Where's the "G" or Zeiss standard zoom?

Started Mar 27, 2013 | Discussions
TiagoReil
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Re: Where's the "G" or Zeiss standard zoom?
In reply to Keit ll, Mar 28, 2013

Keit ll wrote:

When I bought the roadmap didn't exist but foolishly I believed in promises made by a Sony rep ! OK things are different now but seeing a roadmap doesn't actually guarantee anything , it certainly doesn't give reliable dates for the next releases for instance.

Who in Sony made the decisions about the Heinz varieties of the 18-200 mm zoom ? Who was it didn't realize that when they decided to move up-market with the NEX 7 that better lenses were required ? Who decided to persuade Zeiss to bring out more lenses without addressing the issue of lack of IS ?

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Keith C

I had a nex camera since the beginning  the nex-5. and there has always been a roadmap. Yes. at the beginning there was no 2013, and 2012 was tweaked (because of requests of smaller lenses), but there has always been a roadmap.

The 18200 has to do with video. The first version and the power zoom were designed for the VG line in mind (although used by the other line), and the Tamron/LE 18200 is targeted to still photo shooters.

And Lack of IS is a design decision  not an issue (it can be an issue for you) that has been there and confirmed it will be there for a long time.

Again, all these things have been there for a long time. If you are a P&S upgrader is logical that you didn't know all this. If not, I think it was pretty obvious what the nex line is about.

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uhligfd
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Re: Where's the "G" or Zeiss standard zoom?
In reply to Lattimer, Mar 28, 2013

Dear Lattimer, you write:

"... something smaller than DSLR for travel. My wife and I usually end up taking one international trip per year, and I like to try and take the best pictures I can, because ...

And the you explain why you want to have the G zoom to do that.

Why?

What is missing when you use  the 18-55 E kit zoom in image quality right now? Can you describe the loss you suffer in your pics with the standard kit zoom? I really wonder about what that is . Please, please let us know.

For example what percentage of the final "image quality" do you personally attribute to

(a) "gear", what to

(b) luck, what to

(c) a good viewing eye for composition, light, the final picture previsualized,  what percentage to

(d) good post processing skills, what to a

(e) good lab and framing of the final image.

From my experience, I would guess  - for me -  the percentages are around

(a) 10%, (b) 15%, (c) 50 %, (d) 15%, (e) 10%.

And - for me - how important is the "gear factor" then?

If one cannot, does not want to "improve one's gear" alone, then most of one's improvement comes  from part (c) of the equation. Improve your visual acuity, your seeing ability, learn to see and take pictures. It has the 5 fold effect that a possible minimally better lens addition might have for what you want to achieve: better pics.

Good luck with what you own. The other, the 'dream gear' is nearly irrelevant to the pics you and/or your wife just don't like enough because in your mind you have executed them badly, there is usually no blame on the gear, please.

Good luck learning humbly how to shoot what will make a good picture then!

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EinsteinsGhost
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Re: Where's the "G" or Zeiss standard zoom?
In reply to chris norlund, Mar 28, 2013

chris norlund wrote:

Was the 20mm 2.8 supposed to be the pancake snapshot?  I was anxiously waiting for a cool pancake.

Yes. I was expecting a 24mm f/2.8 pancake for Pancake Snapshot, and was surprised that Sony went wider. It really doesn't make any difference though.

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OvinceZ
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Re: Where's the "G" or Zeiss standard zoom?
In reply to uhligfd, Mar 28, 2013

Let us look at this from a different perspective. Suppose we ignor all the user error factors that contribute to unsatisfactory photos. If we want to use the kit 18-55 for sharp landscape photos will that do? Well it depends in part on the subject matter. If one is shooting foliage then you need sharp glass. This is not something one argues about. I have seen this. I went out for a week and took photos with my new acquisitions. An Olympus OMD and a NEX7. Well, when I looked at photos on my 30 inch Dell the sharpness wasn't there. On the NEX kit lens there was softness on the left side. This phenomenon occurred in 2 other kit lenses at the Sony Store in Sydney. I eventually found one I took home. Yes, it is fine for out and about shooting, flowers, snapshots, people photos, flash. All good. However, if you want Canon 5DII quality you won't get it with the kit lens on landscapes. The 16-80 delivers but you need a big EA2 adapter that is awkward to hold and is noisy to operate. If I wanted a small kit lens I would buy the smaller 16-50 and rely on that for a walk around lens. If I want sharp photos of foliage then the 16-80 is a good option. Very pleased with this lens. The kit 18-55 stays in a filing cabinet unused now.

