Can the X20 be saved? :-)

Started Mar 28, 2013 | Discussions
2eyesee
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Re: Can the X20 be saved? :-)
In reply to FrancoisXavier C, Apr 6, 2013

FrancoisXavier C wrote:

tron555 wrote:

Check the subject line “Can the X20 be saved?” :/ $599 vs 549

And, if you really need a viewfinder (tazmac)

http://www.amazon.com/Olympus-VF-3-Electronic-Viewfinder-Silver/dp/B005FQSXFI/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1365280192&sr=8-2&keywords=olympus+pen+e-pl5+viewfinder

It also flips up, which is very nice, don’t think the X20 does that.

$549 is for body only, innit ? How much would a 28-112mm f 2.0-2.8 cost ?

The f/2.0-2.8 lens on the X20 is really equivalent to f/4.0-5.6 in micro four thirds terms.

A micro four thirds sensor is around 4x the size of the X20 sensor, so it collects around 4x the amount of light - or 2 more stops - which is equivalent to f/4.0-5.6 in micro four thirds terms. The 14-42mm kit lens (28-84mm equivalent) is f/3.5-5.6 - not quite as much reach as the X20 but a bit faster at the wide end.

So it's reasonable to make a direct comparison of the E-PL5 with kit lens to the X20.

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2eyesee
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Re: Can the X20 be saved? :-)
In reply to Grobb, Apr 6, 2013

tron555 wrote:

It will need the Army, Navy, Navy Seals, Special Forces, Marines, United Nations, at this point.

Actually, a better sensor and processor would do wonders for it. Right now, the Olympus Pen E-PL5 seems to have it beat by a mile or light year. Scroll half way down this page:

http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Publications/DxOMark-Reviews/Olympus-Pen-E-PL5-Qualities-of-the-OM-D-E-M5/Comparisons

They don’t have the X20 rating yet, but it will be pretty close to the X10, if not worse. When you figure the E-PL5 cost less, has a better/more efficient sensor that is twice as big and takes MUCH better/sharper images, it’s a much better bang for the buck camera. You can put all kinds of lenses on it for any occasion, if you so desire. Also, the AF and FPS are much faster, video is better and that touch screen makes it a pretty nice package. This information is for people thinking twice about the X20's IQ or if it's not living up to all your expectations and you still have time to return itbefore it's too late

PS, the JPEG's from this camera come out very sharp and clear without any smearing or water colors very easily and very little post processing.

Interesting you should mention the E-PL5. That was the call I made a few weeks ago after waiting to see what the X20 delivered - to go with the E-PL5.

I have to correct you on one of your facts though - a micro four thirds sensor (17.3 x 13mm = 224.9 sqr mm) is around four times the size of the X20 sensor (8.8 x 6.6mm = 58 sqr mm).

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Grobb
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Re: Can the X20 be saved? :-)
In reply to 2eyesee, Apr 7, 2013

Thank you for correcting me when I said the sensor on the E-PL5 was twice the size of the X20, your right; it is FOUR times the size, my mistake. What I meant to say was that the Image Quality of the E-PL5 was twice as good as the X20, for the same price. The camera may not look quite as nice, but the images it takes are one hell of a lot better in both RAW and especially JPEG. I guess I would rather my pictures look better than my camera, IMHO that is what should ultimately really matter!

As a matter of fact, I am planning on selling my trusty old Canon G12 and getting the E-PL5 as soon as I do, since it is the best bang for the buck camera with the best IQ at that price, at this time.

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DS21
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Re: Can the X20 be saved? :-)
In reply to Grobb, Apr 7, 2013

Thank you for correcting me when I said the sensor on the E-PL5 was twice the size of the X20, your right; it is FOUR times the size, my mistake. What I meant to say was that the Image Quality of the E-PL5 was twice as good as the X20, for the same price. The camera may not look quite as nice, but the images it takes are one hell of a lot better in both RAW and especially JPEG. I guess I would rather my pictures look better than my camera, IMHO that is what should ultimately really matter!

