Can the X20 be saved? :-)

Started Mar 28, 2013 | Discussions
DS21
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Re: Can the X20 be saved? :-)
In reply to Nukunukoo, Apr 5, 2013

Also to be charitable, I will not talk about the delusions some forum members seem to have, and get upset when all forum members don't share their delusions.

I may be wrong, but two or maybe three posters don't represent "all" in this forum.

Yes, some are upset if ALL forum members don't like X20, for them even two or three disenters are too much. That's how all back and forth arguments start here, some like uniform forum state of mind for all.

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nradd
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Re: Can the X20 be saved? :-)
In reply to lensez, Apr 5, 2013

lensez wrote:

nradd wrote:

here's an example of what the x20 jpeg has difficulty with. the cat's fur for some reason is always kicking in too much noise reduction and looks smeary, losing detail as well as

contrast creating harsh edges making the shape/form a bit flat

the room had very low light when picture was taken

jpg   obviously the contrast is pumped and nr applied. just seems to go a bit far

raw   more detail revealed overall more realistic and you have the option to adjust any bit you like. probably have a preset amount of saturation contrast etc applied while importing or just adjust one copy paste to the rest. raw give you the Powah!

These two photos are meaningless as examples because they are taken at 1/50 sec. which is not enough to stop subject motion.  Get better results at 1/250 or faster.

-- hide signature --

Gary K

how are they meaningless if these are the settings the camera chooses for itself?

this was shot using the cameras auto mode. is there a way to to force shutter speed in auto mode? of course not.

so are you saying the auto modes in this camera=meaningless? these weren't even the worst examples

at the very least you can judge the decisions the camera is making for it's jpeg rendering which is consistently being flummoxed with low contrast subjects in low light situations.

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2eyesee
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Re: I adore my X20
In reply to Lmendy, Apr 5, 2013

Lmendy wrote:

I also have the Sony X100, which has slightly better native image quality, but is not nearly as intuitive a camera or nearly as fun to shoot as the X20.

After my first experience with the X20, I reduced NR to -2 and raised sharpness to +1.  I have no problem with auto WB and everything looks fine so far.  I let the camera pick the af point in single, but if I do not like what it picks, I move the camera and this seems to be best for accuracy.

The above image shows awful noise noise at ISO320. Much of the image does look out of focus, but that does explain the noise and the foreground area in the 100% crop below does look in focus - just terribly noisy:

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2eyesee
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Re: Can the X20 be saved? :-)
In reply to nradd, Apr 5, 2013

nradd wrote:

lensez wrote:

nradd wrote:

here's an example of what the x20 jpeg has difficulty with. the cat's fur for some reason is always kicking in too much noise reduction and looks smeary, losing detail as well as

contrast creating harsh edges making the shape/form a bit flat

the room had very low light when picture was taken

jpg   obviously the contrast is pumped and nr applied. just seems to go a bit far

raw   more detail revealed overall more realistic and you have the option to adjust any bit you like. probably have a preset amount of saturation contrast etc applied while importing or just adjust one copy paste to the rest. raw give you the Powah!

These two photos are meaningless as examples because they are taken at 1/50 sec. which is not enough to stop subject motion.  Get better results at 1/250 or faster.

-- hide signature --

Gary K

how are they meaningless if these are the settings the camera chooses for itself?

this was shot using the cameras auto mode. is there a way to to force shutter speed in auto mode? of course not.

so are you saying the auto modes in this camera=meaningless? these weren't even the worst examples

at the very least you can judge the decisions the camera is making for it's jpeg rendering which is consistently being flummoxed with low contrast subjects in low light situations.

I understand the point you are making and have seen plenty of examples myself, but I would recommend taking another photo when your cat is asleep so you don't introduce motion blur into the mix.

Also, please upload at full-resolution allow viewing of the original size.