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TiagoReil
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Re: Where's the "G" or Zeiss standard zoom?
In reply to OvinceZ, Mar 28, 2013

OvinceZ wrote:

Let us look at this from a different perspective. Suppose we ignor all the user error factors that contribute to unsatisfactory photos. If we want to use the kit 18-55 for sharp landscape photos will that do? Well it depends in part on the subject matter. If one is shooting foliage then you need sharp glass. This is not something one argues about. I have seen this. I went out for a week and took photos with my new acquisitions. An Olympus OMD and a NEX7. Well, when I looked at photos on my 30 inch Dell the sharpness wasn't there. On the NEX kit lens there was softness on the left side. This phenomenon occurred in 2 other kit lenses at the Sony Store in Sydney. I eventually found one I took home. Yes, it is fine for out and about shooting, flowers, snapshots, people photos, flash. All good. However, if you want Canon 5DII quality you won't get it with the kit lens on landscapes. The 16-80 delivers but you need a big EA2 adapter that is awkward to hold and is noisy to operate. If I wanted a small kit lens I would buy the smaller 16-50 and rely on that for a walk around lens. If I want sharp photos of foliage then the 16-80 is a good option. Very pleased with this lens. The kit 18-55 stays in a filing cabinet unused now.

Vince

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IF you want Canon 5Dmark2 quality you should get a Canon 5Dmark2 (or 3, or a sony A99). You are comparing an expensive full frame camera geared to professionals to an APS-c camera geared to amateurs(granted, relatively expensive for what it is). I think sometimes expectations are really unrealistic.

This is like getting a nice Toyota and expecting it to perform as a Mercedez Benz. Makes no sense when said that way, right? But for some reason it is expected from the nex line.

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EinsteinsGhost
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Re: Where's the "G" or Zeiss standard zoom?
In reply to Keit ll, Mar 28, 2013

Keit ll wrote:

When I bought the roadmap didn't exist but foolishly I believed in promises made by a Sony rep ! OK things are different now but seeing a roadmap doesn't actually guarantee anything , it certainly doesn't give reliable dates for the next releases for instance.

And to think you're singing praise for Fuji's launches. At least Sony has delivered what it has promised on the road map so far and done so while keeping the prices lower than Fuji (only 10-18, 18-200 and 24mm/1.8 are more than $500, which matters more than differences require pixel peeping... often to the surprise that there isn't any).

It will be a first, if Sony didn't launch 85mm and a G-zoom this year.

Who in Sony made the decisions about the Heinz varieties of the 18-200 mm zoom ? Who was it didn't realize that when they decided to move up-market with the NEX 7 that better lenses were required ? Who decided to persuade Zeiss to bring out more lenses without addressing the issue of lack of IS ?

I don't need OS/IS even on 35mm f/1.8 lens much less at shorter focal lengths. In fact, the ONE E-mount lens I do have, with OSS, isn't often used for months. And when I do, it is rarely with OSS because I keep it turned off (and do the same on my A55 too, unless dealing with extremely low light conditions).

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EinsteinsGhost
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Re: Where's the "G" or Zeiss standard zoom?
In reply to Lattimer, Mar 28, 2013
Lattimer wrote:

I intially bought into the Nex system when I was graduating from P&S and wanted something smaller than DSLR for travel. My wife and I usually end up taking one international trip per year, and I like to try and take the best pictures I can, because you never know when/if you'll be able to make it back to some of these locations.

And you made a fine choice.