As a matter of fact, I am planning on selling my trusty old Canon G12 and getting the E-PL5 as soon as I do, since it is the best bang for the buck camera with the best IQ at that price, at this time.

What about Pentax K-01, isn't that the best bang for the bucks in IQ... but it is bigger, of course.

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jimr
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For Large Sensor Bargains Add The Sony NEX 3N At
In reply to DS21, Apr 7, 2013

MSRP $499 with the kit zoom and the Oly EPM2 at about the n same price.

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HL48
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Re: Can the X20 be saved? :-)
In reply to 2eyesee, Apr 7, 2013

2eyesee wrote:

Interesting you [tron555] should mention the E-PL5. That was the call I made a few weeks ago after waiting to see what the X20 delivered - to go with the E-PL5.

I think I'm pulling the trigger tomorrow on the E-PL5. I hope I can learn to work with the touch screen & super menu. I'll take one last look for reviews before I decide. Ralfs-foto-bude.de has a very favorable review video of the x20 in English. But his website is only in German. (Google translate is helpful if you already know some German.) He finds some improvement in IQ at low ISO over the X20 but not the great improvement that was anticipated.

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FrancoisXavier C
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Re: Can the X20 be saved? :-)
In reply to Nukunukoo, Apr 7, 2013

Nukunukoo wrote:

FrancoisXavier C wrote:

tron555 wrote:

Check the subject line “Can the X20 be saved?” :/ $599 vs 549

And, if you really need a viewfinder (tazmac)

http://www.amazon.com/Olympus-VF-3-Electronic-Viewfinder-Silver/dp/B005FQSXFI/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1365280192&sr=8-2&keywords=olympus+pen+e-pl5+viewfinder

It also flips up, which is very nice, don’t think the X20 does that.

$549 is for body only, innit ? How much would a 28-112mm f 2.0-2.8 cost ?

-- hide signature --

"I was shooting in Av mode and I swear I have done panorama modes that way before." - rattymouse

I know. But it's best not to dignify that irrelevant post with a reply.

Liz.

Well, actually, I found on Amazon the body+lens kit for $549 :

http://www.amazon.com/Olympus-Interchangeable-Digital-Camera-14-42mm/dp/B0096WDMGC/ref=pd_sim_p_5/176-0206280-8554315

One still has to buy an extra lens to match the X10/X20 reach.

This 120mm eq. for instance :

http://www.amazon.com/Olympus-MSC-60mm-2-8-Lens/dp/B0096WDK0K/ref=pd_sim_p_15

$499.99 though ...

-- hide signature --

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FrancoisXavier C
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Re: Can the X20 be saved? :-)
In reply to Grobb, Apr 7, 2013

tron555 wrote:

Thank you for correcting me when I said the sensor on the E-PL5 was twice the size of the X20, your right; it is FOUR times the size, my mistake. What I meant to say was that the Image Quality of the E-PL5 was twice as good as the X20, for the same price. The camera may not look quite as nice, but the images it takes are one hell of a lot better in both RAW and especially JPEG. I guess I would rather my pictures look better than my camera, IMHO that is what should ultimately really matter!

As a matter of fact, I am planning on selling my trusty old Canon G12 and getting the E-PL5 as soon as I do, since it is the best bang for the buck camera with the best IQ at that price, at this time.

I think I'm gonna keep my X10 : it seems to retain highlight details better than the Olympus ...

X10/EPL5

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HL48
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Re: Can the X20 be saved? :-)
In reply to Nukunukoo, Apr 7, 2013

Nukunukoo wrote:

These are two different cameras with two different niches and form factors with each having their strength and weaknesses. They can be both configured to Lord knows how many more variables and all you people discuss is price?

... I'm sorry if I may sound lame, but I am so discouraged in this forum and I was expecting a higher standard of exchange but alas...

People have different wants. If you don't respect that, then please, go someplace else.

Liz

Please don't take anything here too seriously.

I bought a Canon S100 last year. I love the workmanship and I never look at the pixels of pictures I take. But compact as it is, it still stays home most of the time.  It never became that extension of myself that I want my camera to be. It just has me diving through too many menus to allow me to focus on the image I want to capture. A camera that works for you is a very personal thing. Sometimes people take personal things -- well too personally.