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Viramati
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Re: Can the X20 be saved? :-)
In reply to tomhongkong, Apr 5, 2013

Got mine yesterday and in many ways it is a great camera. But thank god I am a RAW shooter as the jpegs are awful at anything above iso 400 (all is slightly better if you set sharpening and NR to the minimum). I traded this in for my X100 as I am waiting for the new leica M and wanted a good P&S camera and after reading the reviews and trying it out in store I really like the way it handled. The RAW images are very good but why the jpegs are so bad at high iso I really can't figure out. Luckily I can set up some presets in Lr 4.4 to deal with the issues. For a camera that is mean't to have great out of camera jpegs this is very disapointing

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nradd
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Re: Can the X20 be saved? :-)
In reply to 2eyesee, Apr 5, 2013

not quite asleep but not moving

still very low light

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Nukunukoo
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Re: Can the X20 be saved? :-)
In reply to DS21, Apr 5, 2013

DS21 wrote:

Also to be charitable, I will not talk about the delusions some forum members seem to have, and get upset when all forum members don't share their delusions.

I may be wrong, but two or maybe three posters don't represent "all" in this forum.

Yes, some are upset if ALL forum members don't like X20, for them even two or three disenters are too much. That's how all back and forth arguments start here, some like uniform forum state of mind for all.

I'm sorry but your reply is obtuse. "when all" is not equivalent to "if all"... I'm not even being pedantic. Your explanation is esotherical at best, if not even close to subjective.

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Nukunukoo
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Re: I adore my X20
In reply to 2eyesee, Apr 5, 2013

2eyesee wrote:

Lmendy wrote:

I also have the Sony X100, which has slightly better native image quality, but is not nearly as intuitive a camera or nearly as fun to shoot as the X20.

After my first experience with the X20, I reduced NR to -2 and raised sharpness to +1.  I have no problem with auto WB and everything looks fine so far.  I let the camera pick the af point in single, but if I do not like what it picks, I move the camera and this seems to be best for accuracy.

The above image shows awful noise noise at ISO320. Much of the image does look out of focus, but that does explain the noise and the foreground area in the 100% crop below does look in focus - just terribly noisy:

I agree. At pixel-level, the in-camera sharpening messes up the otherwise good shot. While this is not uncommon to small sensor cams, the JPEG render here is quite lower than average.

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lensez
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Re: Can the X20 be saved? :-)
In reply to nradd, Apr 5, 2013

nradd wrote:

lensez wrote:

nradd wrote:

here's an example of what the x20 jpeg has difficulty with. the cat's fur for some reason is always kicking in too much noise reduction and looks smeary, losing detail as well as

contrast creating harsh edges making the shape/form a bit flat

the room had very low light when picture was taken

jpg   obviously the contrast is pumped and nr applied. just seems to go a bit far

raw   more detail revealed overall more realistic and you have the option to adjust any bit you like. probably have a preset amount of saturation contrast etc applied while importing or just adjust one copy paste to the rest. raw give you the Powah!

These two photos are meaningless as examples because they are taken at 1/50 sec. which is not enough to stop subject motion.  Get better results at 1/250 or faster.

-- hide signature --

Gary K

how are they meaningless if these are the settings the camera chooses for itself?

The camera doesn't know you are photographing your pet, which moves.  It is simply exposing the picture correctly for the light situation in the room.

this was shot using the cameras auto mode. is there a way to to force shutter speed in auto mode? of course not.

so are you saying the auto modes in this camera=meaningless? these weren't even the worst examples

Yes, the photos are meaningless in the context of the original post, "Can the X20 be saved?"  These are not examples of some sort of deficiency in the X20.  Taken at this shutter speed any camera would show blurring in the fur, due to subject motion.

at the very least you can judge the decisions the camera is making for it's jpeg rendering which is consistently being flummoxed with low contrast subjects in low light situations.

This photo at this ISO required 1/50 second at F/2.0.  Lucky the X20 has such a nice fast lens.  Most P&S cameras don't go down to F/2.0.  The picture would have been even worse at F2.8 which is the lowest setting on many zoom lenses.

You are saying that the camera is responsible for the poor picture.  But the poor quality of these pictures is due to low light, which required a slow shutter speed.  It appears you didn't use the flash, which would automatically be accompanied by a fast shutter speed.

These photos do not support an argument that the X20 somehow needs to be "saved."

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Gary K

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BobbyTee
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Re: Can the X20 be saved? :-)
In reply to Viramati, Apr 5, 2013

Viramati,

Would you please share the LR 4.4 settings that are working for you?

