Can the X20 be saved? :-)

Started Mar 28, 2013 | Discussions
jwrussell
New MemberPosts: 1
Like?
Can the X20 be saved? :-)
Mar 28, 2013

Sorry to dive right in with the hyperbole.  At the same time it seems to fit in with a lot of what I'm reading here.  This is pretty amazing to me.  We have a brand new camera with a brand new sensor and although some people have had them for a few weeks most are just receiving them now.  And yet many are already writing the camera off as hopeless because of JPEG rendering, AWB failures and unhappiness with the OVF?

Having survived the ORB hysteria with my X10 I think it's premature the start in on the X20 just yet.  Perhaps we should give some of these very talented people a chance to experiment with the multitude of settings to find the combinations that result in pleasing JPEG output.  Has anyone really mastered this camera after dozens or even a few hundred photos?  Maybe I'm just a slow learner but upon receiving even my Canon 1D I was initially disappointed with some of the images.  It took a lot of tinkering to *consistently* bring out the beautiful images the camera is capable of.

And maybe we should give the X20's AWB a chance in other settings.  Trying to duplicate a photo using cameras with two entirely different sensors is bound to cause anxiety.  Isn't it possible that if the AWB on the X20 is not up to X10 standards in some circumstances that it may surpass the X10 in other lighting situations?

And for those of us who learned to love the X10 optical viewfinder can the new one be anything but a step up--even if it's not the equal to your very excellent <name your brand>?

I must admit at this point that my X20 doesn't arrive until tomorrow.  I sold my X10 to a good friend several weeks ago because he needed an excellent little camera and I knew the X20 would be shipping soon.  I've spent the past few weeks wisely, buying a GX1 with 20mm f1.7, and an LX7, and have played with several others in the store.  This has resulted in the LX7 heading off to it's next owner and the GX1 boxed and ready to go.  Both are excellent cameras but both are reminders of why I love the X10 and hope to love the X20.  If I'm going to lugs lenses I'll lug Canon lenses with the 1D and if I can't have a viewfinder then my iPhone will do. 

So my vote is to give the X20 a month or two to get used to it and learn what settings it likes.  If I can't come to terms with all of the reported "issues" I'll sell it and buy a used X10 that will be flooding eBay about that time.

My very best regards to each of you.  This post is not intended to offend or provoke anyone and is probably written as much to calm myself as anything else.  This looks like my first post but I was in fact an early member--back when my main camera was a Canon D30--not to be mistaken for the 30D--the D30 was the original Canon DSLR with a whopping 3 MP.  I quit posting years ago but continue to lurk around the forums occasionally and *always* check first DPreview for its camera reviews.

Jerry

Canon EOS 30D Canon EOS D30 Canon EOS-1D Fujifilm X10 Fujifilm X20 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX1 Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX7
If you believe there are incorrect tags, please send us this post using our feedback form.
xchert
Regular MemberPosts: 185
Like?
Re: Can the X20 be saved? :-)
In reply to jwrussell, Mar 28, 2013

Allow me to be the first to reply to your first thread!  I received the X-20 from Adorama yesterday, and have rattled off about 250 photos and 5 videos so far.  The camera is a joy to use, and I now think that the reports of terrible JPGs have been terribly exaggerated.  Yes, I had to reduce the NR to its minimum value, -2, and I'm still not sure I can make it focus exactly where I want every time (although 75% of the time it's doing what I want there too) but I think the IQ is great.  Tonight I had the revelation of looking at the pics using my Macbook pros' retina display instead of the 24" external display I usually use.  Like night and day.  I urge others to try this if for some reason they haven't yet.  Great contrast and clarity, and the watercolor effects that seemed to be there due to the heavy handed NR are amazingly reduced.  Maybe this means that printing will also be better than what one might otherwise expect?  Anyway, enjoy your new camera and tell us how it goes.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
altair3
New MemberPosts: 20
Like?
Re: Can the X20 be saved? :-)
In reply to xchert, Mar 28, 2013

OP, welcome back. I'm also new here. Do give us an update once you have your X20 in your hands. I, for one, find the AWB of the X20 to be excellent in all but the most tricky of lighting situations.

xchert, you've set up your NR to -2, same here..but what about sharpness? I've set it to -2, the results are a wash, I can't give a verdict yet. And what format do you shoot in...JPEG fine or RAW+FINE or RAW only?