The most fun I had with photography was with a Canonet (around 1970). It had an analog meter needle visible in the rangefinder optics that indicated the f-stop. When you pressed the shutter release, a mechanism would trap the meter needle and use it to activate the diaphragm. I could compose, focus and shoot within a second or two. Much more fluid than with any camera I've used since. I can't tell you how excited I was when I heard about the Fuji X20 with shooting information again being visible in the finder window.

Harry

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toto435
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Re: Can the X20 be saved? :-)
In reply to HL48, Apr 7, 2013

HL48 wrote:

toto435 wrote:

toto435 wrote:

It is more 549€ vs 629€...

I precise : 549 for X20 and 629 for the E-PL5 of course.

B&H has them both at $599 +/- pennies. That includes the 14-42 on the E-PL5.

I don't know if you saw it, but I speak in €€€... Why will I buy a camera from N-Y when I live in Europe, Belgium ? To pay extra taxes ?

So, in here, the very best prices i could found : X20 = 529€ and E-PL5 = 580€ (with a shorter 14-42mm).

Difference = 51€, the price of an excellent SD card + an UV Filter...

But the problem is not there. If you can put 520€ in a camera, you can go for 580...

For me, I will never buy the E-PL5 for ONE unique reason. Size. The body is small, but with the lenses, you have a thickness of what ? ~10 cm ?!

For ~600€, I can also have a Sony Alpha 35, a Canon EOS-650d, ect... But I will never look for that. Too big...

We want a compact camera ! Stop comparing cameras that are not "real" rivals...

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Danielepaolo
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Re: Can the X20 be saved? :-)
In reply to FrancoisXavier C, Apr 7, 2013

FrancoisXavier C wrote:

I think I'm gonna keep my X10 : it seems to retain highlight details better than the Olympus ...

If you believe that then you both deserve each other.

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Apologies if my lack of photographic knowledge is catching.

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2eyesee
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Re: Can the X20 be saved? :-)
In reply to FrancoisXavier C, Apr 7, 2013

FrancoisXavier C wrote:

I think I'm gonna keep my X10 : it seems to retain highlight details better than the Olympus ...

X10/EPL5

Well I've just had a look at the Imaging Resource Comparometer and what I see shows a different story. Here's a 100% crop of the white rose:

These are the standard Imaging Resource studio shots available on the Comparometer. I don't know if you got yours elsewhere or simply got them mixed up, but this shows the E-PL5 retaining much better highlight detail than the X10, the reverse of what your comparison shows.

This would be expected - DXO rates the E-PL5 a full 1 stop more dynamic range than the X10 (12.3 vs 11.3).

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FrancoisXavier C
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Re: Can the X20 be saved? :-)
In reply to 2eyesee, Apr 7, 2013

I don't know if you got yours elsewhere or simply got them mixed up, ...

Hmm, it seems you're not familiar with the X10 settings. Hint : DR400

Thou Hast Eyes, But See, Not ...

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FrancoisXavier C
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Re: Can the X20 be saved? :-)
In reply to Danielepaolo, Apr 7, 2013

Danielepaolo wrote:

FrancoisXavier C wrote:

I think I'm gonna keep my X10 : it seems to retain highlight details better than the Olympus ...

If you believe that then you both deserve each other.

-- hide signature --

Apologies if my lack of photographic knowledge is catching.

Read my lips : V-A-F-F-A ...

-- hide signature --

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2eyesee
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Re: Can the X20 be saved? :-)
In reply to toto435, Apr 7, 2013

toto435 wrote:

For me, I will never buy the E-PL5 for ONE unique reason. Size. The body is small, but with the lenses, you have a thickness of what ? ~10 cm ?!

For ~600€, I can also have a Sony Alpha 35, a Canon EOS-650d, ect... But I will never look for that. Too big...

We want a compact camera ! Stop comparing cameras that are not "real" rivals...

Well there are at least 3 people on this thread (myself included) who have compared these 2 cameras as a purchasing consideration who would disagree with you.

