular titles, if for no other options than to hedge their bets.  After all I don't think anyone has made a strong argument that a touch UI actually improves a digital darkroom.

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Archer66
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Re: I'm investigating the possibility that Linux might be an answer. . .
In reply to Glen Barrington, Mar 31, 2013

Glen Barrington wrote:

I can't believe the major photo software vendors aren't at least investigating the possibility of producing Linux versions of their poplular titles

Why would they bother when Linux has 1% market share on desktop and since when Linux users have paid for software ?

Won't happen.

After all I don't think anyone has made a strong argument that a touch UI actually improves a digital darkroom.

You do know that Win 8 has normal desktop ?

Touchpads are getting more popular everyday so I'm not writing them off.

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CameraCarl
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Re: It is the only and fair game to customer
In reply to skyglider, Mar 31, 2013

Skyglider, you indirectly support my frustration with Windows 8. You say all you have to do is the six different things below once you spend thousands of dollars on a computer to make it work like Windows 7 used to.

  • Install the free Classic Shell.
  • Set Classic Shell to boot directly into the desktop.
  • Set Classic Shell to disable active corners. (to stop Win8 popups)
  • Don't run any Win8 apps at all. (since they will pop you back to Win8's UI)
  • Install apps designed for Win7 and below and use them.
  • replace Win8's wireless driver with the Dell wireless driver to get full speed.

Too bad I can't just buy a Windows 7 machine and skip all the hassle.

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Archer66
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Re: It is the only and fair game to customer
In reply to CameraCarl, Mar 31, 2013

CameraCarl wrote:

Skyglider, you indirectly support my frustration with Windows 8. You say all you have to do is the six different things below once you spend thousands of dollars on a computer to make it work like Windows 7 used to.

  • Install the free Classic Shell.
  • Set Classic Shell to boot directly into the desktop.
  • Set Classic Shell to disable active corners. (to stop Win8 popups)
  • Don't run any Win8 apps at all. (since they will pop you back to Win8's UI)
  • Install apps designed for Win7 and below and use them.
  • replace Win8's wireless driver with the Dell wireless driver to get full speed.

Too bad I can't just buy a Windows 7 machine and skip all the hassle.

Of course you could be also be standing on your head and close your eyes to make it little more difficult.

Or just click on a tile or press a key.

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Sean Nelson
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Re: I'm investigating the possibility that Linux might be an answer. . .
In reply to Archer66, Mar 31, 2013

Archer66 wrote:

Touchpads are getting more popular everyday so I'm not writing them off.

Touchpads are the obvious choice for a mobile computer where you don't want the hassle of an external device like a mouse or keyboard you need to drag around with you.   And the mobile market is going through a huge expansion right now, so it's an obvious target for Windows 8.

The problem is that not every computer is a mobile device, and systems with large screens and a keyboard for bulk text entry are horrible to use with a touch interface.   Windows 8 is trying its best to ignore that market, much to the chagrin of its users.

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Leon Obers
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Re: no, it's not, and I'm sick of saying it
In reply to Scott Eaton, Mar 31, 2013

Scott Eaton wrote:

You get forced into the Metro interface for all kinds of things including clicking on media files, mailto links, and other common tasks. The Metro wizards are also very difficult to get out of,

Strange, I never come into Metro screen if I don't choose it myself.
Maybe also has to do that I don't support Microsoft applications for years than only needed.
- Internet browser ---> Firefox
- mail ---> Thunderbird
- image viewers, just the old fashioned third party, no Metro programs
- Firewall ---> Comodo
- PDF reader ---> Adobe
The only real Microsoft software outside the OS itself what I do use is Microsoft Word + Excel (2010 version).

When I installed Win8, all kinds of external control I de-activated.
No cloud, no account and all that stuff.

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