I've viewed my photos on my 27" iMac but the watercoloring are still quite visible

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
xchert
Regular MemberPosts: 185
Like?
Re: Can the X20 be saved? :-)
In reply to altair3, Mar 28, 2013

I have left sharpness at default for now.  I'd shot a few RAW+fine and then converted the RAW in camera.  The results looked very similar to the jpgs.  Maybe that's not surprising.  For now, I'm back to shooting straight jpg.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
horsth
Regular MemberPosts: 180Gear list
Like?
Re: Can the X20 be saved? :-)
In reply to jwrussell, Mar 28, 2013

The viewfinder has really improved. The focus indication shows now where in fact you have focused, allowing for the paralax-error. This is absolutely perfect and gives you the possibility to correct after the half press for the paralax failure that is inherent in any OVF-system. Absolutely super. This is for instance very easily accomplished, if you set in the learning phase the focus point allways to the middle position of the matrix.

I had the X10 and have now the X20. So I can simply make a comparision, since i still have the x10 images in my archive. The X20 plays in a different (higher) league. Lightroom(and other converters) can now develop the 12 MP raws and the IQ is superb up to 1600 ISO. Also 3200 ISO is not bad. For OOC-JPGs one must find just the prefered settings. The viewfinder is now really usable (see above comments), the lens correction in the wide position is good now. No compression anymore. There are a lot of further inprovements, which make the functionality and the handling better. The AF is lightening fast. So far there is only one small problem for me, if you switch to OVF only, it is not possible to have the quick review on the LCD after the shot. To be repaired with firmware. The white balance problem that is described somewhere, I can't see. So far it was always spot on. After all you have always the possibility to switch to manual-wb or to shoot Raw. Reviews which complain over the automatic pano-mode and a missing touchscreen i can't take really serious in fact. I have two other great cams with bigger sensors, but this mini-leica is what I prefer currently most of the time.

 horsth's gear list:horsth's gear list
Panasonic Lumix G Vario 45-200mm F4-5.6 OIS Fujifilm X20 Olympus E-M1 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH4 Panasonic Lumix G 20mm F1.7 ASPH +7 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
wymjym
Veteran MemberPosts: 5,311
Like?
Re: Can the X20 be saved? :-)
In reply to jwrussell, Mar 28, 2013

Jerry,

short and sweet.....I appreciate your well thought out posting, since you seem to be level headed I would appreciate hearing your thoughts @ x20 after you have used it for a while

wj

-- hide signature --

nikonfujicanonandricoh

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
mspahl
Contributing MemberPosts: 737Gear list
Like?
Re: Can the X20 be saved? :-)
In reply to jwrussell, Mar 28, 2013

Hello,

I am new to this forum and a new X20 - user (having had a X 100 for some time now, which I really enjoy!!).

I think, there is nothing really wrong with this cam`s jpegs, here are a few OOC-shots, I just made to test the cam:

Just my 2 cents

-- hide signature --

mspahl

 mspahl's gear list:mspahl's gear list
Canon PowerShot S95 Fujifilm FinePix X100 Fujifilm X20 Olympus PEN E-P1 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GF3 +16 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Natich
Forum MemberPosts: 61
Like?
Re: Can the X20 be saved? :-)
In reply to mspahl, Mar 28, 2013

The second image is stunning!

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Lightpath48
Senior MemberPosts: 2,240Gear list
Like?
Re: Can the X20 be saved? :-)
In reply to Natich, Mar 28, 2013

Agreed! No way I could get that kind of IQ from my X10 in those circumstances with those settings.