All cameras are a matter of compromise, and size is only one of the factors one considers when selecting a camera.

The X10/X20 aren't exactly pocketable, so for me when I considered that with the E-PL5 I would just be carrying around a camera in a slightly bigger bag it wasn't a significant factor.

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Danielepaolo
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Re: Can the X20 be saved? :-)
In reply to FrancoisXavier C, Apr 7, 2013

FrancoisXavier C wrote:

Danielepaolo wrote:

FrancoisXavier C wrote:

I think I'm gonna keep my X10 : it seems to retain highlight details better than the Olympus ...

If you believe that then you both deserve each other.

-- hide signature --

Apologies if my lack of photographic knowledge is catching.

Read my lips : V-A-F-F-A ...

Perhaps you would like to fully enunciate that.

-- hide signature --

Apologies if my lack of photographic knowledge is catching.

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toto435
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Re: Can the X20 be saved? :-)
In reply to 2eyesee, Apr 7, 2013
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Danielepaolo
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Re: Can the X20 be saved? :-)
In reply to 2eyesee, Apr 7, 2013

2eyesee wrote:

Well there are at least 3 people on this thread (myself included) who have compared these 2 cameras as a purchasing consideration who would disagree with you.

All cameras are a matter of compromise, and size is only one of the factors one considers when selecting a camera.

The X10/X20 aren't exactly pocketable, so for me when I considered that with the E-PL5 I would just be carrying around a camera in a slightly bigger bag it wasn't a significant factor.

IMO I think it is a bit harsh to compare the X20 with the EPL5 considering how long each has been on the market and the type of camera they are. I understand the comparison being made and it is hard looking past what some of these m4/3 cameras offer.

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2eyesee
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Re: Can the X20 be saved? :-)
In reply to FrancoisXavier C, Apr 7, 2013

FrancoisXavier C wrote:

I don't know if you got yours elsewhere or simply got them mixed up, ...

Hmm, it seems you're not familiar with the X10 settings. Hint : DR400

Thou Hast Eyes, But See, Not ...

Ok, you were comparing DR400 on the X10. This does a good job at preserving highlights, but at what cost? To use Imaging Resources own words: "If you look closely at the full resolution images or the crops, you'll see that highlight retention comes at a cost of increased noise in the shadows":

The E-PL5 photo was taken at +0.7EV - it seems a little over-exposed. If it was taken at normal exposure or even +0.3EV this would have preserved more highlight detail. You could also have just lifted the shadows in post and ended up with a much better result than the X10.

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Nukunukoo
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Re: Can the X20 be saved? :-)
In reply to DS21, Apr 7, 2013

DS21 wrote:

Thank you for correcting me when I said the sensor on the E-PL5 was twice the size of the X20, your right; it is FOUR times the size, my mistake. What I meant to say was that the Image Quality of the E-PL5 was twice as good as the X20, for the same price. The camera may not look quite as nice, but the images it takes are one hell of a lot better in both RAW and especially JPEG. I guess I would rather my pictures look better than my camera, IMHO that is what should ultimately really matter!

As a matter of fact, I am planning on selling my trusty old Canon G12 and getting the E-PL5 as soon as I do, since it is the best bang for the buck camera with the best IQ at that price, at this time.

What about Pentax K-01, isn't that the best bang for the bucks in IQ... but it is bigger, of course.

??? It's much bigger. Tested one in Germany. Extremely mediocre focusing in the afternoon test street shots (which I did myself). You need wasted seconds to compose a good one. To its merit, the JPEG shots are great, not just good, it's great. But as a street and improv cam, it's not. It's sluggishness is not even advisable if you use it as a tourist. If you have this camera, just prepare a few seconds while the rest of the group continues walking while you take those shots.

Also, it does not feel balanced at all with the kit lens. With my average-sized pair of hands, the boxy feel while cradling the lens is uncomfortable at best. Of course YMMV. IQ is comparatively good (APS-C, duuuh).

Hope that helps.

Oh wait, we're just talking price here...

Liz

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