I started with the Nex 5N and the kit 18-55 along with the Sigma 19 and 30.  I figured I could use those lenses to practice, and get the "G" zoom that was rumored to be just around the corner when it came out.  Months turned into more than a year and a half, and still no high end standard zoom is available for the e mount.

Rumors are the issue, whereas the official roadmap has had the pancake (20mm/2.8, launched), G-zoom (and a short telephoto, 85mm expected) scheduled for 2013.

And, IMO, if you want to maximize quality, you should consider substituting zoom with primes. Obviously, if you are looking into a premium zoom, budget isn't much of an issue. And especially considering that if you get 20mm/2.8, 35mm/1.8 and 50mm/1.8, you not only have the most useful range covered, you have it covered with speed that no zoom will give you.

I've thought about getting the LA-EA2, but by the time I add that and an A mount lens, I could have just bought a full size DSLR.

Continuing on the point above, LA-EA2 is a great option if you want to expand the role of your NEX. If you are looking for a fast zoom with decent reach and build quality, it is not going to be light and small. But, of course, you would be buying it for certain occasions. Let me give you my own example. I have Sony SLT-A55, which is among the lightest and smallest DSLR/DSLT body out there at 495g. I also have Sony NEX-3, that tips the scale at 295g. I use several legacy lenses on NEX-3, have couple of E-mount lenses and several A-mount lenses. I have LA-EA2 (about 200g). So, when I do use LA-EA2 on NEX-3, the combination tips the scale at about the same. But, I don't plan on using LA-EA2 all the time.

My choice for telephoto is Minolta 200mm f/2.8 G APO HS. It is not only a beautiful lens, it is also considerably lighter and smaller than 70-200mm f/2.8 G SSM (think half the size and weight). Mounted on NEX-3 via EA2, the combination tips the scale at about 3 lb (that is the weight of 70-200mm f/2.8 G itself) and is still compact enough to allow 2-3 additional lenses in my sling bag.

So, while NEX-3 w/EA2 and 200mm/2.8 combination doesn't really make for a pocketable combination any more than A55 w/200mm f/2.8 does, I also have the option of putting small lenses and carrying the NEX in my pockets when I don't need the super fast AF speed via EA2. That can't be done even with A55, much less DSLRs.

Given that a higher quality zoom is unlikely to be available before our trip, should I start considering the SEL18200? Is the IQ much better than the kit SEL1855?  I dont mind swapping lenses occasionally, but if I could leave one lens on most of the time, it would make the trip much more enjoyable. If it's not clearly better than the 18-55, I guess I'll just make do with the kit lens most of the time.

And as with any zoom (except 18-55), I've opted to use EA2+A-mount lenses for zooms. The only E-mount zoom lens appealing to me is the 10-18/4 because it is tiny and light, and excellent. So, my personal choice for travel zoom is Sigma 18-250 HSM OS which I can use between A55 and NEX (new version of the lens does not have OS though, something important in such a slow lens). But, if you don't want to invest in EA2, then 18-200 (either Tamron or Sony) should work fine as a one-lens solution.

Or, you could consider simply a collection of primes. Find a cheap 24mm legacy lens, and I assume you already have 35mm/1.8 and 50mm f/1.8? Perhaps add a 100-135mm prime that you can slip in your pockets for telephoto reach.

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Lattimer
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Re: Where's the "G" or Zeiss standard zoom?
In reply to uhligfd, Mar 28, 2013

uhligfd wrote:

Dear Lattimer, you write:

"... something smaller than DSLR for travel. My wife and I usually end up taking one international trip per year, and I like to try and take the best pictures I can, because ...

And the you explain why you want to have the G zoom to do that.

Why?

What is missing when you use  the 18-55 E kit zoom in image quality right now? Can you describe the loss you suffer in your pics with the standard kit zoom? I really wonder about what that is . Please, please let us know.

For example what percentage of the final "image quality" do you personally attribute to

(a) "gear", what to

(b) luck, what to

(c) a good viewing eye for composition, light, the final picture previsualized,  what percentage to

(d) good post processing skills, what to a

(e) good lab and framing of the final image.