Thanks

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2eyesee
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Re: Can the X20 be saved? :-)
In reply to nradd, Apr 6, 2013

nradd wrote:

not quite asleep but not moving

still very low light

You can definitely see much more fine hair detail in the RAW image. This is all smeared in the JPG. Even though you haven't labelled which is which it's clear when you look at 100%.

You would be better to go no higher than ISO 400 though - like your first images. ISO 1600 is expecting a bit much from a small sensor and so much noise is introduced. Obviously the light level was very low this time as your shutter speed is slower too.

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nradd
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Re: Can the X20 be saved? :-)
In reply to lensez, Apr 6, 2013

lensez wrote:

nradd wrote:

lensez wrote:

nradd wrote:

here's an example of what the x20 jpeg has difficulty with. the cat's fur for some reason is always kicking in too much noise reduction and looks smeary, losing detail as well as

contrast creating harsh edges making the shape/form a bit flat

the room had very low light when picture was taken

jpg   obviously the contrast is pumped and nr applied. just seems to go a bit far

raw   more detail revealed overall more realistic and you have the option to adjust any bit you like. probably have a preset amount of saturation contrast etc applied while importing or just adjust one copy paste to the rest. raw give you the Powah!

These two photos are meaningless as examples because they are taken at 1/50 sec. which is not enough to stop subject motion.  Get better results at 1/250 or faster.

-- hide signature --

Gary K

how are they meaningless if these are the settings the camera chooses for itself?

The camera doesn't know you are photographing your pet, which moves.  It is simply exposing the picture correctly for the light situation in the room.

this was shot using the cameras auto mode. is there a way to to force shutter speed in auto mode? of course not.

so are you saying the auto modes in this camera=meaningless? these weren't even the worst examples

Yes, the photos are meaningless in the context of the original post, "Can the X20 be saved?"  These are not examples of some sort of deficiency in the X20.  Taken at this shutter speed any camera would show blurring in the fur, due to subject motion.

at the very least you can judge the decisions the camera is making for it's jpeg rendering which is consistently being flummoxed with low contrast subjects in low light situations.

This photo at this ISO required 1/50 second at F/2.0.  Lucky the X20 has such a nice fast lens.  Most P&S cameras don't go down to F/2.0.  The picture would have been even worse at F2.8 which is the lowest setting on many zoom lenses.

You are saying that the camera is responsible for the poor picture.  But the poor quality of these pictures is due to low light, which required a slow shutter speed.  It appears you didn't use the flash, which would automatically be accompanied by a fast shutter speed.

These photos do not support an argument that the X20 somehow needs to be "saved."

-- hide signature --

Gary K

i see what you're saying. my main problem is not being able to dial down the smearing /nr that the cam does in any auto setting. i've been trying to modify my technique for auto mode. how many cameras currently on the market will apply as much NR to jpgs as this one currently does? that's what's "off" about this cam for me so far.

this camera being in the point and shoot category should cater to people who will shoot this way don't you think?

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nradd
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Re: Can the X20 be saved? :-)
In reply to jwrussell, Apr 6, 2013

jwrussell wrote:

Sorry to dive right in with the hyperbole.  At the same time it seems to fit in with a lot of what I'm reading here.  This is pretty amazing to me.  We have a brand new camera with a brand new sensor and although some people have had them for a few weeks most are just receiving them now.  And yet many are already writing the camera off as hopeless because of JPEG rendering,....

Jerry

i believe my posts were to address the jpeg rendering. it automatically applies too much NR to images tending to create a "watercolor effect".

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Tom Schum
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Re: Can the X20 be saved? :-)
In reply to jwrussell, Apr 6, 2013

Jerry,

I'm guessing you will end up disappointed with the X20 and you will be looking for a used X10.  I have an early production X10 in perfect condition with the original sensor, and since I now have a X-E1 I'll be happy to sell it to you.  Yes I really am a very nice guy.

The X10 turned out so well and mine was just perfect.  The colors, the ease of use, and the excellent JPGs out of camera really sold me on the Fuji mindset.

What I have seen so far from X20 sample shots is that even at ISO 100-200 in good light the noise is palpable.  Still I prefer it to the smoothness of the X10 because the finest details such as foliage (false detail or not) are clean in the X20 sample shots.  If I didn't already have an X-E1 I would be very interested in the X20.  I could do large prints with X20 images, but X10 struggles at sizes even as small as 13"x19".