 Lightpath48's gear list:Lightpath48's gear list
Nikon D3300 Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 55-200mm f/4-5.6G VR Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 35mm f/1.8G Nikon AF-S DX Nikkor 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6G VR II
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
DS21
Senior MemberPosts: 1,640Gear list
Like?
Re: Can the X20 be saved? :-)
In reply to jwrussell, Mar 28, 2013

jwrussell wrote:

Sorry to dive right in with the hyperbole.  At the same time it seems to fit in with a lot of what I'm reading here.  This is pretty amazing to me.  We have a brand new camera with a brand new sensor and although some people have had them for a few weeks most are just receiving them now.  And yet many are already writing the camera off as hopeless because of JPEG rendering, AWB failures and unhappiness with the OVF?

Having survived the ORB hysteria with my X10 I think it's premature the start in on the X20 just yet.  Perhaps we should give some of these very talented people a chance to experiment with the multitude of settings to find the combinations that result in pleasing JPEG output.  Has anyone really mastered this camera after dozens or even a few hundred photos?  Maybe I'm just a slow learner but upon receiving even my Canon 1D I was initially disappointed with some of the images.  It took a lot of tinkering to *consistently* bring out the beautiful images the camera is capable of.

And maybe we should give the X20's AWB a chance in other settings.  Trying to duplicate a photo using cameras with two entirely different sensors is bound to cause anxiety.  Isn't it possible that if the AWB on the X20 is not up to X10 standards in some circumstances that it may surpass the X10 in other lighting situations?

And for those of us who learned to love the X10 optical viewfinder can the new one be anything but a step up--even if it's not the equal to your very excellent <name your brand>?

I must admit at this point that my X20 doesn't arrive until tomorrow.  I sold my X10 to a good friend several weeks ago because he needed an excellent little camera and I knew the X20 would be shipping soon.  I've spent the past few weeks wisely, buying a GX1 with 20mm f1.7, and an LX7, and have played with several others in the store.  This has resulted in the LX7 heading off to it's next owner and the GX1 boxed and ready to go.  Both are excellent cameras but both are reminders of why I love the X10 and hope to love the X20.  If I'm going to lugs lenses I'll lug Canon lenses with the 1D and if I can't have a viewfinder then my iPhone will do. 

So my vote is to give the X20 a month or two to get used to it and learn what settings it likes.  If I can't come to terms with all of the reported "issues" I'll sell it and buy a used X10 that will be flooding eBay about that time.

My very best regards to each of you.  This post is not intended to offend or provoke anyone and is probably written as much to calm myself as anything else.  This looks like my first post but I was in fact an early member--back when my main camera was a Canon D30--not to be mistaken for the 30D--the D30 was the original Canon DSLR with a whopping 3 MP.  I quit posting years ago but continue to lurk around the forums occasionally and *always* check first DPreview for its camera reviews.

Jerry

For most X20 buyers there is nothing that needs to be saved, no matter how much Fuji messed up with the camera, it will be still readily embraced by the "mini Leica" crowd. It seems Fuji knows what they are doing.

 DS21's gear list:DS21's gear list
Fujifilm FinePix F11 Zoom Fujifilm FinePix F30 Zoom Fujifilm FinePix F31fd Fujifilm FinePix F100fd Fujifilm FinePix S6000fd +9 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
tomhongkong
Senior MemberPosts: 2,466
Like?
Re: Can the X20 be saved? :-)
In reply to DS21, Mar 28, 2013

Strangely there is an increasing number of reviews of the X20 by professional reviewers, or blogs by professional photographers who look very positively on the X20.  (Google X20 reviews to find them)

At the same time there are posts on this forum by some folks who honestly admit to being beginners which show photographs which are poor, as well as some others which could have been better taken (and some decent shots as well).  The evidence of poor results is seized on by those who are determined that the X20 is going to be a failure as evidence to support their wishes.  (It is not difficult to take a bad photo with a good camera....I do it all the time!)

I have not yet upgraded from my X10, as I am waiting for prices to settle, as well as for further reviews.

However which set of current evidence do you believe?