From my experience, I would guess  - for me -  the percentages are around

(a) 10%, (b) 15%, (c) 50 %, (d) 15%, (e) 10%.

And - for me - how important is the "gear factor" then?

If one cannot, does not want to "improve one's gear" alone, then most of one's improvement comes  from part (c) of the equation. Improve your visual acuity, your seeing ability, learn to see and take pictures. It has the 5 fold effect that a possible minimally better lens addition might have for what you want to achieve: better pics.

Good luck with what you own. The other, the 'dream gear' is nearly irrelevant to the pics you and/or your wife just don't like enough because in your mind you have executed them badly, there is usually no blame on the gear, please.

Good luck learning humbly how to shoot what will make a good picture then!

You raise a valid point.  Indeed the kit lens has been my go to lens on my last couple of trips, and will probably be again on this one.  My photography skills and post processing skills both could use a lot of work, and I agree that improvements to these would yield a more noticeable improvement in IQ than simply getting a better lens.  However, the lens is still a part of the equation even if it's a small variable. May as well maximize chances of a good result right?

Most of our vacation pics have been quite satisfactory.  It's not that I'm dissatisfied with them, but its part of my personality to continually try and improve upon things.

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OvinceZ
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Re: Where's the "G" or Zeiss standard zoom?
In reply to TiagoReil, Mar 28, 2013

I have two 5DII and a 60D that I take on outings. The NEX7 is hung around my neck or carried in a waist bag. Since I bought the 16-80 and EA2 the results I am getting are the equal of the 5DII. The NEX7 produces sharper photos with the Metabones smart adapter than the same lens on the 60D. 500 plus 2X extender. Seeing is believing.

Vince

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OvinceZ
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Re: Where's the "G" or Zeiss standard zoom?
In reply to Lattimer, Mar 28, 2013

I agree. When we have the best equipment we can't blame the camera anymore.

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EinsteinsGhost
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Re: Where's the "G" or Zeiss standard zoom?
In reply to Lattimer, Mar 28, 2013

Lattimer wrote:

You raise a valid point.  Indeed the kit lens has been my go to lens on my last couple of trips, and will probably be again on this one.  My photography skills and post processing skills both could use a lot of work...

Most of our vacation pics have been quite satisfactory.  It's not that I'm dissatisfied with them, but its part of my personality to continually try and improve upon things.

IMO, even if you believe that, photography skills will continue to develop for all of us. However, it is the second part of your point that I feel you could avoid. If you don’t like your post-processing skills, assume that you do. If you don’t use RAW, use RAW + JPEG. Store RAW for a re-visit at a later date. You may want to, may be as a learning tool, or even to develop more awesome images that you didn’t believe you could capture.

And if you rely on JPEGs today, my recommendation will be to use “weak” high ISO settings. Use hand held twilight etc for high ISO pictures (you won’t get RAW with those, however).

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S3ZAi
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Re: Where's the "G" or Zeiss standard zoom?
In reply to OvinceZ, Mar 28, 2013

Even though at first this "G" lens looked quite attractive to me too, I can't imagine going back from 200mm max zoom to 50ish mm anymore. Until a high quality 18-200 lens comes, I'm sticking to my 18200LE.

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TiagoReil
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Re: Where's the "G" or Zeiss standard zoom?
In reply to OvinceZ, Mar 28, 2013

OvinceZ wrote:

I have two 5DII and a 60D that I take on outings. The NEX7 is hung around my neck or carried in a waist bag. Since I bought the 16-80 and EA2 the results I am getting are the equal of the 5DII. The NEX7 produces sharper photos with the Metabones smart adapter than the same lens on the 60D. 500 plus 2X extender. Seeing is believing.

Vince

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Yes, but at a compromise. I have no FF camera to compare against, but I have a nex-6 with LAEA2 and a sigma 70mm f2.8  macro that I use for portraits, and it is great. But I compromise a lot to achive it. It si no longer "mirrorless size". People seem to want it all, small, high IQ and cheap, and it is obvious you can choose only one of them at a time.

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