Also from the X20 sample shots I've seen, the X20 might have just a hair less dynamic range than the X10, but this is not a big difference I think.  To some I am sure it really matters.

Anyway, I hope you enjoy your X20.  Even though I have a X-E1 I still find the X20 very tempting, and eagerly await the DPR review.

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Tom Schum
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Re: Can the X20 be saved? :-)
In reply to guzzibreva1, Apr 6, 2013

guzzibreva1 wrote:

Could it be that the phase detection pixels are preventing this camera from being what it could be in the IQ department? Maybe it is too much of a trade off to get the fast auto focus.

This is my biggest worry for the new generation.  All those phase detection pixels to interpolate out!

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Tom Schum

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Viramati
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Re: Can the X20 be saved? :-)
In reply to BobbyTee, Apr 6, 2013

BobbyTee wrote:

Viramati,

Would you please share the LR 4.4 settings that are working for you?

Thanks

I am still experimenting but so far in high iso jpegs I am setting NR and sharpening both to -2 and even so I'm not impressed when you compare the images to the RAW files and what Lr4.4 can achieve. I have to say that I don't really understand why this is happening as with my X100 though I found that I could get better results by shooting RAW the difference between the RAW and jpegs was not nearly as pronounced.I have posted some samples here and will do some more

http://www.fujix-forum.com/index.php/topic/8591-x20-and-high-iso/

I will post my Lr4.4 setting when I have finalised some presets

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lensez
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Re: Can the X20 be saved? :-)
In reply to nradd, Apr 6, 2013

nradd wrote:

lensez wrote:

nradd wrote:

lensez wrote:

nradd wrote:

here's an example of what the x20 jpeg has difficulty with. the cat's fur for some reason is always kicking in too much noise reduction and looks smeary, losing detail as well as

contrast creating harsh edges making the shape/form a bit flat

the room had very low light when picture was taken

jpg   obviously the contrast is pumped and nr applied. just seems to go a bit far

raw   more detail revealed overall more realistic and you have the option to adjust any bit you like. probably have a preset amount of saturation contrast etc applied while importing or just adjust one copy paste to the rest. raw give you the Powah!

These two photos are meaningless as examples because they are taken at 1/50 sec. which is not enough to stop subject motion.  Get better results at 1/250 or faster.

-- hide signature --

Gary K

how are they meaningless if these are the settings the camera chooses for itself?

The camera doesn't know you are photographing your pet, which moves.  It is simply exposing the picture correctly for the light situation in the room.

this was shot using the cameras auto mode. is there a way to to force shutter speed in auto mode? of course not.

so are you saying the auto modes in this camera=meaningless? these weren't even the worst examples

Yes, the photos are meaningless in the context of the original post, "Can the X20 be saved?"  These are not examples of some sort of deficiency in the X20.  Taken at this shutter speed any camera would show blurring in the fur, due to subject motion.

at the very least you can judge the decisions the camera is making for it's jpeg rendering which is consistently being flummoxed with low contrast subjects in low light situations.

This photo at this ISO required 1/50 second at F/2.0.  Lucky the X20 has such a nice fast lens.  Most P&S cameras don't go down to F/2.0.  The picture would have been even worse at F2.8 which is the lowest setting on many zoom lenses.

You are saying that the camera is responsible for the poor picture.  But the poor quality of these pictures is due to low light, which required a slow shutter speed.  It appears you didn't use the flash, which would automatically be accompanied by a fast shutter speed.

These photos do not support an argument that the X20 somehow needs to be "saved."

-- hide signature --

Gary K

i see what you're saying. my main problem is not being able to dial down the smearing /nr that the cam does in any auto setting. i've been trying to modify my technique for auto mode. how many cameras currently on the market will apply as much NR to jpgs as this one currently does? that's what's "off" about this cam for me so far.

this camera being in the point and shoot category should cater to people who will shoot this way don't you think?