I know which I do

Good shooting

tom

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
wymjym
Veteran MemberPosts: 5,311
Like?
Re: Can the X20 be saved? :-)
In reply to tomhongkong, Mar 28, 2013

tomhongkong wrote:

Strangely there is an increasing number of reviews of the X20 by professional reviewers, or blogs by professional photographers who look very positively on the X20.  (Google X20 reviews to find them)

At the same time there are posts on this forum by some folks who honestly admit to being beginners which show photographs which are poor, as well as some others which could have been better taken (and some decent shots as well).  The evidence of poor results is seized on by those who are determined that the X20 is going to be a failure as evidence to support their wishes.  (It is not difficult to take a bad photo with a good camera....I do it all the time!)

I have not yet upgraded from my X10, as I am waiting for prices to settle, as well as for further reviews.

However which set of current evidence do you believe?

I know which I do

Good shooting

tom

I find that I'm in the position of not being willing to leap through all of the fuji hoops (very, very specific settings for somewhat different shooting environs).

I used to carry a cheat sheet for several lenses in days past...finally concluded that they didn't possess enough magic when shot properly to justify their idiosyncrasies when I missed the 'sweet' spot.

Everyone's threshold for this tolerance is different.

wj

-- hide signature --

nikonfujicanonandricoh

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
DS21
Senior MemberPosts: 1,640Gear list
Like?
Re: Can the X20 be saved? :-)
In reply to tomhongkong, Mar 28, 2013

tomhongkong wrote:

Strangely there is an increasing number of reviews of the X20 by professional reviewers, or blogs by professional photographers who look very positively on the X20.  (Google X20 reviews to find them)

At the same time there are posts on this forum by some folks who honestly admit to being beginners which show photographs which are poor, as well as some others which could have been better taken (and some decent shots as well).  The evidence of poor results is seized on by those who are determined that the X20 is going to be a failure as evidence to support their wishes.  (It is not difficult to take a bad photo with a good camera....I do it all the time!)

I have not yet upgraded from my X10, as I am waiting for prices to settle, as well as for further reviews.

However which set of current evidence do you believe?

I know which I do

Good shooting

tom

The evidence so far points to the substandard JPEG engine in the camera, which will cause problems in all shooting situations where low contrast detail is present, and if there is any underexposure, which puts a lot of strain on the operator. It all goes back to the mini-Leica fad, some "pros" will put up with anything to have a fancy "photographers" camera, and some "amateurs" will genuinely struggle if they don't shoot RAW. I know which set of evidence I believe. A good camera should have a decent JPEG engine, not to have to dance around the settings all the time to get usable images.

 DS21's gear list:DS21's gear list
Fujifilm FinePix F11 Zoom Fujifilm FinePix F30 Zoom Fujifilm FinePix F31fd Fujifilm FinePix F100fd Fujifilm FinePix S6000fd +9 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
unknown member
(unknown member)
Like?
Re: Can the X20 be saved? :-)
In reply to jwrussell, Mar 28, 2013

There are always a number of DPR Forum posters who will just never be satisfied with anything, except carping, whining, and moaning about any and every new camera (and the company that built it) that comes along.  To be charitable, I chalk it up to the faceless un-civility that can rear its' head on the WWW at any given moment.  I sincerely hope in their personal lives they are not as miserable as they are in this forum !

I will say what I've been thinking:  I think the X20 is going to be more different than the X10 than anyone realizes.  As such, a lot of the techniques we learned for the X10 will either have to be modified a lot, or we'll have to develop strategies unique to the 20.

But I don't see how any of that's possible as they are only now getting into circulation.  Can not understand how for some the thing has already run it's entire product cycle just by reading random posts and dodgy personal reviews (usually with dreadful pics) without ever using one themsleves.

And ultimately, Fujifilm surely did a LOT of work updating the 20 and 100S, obviously listened to their customers, and are selling the new products for the same MSRP.  Bravo !

Where's the Tylenol . . . . .

All the Best,

JW

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Joel Stern
Forum ProPosts: 10,340Gear list
Like?
Re: Can the X20 be saved? :-)
In reply to mspahl, Mar 28, 2013

mspahl wrote:

Hello,

I am new to this forum and a new X20 - user (having had a X 100 for some time now, which I really enjoy!!).

I think, there is nothing really wrong with this cam`s jpegs, here are a few OOC-shots, I just made to test the cam:

Just my 2 cents

-- hide signature --

mspahl

you are correct

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Joel Stern
Forum ProPosts: 10,340Gear list
Like?
Re: Can the X20 be saved? :-)
In reply to DS21, Mar 28, 2013

DS21 wrote:

jwrussell wrote:

Sorry to dive right in with the hyperbole.  At the same time it seems to fit in with a lot of what I'm reading here.  This is pretty amazing to me.  We have a brand new camera with a brand new sensor and although some people have had them for a few weeks most are just receiving them now.  And yet many are already writing the camera off as hopeless because of JPEG rendering, AWB failures and unhappiness with the OVF?

Having survived the ORB hysteria with my X10 I think it's premature the start in on the X20 just yet.  Perhaps we should give some of these very talented people a chance to experiment with the multitude of settings to find the combinations that result in pleasing JPEG output.  Has anyone really mastered this camera after dozens or even a few hundred photos?  Maybe I'm just a slow learner but upon receiving even my Canon 1D I was initially disappointed with some of the images.  It took a lot of tinkering to *consistently* bring out the beautiful images the camera is capable of.

And maybe we should give the X20's AWB a chance in other settings.  Trying to duplicate a photo using cameras with two entirely different sensors is bound to cause anxiety.  Isn't it possible that if the AWB on the X20 is not up to X10 standards in some circumstances that it may surpass the X10 in other lighting situations?

And for those of us who learned to love the X10 optical viewfinder can the new one be anything but a step up--even if it's not the equal to your very excellent <name your brand>?

I must admit at this point that my X20 doesn't arrive until tomorrow.  I sold my X10 to a good friend several weeks ago because he needed an excellent little camera and I knew the X20 would be shipping soon.  I've spent the past few weeks wisely, buying a GX1 with 20mm f1.7, and an LX7, and have played with several others in the store.  This has resulted in the LX7 heading off to it's next owner and the GX1 boxed and ready to go.  Both are excellent cameras but both are reminders of why I love the X10 and hope to love the X20.  If I'm going to lugs lenses I'll lug Canon lenses with the 1D and if I can't have a viewfinder then my iPhone will do. 

So my vote is to give the X20 a month or two to get used to it and learn what settings it likes.  If I can't come to terms with all of the reported "issues" I'll sell it and buy a used X10 that will be flooding eBay about that time.

My very best regards to each of you.  This post is not intended to offend or provoke anyone and is probably written as much to calm myself as anything else.  This looks like my first post but I was in fact an early member--back when my main camera was a Canon D30--not to be mistaken for the 30D--the D30 was the original Canon DSLR with a whopping 3 MP.  I quit posting years ago but continue to lurk around the forums occasionally and *always* check first DPreview for its camera reviews.

Jerry

For most X20 buyers there is nothing that needs to be saved, no matter how much Fuji messed up with the camera, it will be still readily embraced by the "mini Leica" crowd. It seems Fuji knows what they are doing.

You are a breath of fresh air, thanks for your always positive posts.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
DS21
Senior MemberPosts: 1,640Gear list
Like?
Re: Can the X20 be saved? :-)
In reply to Gaijin Tourist, Mar 28, 2013

There are always a number of DPR Forum posters who will just never be satisfied with anything, except carping, whining, and moaning about any and every new camera (and the company that built it) that comes along.  To be charitable, I chalk it up to the faceless un-civility that can rear its' head on the WWW at any given moment.  I sincerely hope in their personal lives they are not as miserable as they are in this forum !

I will say what I've been thinking:  I think the X20 is going to be more different than the X10 than anyone realizes.  As such, a lot of the techniques we learned for the X10 will either have to be modified a lot, or we'll have to develop strategies unique to the 20.