That's a fair question.  The X10/X20 was designed to fill a niche at the top of the P&S market.  While it has competitors with larger sensors now, it still claims much of the enthusiast territory with its easily accessible controls, manual zoom, optical viewfinder, high quality Fujinon lens and retro look.  Lots of enthusiasts (like me) like to play around with the dials.   Fuji didn't design this to go head-on with other P&S cameras.

As for the smearing/noise reduction, I would suggest that Auto setting will work well outdoors in daylight as long as the subject isn't moving too fast.  For fast subjects consider "sport" mode.  For people consider "portrait" mode.  You can expect these will automate ISO, shutter speed and aperture well for their stated type of shots.  Taking shots in poor light indoors pushes any camera toward its limits, especially with difficult subjects, so Auto doesn't always work well for that.  Finally, you can also turn down noise reduction setting in the menu to eliminate smearing.

Gary K

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DS21
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Re: Can the X20 be saved? :-)
In reply to Nukunukoo, Apr 6, 2013

Nukunukoo wrote:

DS21 wrote:

Also to be charitable, I will not talk about the delusions some forum members seem to have, and get upset when all forum members don't share their delusions.

I may be wrong, but two or maybe three posters don't represent "all" in this forum.

Yes, some are upset if ALL forum members don't like X20, for them even two or three disenters are too much. That's how all back and forth arguments start here, some like uniform forum state of mind for all.

I'm sorry but your reply is obtuse. "when all" is not equivalent to "if all"... I'm not even being pedantic. Your explanation is esotherical at best, if not even close to subjective.

My explanation was obviously very good, otherwise there would be no "pedantic" reaction which proves I struck a nerve. A very sensitive one, it seems.

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nradd
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Re: Can the X20 be saved? :-)
In reply to lensez, Apr 6, 2013

As for the smearing/noise reduction, I would suggest that Auto setting will work well outdoors in daylight as long as the subject isn't moving too fast.  For fast subjects consider "sport" mode.  For people consider "portrait" mode.  You can expect these will automate ISO, shutter speed and aperture well for their stated type of shots.  Taking shots in poor light indoors pushes any camera toward its limits, especially with difficult subjects, so Auto doesn't always work well for that.  Finally, you can also turn down noise reduction setting in the menu to eliminate smearing.

Gary K

thanks so much for bearing with me. i'm really just getting to know this cam and my photo skills aren't too good but i'm willing to learn.

i kept experimenting with the settings available to me in auto mode and realized i could still set the white balance even though the cam is set to "auto" i finally got the brilliant idea that every photographer learned the first day in school which is to use a grey card to set the white balance. ha! you can basically set the white balance and affect exposure at the same time with by half pressing the shutter while pointing at the card (which you can angle to be brighter or darker in front of the lens to affect exposure)  brilliant!

this improved the results a lot but not only that, i changed the film simulations setting from "standard" to "pro neg/ Hi" and the smearing is GONE. Apparently provia/standard applies a lot of noise reduction to the during the jpeg rendering process

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Nukunukoo
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Re: Can the X20 be saved? :-)
In reply to DS21, Apr 6, 2013

DS21 wrote:

Nukunukoo wrote:

DS21 wrote:

Also to be charitable, I will not talk about the delusions some forum members seem to have, and get upset when all forum members don't share their delusions.

I may be wrong, but two or maybe three posters don't represent "all" in this forum.

Yes, some are upset if ALL forum members don't like X20, for them even two or three disenters are too much. That's how all back and forth arguments start here, some like uniform forum state of mind for all.

I'm sorry but your reply is obtuse. "when all" is not equivalent to "if all"... I'm not even being pedantic. Your explanation is esotherical at best, if not even close to subjective.

My explanation was obviously very good, otherwise there would be no "pedantic" reaction which proves I struck a nerve. A very sensitive one, it seems.

Not at all. It just raised confusion, antilogical confusion. I'm half Vulcan and half compulsive shopper. I must admit, I suck at confusion.

And "obviously" it is not, unless I was automagically shifted to an alternate forum, yes?

Besides:

IF <> WHEN
ALL <> SOME

You trying to explain they are equivalent in a conversation is amusing at best. But I don't think it applies to this forum when people actually post real content and user experiences and relevant exchange of useful information. Everyone's a critic, that's why it's the cheapest job of all. But not everyone is a reviewer...

Liz

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