But I don't see how any of that's possible as they are only now getting into circulation.  Can not understand how for some the thing has already run it's entire product cycle just by reading random posts and dodgy personal reviews (usually with dreadful pics) without ever using one themsleves.

And ultimately, Fujifilm surely did a LOT of work updating the 20 and 100S, obviously listened to their customers, and are selling the new products for the same MSRP.  Bravo !

Where's the Tylenol . . . . .

All the Best,

JW

Also to be charitable, I will not talk about the delusions some forum members seem to have, and get upset when all forum members don't share their delusions.

 DS21's gear list:DS21's gear list
Fujifilm FinePix F11 Zoom Fujifilm FinePix F30 Zoom Fujifilm FinePix F31fd Fujifilm FinePix F100fd Fujifilm FinePix S6000fd +9 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
tinpusher
Senior MemberPosts: 1,234Gear list
Like?
Re: Can the X20 be saved? :-)
In reply to Joel Stern, Mar 28, 2013

I still have my X10 and it's going nowhere as my adventure with the X20 begins.

Far too early to be conclusive but everything about the new X20 seems better except the IQ.

Resolution has actually improved as promised and the images by default have more contrast but that sensor looks noisy. The standard NR of -2 is essential to minimise watercolouring but the problem of noise really shows as you increase JPEGs to ISO 3200.

I only did it out of curiosity to compare to my X10 and the results made the 12mps X10 a winner in my eyes. I didn't even try a 6mps version.

I've not tried RAW yet but results coming from Lightroom don't fill me with awe.

As I say very early days but I'm totally under-whelmed by the X Trans Sensor ; how come it's so well received in the larger Fujis?

 tinpusher's gear list:tinpusher's gear list
Leica X1 Sony RX100 Fujifilm X100S Sigma DP3 Merrill Sony SLT-A55 +2 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Midwest
Forum ProPosts: 13,743
Like?
Re: Can the X20 be saved? :-)
In reply to DS21, Mar 28, 2013

DS21 wrote:

For most X20 buyers there is nothing that needs to be saved, no matter how much Fuji messed up with the camera, it will be still readily embraced by the "mini Leica" crowd. It seems Fuji knows what they are doing.

I think Fuji knew what they were doing with the X20. But what a contrast so far...

The X10 came out and before too long it became clear that circumstances not-all-that-uncommon could cause it to generate obvious white circles as round as if they'd been punched from the image. And the fans insisted it didn't happen, they said the people getting the 'orbs' must not know how to use the camera properly, etc. etc.

Now the X20 comes along and before anyone has really come to grips with all the best settings, people are writing it off as no good.

The X10 got the benefit of every conceivable doubt on Earth and the X20 gets condemned as no good after a dozen shots get posted. From what I've seen thus far I'd take an X20 any day over an X10.

-- hide signature --

It's nice to say that nice pictures are nice.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Joel Stern
Forum ProPosts: 10,340Gear list
Like?
Re: Can the X20 be saved? :-)
In reply to Midwest, Mar 28, 2013

Midwest wrote:

DS21 wrote:

For most X20 buyers there is nothing that needs to be saved, no matter how much Fuji messed up with the camera, it will be still readily embraced by the "mini Leica" crowd. It seems Fuji knows what they are doing.

I think Fuji knew what they were doing with the X20. But what a contrast so far...

The X10 came out and before too long it became clear that circumstances not-all-that-uncommon could cause it to generate obvious white circles as round as if they'd been punched from the image. And the fans insisted it didn't happen, they said the people getting the 'orbs' must not know how to use the camera properly, etc. etc.

Now the X20 comes along and before anyone has really come to grips with all the best settings, people are writing it off as no good.

The X10 got the benefit of every conceivable doubt on Earth and the X20 gets condemned as no good after a dozen shots get posted. From what I've seen thus far I'd take an X20 any day over an X10.

-- hide signature --

It's nice to say that nice pictures are nice.

One of the best points I have seen made to date.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads