Sigma SD1M wrong colors

Started Mar 27, 2013 | Discussions
Hardy Steiner
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Re: Whithout seeing the X3F there is no way to make conclusions
In reply to anfat, Mar 29, 2013

ok, excellent. If you try different exposure settings it will hopefully work.

In the past, with the SD14 I very often used an external incident light might and reds and yellows turned out fine. I only had the SD1 M for 3 months and haven't shot anything red yet. One day when I find time I shall do an experiment.

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anfat
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Re: Here's what I see
In reply to Laurence Matson, Mar 29, 2013

Laurence Matson wrote:

anfat wrote:

Hi, I have a new SD1M that produce colors not true: some reds are orange, some greens are light blue; I've tried to change wb and to set up a personal wb, but with no result...which could be the cause?

Here is what I am seeing. All in the same colorspace (Standard) and white balance (Overcast), all auto. Since I have no idea what these looked like in the real world, it is hard to say. However, the set of signs look right in terms of color.

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Laurence
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here two similar images shot with dp2m, same sensor...the colors are as they are in the real world...

http://we.tl/kgi7OyBZHn

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Kendall Helmstetter Gelner
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A few other things going on...
In reply to anfat, Mar 29, 2013

I downloaded your images, thanks to the YouSendIt links.

While there still is a much stronger difference between your SD-1 and DP-2M than I am getting from my images, there are a few other factors at play:

1) Exposure.  Your DP-2M image is strongly overexposed, the SD-1 image not very much.  The DP-2M image can be recovered fully or so the histogram says, but it might be affecting the color.

2) Time of day.  The quality of the light between the two shots is really different - the DP-2M at high noon, the SD-1 in the morning with very orange light (which may be contributing to the slide color).

I think the thing to do for a better evaluation is, go take two pictures without about the same settings at the same time of the same subjects and see how different those look...

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anfat
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Re: A few other things going on...
In reply to Kendall Helmstetter Gelner, Mar 29, 2013

Kendall Helmstetter Gelner wrote:

I downloaded your images, thanks to the YouSendIt links.

While there still is a much stronger difference between your SD-1 and DP-2M than I am getting from my images, there are a few other factors at play:

1) Exposure.  Your DP-2M image is strongly overexposed, the SD-1 image not very much.  The DP-2M image can be recovered fully or so the histogram says, but it might be affecting the color.

2) Time of day.  The quality of the light between the two shots is really different - the DP-2M at high noon, the SD-1 in the morning with very orange light (which may be contributing to the slide color).

I think the thing to do for a better evaluation is, go take two pictures without about the same settings at the same time of the same subjects and see how different those look...

yes, thank you for evaluation...when we 'll have a better weather I'll do that...

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Gary Dean Mercer Clark
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Re: A few other things going on...
In reply to anfat, Mar 29, 2013

anfat wrote:

Kendall Helmstetter Gelner wrote:

I downloaded your images, thanks to the YouSendIt links.

While there still is a much stronger difference between your SD-1 and DP-2M than I am getting from my images, there are a few other factors at play:

1) Exposure.  Your DP-2M image is strongly overexposed, the SD-1 image not very much.  The DP-2M image can be recovered fully or so the histogram says, but it might be affecting the color.

2) Time of day.  The quality of the light between the two shots is really different - the DP-2M at high noon, the SD-1 in the morning with very orange light (which may be contributing to the slide color).

I think the thing to do for a better evaluation is, go take two pictures without about the same settings at the same time of the same subjects and see how different those look...

yes, thank you for evaluation...when we 'll have a better weather I'll do that...

First let me say that I found your images on Flickr to be outstanding. Bravo. Beautiful.The Italian countryside and seascapes are luscious. The floral work is rich and colorful.

Now about the difference between the DP Merrill and SD1M.  After reviewing your work, it is clear that you like bright, very colorful images with punchy color.  Shoot with Auto white balance in vibrant mode with the SD1M to produce the most colorful images.  If you are shooting raw---just change the settings to Auto + vibrant and see if that doesn't produce pretty accurate reds with the SD1M.

I've never had good luck shooting with the different color temperatures like overcast etc.  Like you I have my monitor color calibrated--using a different system, but I could see the orangish cast you mention---deffinitely a result of using the overcast white balance setting.  When shooting outdoors, I've found that shooting on auto white balance is very accurate.

Its a little difficult to compare apples to oranges between your DP Merrill images and the SD1M images as the exposures are different.

One camera was more over exposed than the other.  I think if you do a head to head test with both cameras with the same settings, you will find very little difference in color accuracy.  Let us know how your test works out.

Gary Dean Mercer Clark

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Roland Karlsson
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Re: A few other things going on...
In reply to Gary Dean Mercer Clark, Mar 30, 2013

Gary Dean Mercer Clark wrote:

First let me say that I found your images on Flickr to be outstanding. Bravo. Beautiful.The Italian countryside and seascapes are luscious. The floral work is rich and colorful.

Now about the difference between the DP Merrill and SD1M.  After reviewing your work, it is clear that you like bright, very colorful images with punchy color.  Shoot with Auto white balance in vibrant mode with the SD1M to produce the most colorful images.  If you are shooting raw---just change the settings to Auto + vibrant and see if that doesn't produce pretty accurate reds with the SD1M.

I've never had good luck shooting with the different color temperatures like overcast etc.  Like you I have my monitor color calibrated--using a different system, but I could see the orangish cast you mention---deffinitely a result of using the overcast white balance setting.  When shooting outdoors, I've found that shooting on auto white balance is very accurate.

Its a little difficult to compare apples to oranges between your DP Merrill images and the SD1M images as the exposures are different.

One camera was more over exposed than the other.  I think if you do a head to head test with both cameras with the same settings, you will find very little difference in color accuracy.  Let us know how your test works out.

Gary Dean Mercer Clark

Correct me if I am wrong, which I can be as I have no Sigma camera, but as far as I know it does not matter what setting you have when you shoot. You can always chose any setting in SPP, except that you  cannot change the actual exposure. So, it is vibrant or overcast or whatever ... it does not matter. Its just a starting point for SPP.

So, therefore some here asked for the RAW files, and got them.

And ... the RAW fils are different. The DP2M files have red reds, that maybe are somewhat pink. And the SD1M files have orange reds. Its very easy to see.

Now, the exposures are not made at identical lighting. So, to be absolutely sure, tests where both cameras have the same situation is probably a good idea.

Playing around with the color wheel in SPP I found something peculiar. The red parts in the DP2M files were easy to modify and I could get almost any value, from orange to purple. But, the SD1M file red did nearly not change a bit - it was orange all the time.

I find that strange.

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Laurence Matson
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Re: Here's what I see
In reply to Laurence Matson, Mar 30, 2013

Laurence Matson wrote:

anfat wrote:

Hi, I have a new SD1M that produce colors not true: some reds are orange, some greens are light blue; I've tried to change wb and to set up a personal wb, but with no result...which could be the cause?

Here is what I am seeing. All in the same colorspace (Standard) and white balance (Overcast), all auto. Since I have no idea what these looked like in the real world, it is hard to say. However, the set of signs look right in terms of color.

The second set with everything set for zero but the same colorspace (Standard) and white balance (Overcast).

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Laurence
laurence at appledore-farm dot com
"The fact of being reported multiplies the apparent extent of any deplorable development by five- to tenfold" (or any figure the reader would care to supply).
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Roland Karlsson
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Re: Here's what I see
In reply to Laurence Matson, Mar 30, 2013

Laurence Matson wrote:

The second set with everything set for zero but the same colorspace (Standard) and white balance (Overcast).

And, as you can see. The difference in the red is huge. Pinkish red vs orange.

I would be mildly surprised if pinkish red is correct.

I would be very surprised if orange is correct.

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Park70
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Re: Sigma SD1M wrong colors
In reply to anfat, Mar 30, 2013

The RAW files supplied by anfat converted in SPP 5.5

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Kendall Helmstetter Gelner
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Many things are different
In reply to Roland Karlsson, Mar 30, 2013

Roland Karlsson wrote:

<....>

And ... the RAW fils are different. The DP2M files have red reds, that maybe are somewhat pink. And the SD1M files have orange reds. Its very easy to see.

Now, the exposures are not made at identical lighting. So, to be absolutely sure, tests where both cameras have the same situation is probably a good idea.

Playing around with the color wheel in SPP I found something peculiar. The red parts in the DP2M files were easy to modify and I could get almost any value, from orange to purple. But, the SD1M file red did nearly not change a bit - it was orange all the time.

I find that strange.

I found that strange also.  Is it the camera?  Something about SPP processing of SD-1 files?

As I posted in a separate part of this thread, I was able to reproduce a very orange-red SD-1 hydrant while a DP-3M shot was just red.  But then with adjustment of just the color mode to Standard and a little saturation, I had a very close match where the SD-1 was properly red.

That's why in the end I think we need to see a new set of RAW files with his two cameras, because between the two-stop difference in exposure of the reds, and the totally different color temperature of the ambient light I think we just have too many variables going on.

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Gary Dean Mercer Clark
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Re: A few other things going on...
In reply to Roland Karlsson, Mar 30, 2013

Roland Karlsson wrote:

Gary Dean Mercer Clark wrote:

First let me say that I found your images on Flickr to be outstanding. Bravo. Beautiful.The Italian countryside and seascapes are luscious. The floral work is rich and colorful.

Now about the difference between the DP Merrill and SD1M.  After reviewing your work, it is clear that you like bright, very colorful images with punchy color.  Shoot with Auto white balance in vibrant mode with the SD1M to produce the most colorful images.  If you are shooting raw---just change the settings to Auto + vibrant and see if that doesn't produce pretty accurate reds with the SD1M.

I've never had good luck shooting with the different color temperatures like overcast etc.  Like you I have my monitor color calibrated--using a different system, but I could see the orangish cast you mention---deffinitely a result of using the overcast white balance setting.  When shooting outdoors, I've found that shooting on auto white balance is very accurate.

Its a little difficult to compare apples to oranges between your DP Merrill images and the SD1M images as the exposures are different.

One camera was more over exposed than the other.  I think if you do a head to head test with both cameras with the same settings, you will find very little difference in color accuracy.  Let us know how your test works out.

Gary Dean Mercer Clark

Correct me if I am wrong, which I can be as I have no Sigma camera, but as far as I know it does not matter what setting you have when you shoot. You can always chose any setting in SPP, except that you  cannot change the actual exposure. So, it is vibrant or overcast or whatever ... it does not matter. Its just a starting point for SPP.

Sure-- you are shooting raw so you can change the setting later.  I shoot on auto white balance and make a change afterwards if needed.

So, therefore some here asked for the RAW files, and got them.

And ... the RAW fils are different. The DP2M files have red reds, that maybe are somewhat pink. And the SD1M files have orange reds. Its very easy to see.

Now, the exposures are not made at identical lighting. So, to be absolutely sure, tests where both cameras have the same situation is probably a good idea.

I find that strange.

The color temperature of the scenes were completely different at 10am with than 4pm in the afternoon.  The cloud conditions and lighting are completely different. The exposures are completely different. I took the SD1M files and set the white balance to auto and the orangish red turns more red in the scene with the color temperature of the lighting that it was shot in.  10 O'Clock sunlight and angles versus 4Pm sunlight and angles--thats a big difference in scene color temperature.  I was glad to download the files and take a peek at them myself--it was interesting comparing two different camera's images of the similar scene, shot at different times of the day in different conditions and different exposure settings and I'm not sure that too many conclusions can be drawn from these two sets of photos.  It was nice to see actual raw files and to get the opportunity to see them, It was really nice of the OP to share the originals with the forum.  If you look at his flicker images--he really has some very nice photographs posted online.  The part of Italy where he lives is so beautiful. I spent about 20 minutes studying his work and enjoying it.  I want see this part of Italy!

/Roland
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Gary Dean Mercer Clark

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Roland Karlsson
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Re: Many things are different
In reply to Kendall Helmstetter Gelner, Mar 30, 2013

Kendall Helmstetter Gelner wrote:

...

Talking about peculiarities in SPP.

  1. Why is sunlight and overcast the same (or VERY similar) white balance?
  2. How the ¤%¤#¤ do that pipette in the Tonal Adjustment work? It seems only to affect exposure, and that's also what the manual says. But, the correlation to where I click and the result totally baffles me. It seems more or less random. Sometimes the image gets darker, sometimes lighter. And that without me being able to understand why. I would have guessed that if you clicked a dark part, the image gets lighter. But ... no, I get surprised every time.
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SandyF
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Re: Many things are different
In reply to Roland Karlsson, Mar 30, 2013

Roland Karlsson wrote:

Kendall Helmstetter Gelner wrote:

...

Talking about peculiarities in SPP.

  1. Why is sunlight and overcast the same (or VERY similar) white balance?
  2. How the ¤%¤#¤ do that pipette in the Tonal Adjustment work? It seems only to affect exposure, and that's also what the manual says. But, the correlation to where I click and the result totally baffles me. It seems more or less random. Sometimes the image gets darker, sometimes lighter. And that without me being able to understand why. I would have guessed that if you clicked a dark part, the image gets lighter. But ... no, I get surprised every time.

1. Sunlight wb and overcast wb I find different. Sunlight often for me is too yellow. I find really that auto wb + a selected colormode is usually better than just the wb and neutral colormode.

2. Are you clicking on a 255 white spot? I think that's the best way of using the tool. Sometimes it gives me too extreme results, but I know the direction of color selection. For example, if it gave me 5M+5Y, I might find that I liked 2M+2Y better. Note you can usually move the colorwheel direction by keyboard arrows.... sometimes that doesn't work though. Seems to depend upon which photos I'm working on... and on which computer.

For example, the color adjustment was really easy in my DP2Merrill files from August 2012 at the Pacific coast. I had a neat bit of white in most photos... the breaking wave!

Best regards, Sandy
http://www.pbase.com/sandyfleischman (archival)
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added: beach at 7M+6Y http://www.flickr.com/photos/sandyfleischmann/7884482304/in/set-72157631359840500/ with an in-cam JPEG version next to it in the set. I put many examples online of in-cam JPEG then my edited version as well, noting my adjustments. This is a reference I personally find handy and I hope others may too!

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Roland Karlsson
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Re: Many things are different
In reply to SandyF, Mar 30, 2013

SandyF wrote:

1. Sunlight wb and overcast wb I find different. Sunlight often for me is too yellow. I find really that auto wb + a selected colormode is usually better than just the wb and neutral colormode.

I am of course not experienced enough to have any real opinion. But, the images from Antonio looks the same at both sunlight and overcast.

2. Are you clicking on a 255 white spot? I think that's the best way of using the tool. Sometimes it gives me too extreme results, but I know the direction of color selection. For example, if it gave me 5M+5Y, I might find that I liked 2M+2Y better. Note you can usually move the colorwheel direction by keyboard arrows.... sometimes that doesn't work though. Seems to depend upon which photos I'm working on... and on which computer.

For example, the color adjustment was really easy in my DP2Merrill files from August 2012 at the Pacific coast. I had a neat bit of white in most photos... the breaking wave!

I am talking about the pipette just below "X3 fill Light", not the one at the color wheel. That pipette only affects "Exposure".

The color wheel pipette tries to make the thing you click at neutral grey.

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SandyF
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Re: Many things are different
In reply to Roland Karlsson, Mar 31, 2013

Roland Karlsson wrote:

SandyF wrote:

1. Sunlight wb and overcast wb I find different. Sunlight often for me is too yellow. I find really that auto wb + a selected colormode is usually better than just the wb and neutral colormode.

I am of course not experienced enough to have any real opinion. But, the images from Antonio looks the same at both sunlight and overcast.

2. Are you clicking on a 255 white spot? I think that's the best way of using the tool. Sometimes it gives me too extreme results, but I know the direction of color selection. For example, if it gave me 5M+5Y, I might find that I liked 2M+2Y better. Note you can usually move the colorwheel direction by keyboard arrows.... sometimes that doesn't work though. Seems to depend upon which photos I'm working on... and on which computer.

For example, the color adjustment was really easy in my DP2Merrill files from August 2012 at the Pacific coast. I had a neat bit of white in most photos... the breaking wave!

I am talking about the pipette just below "X3 fill Light", not the one at the color wheel. That pipette only affects "Exposure".

The color wheel pipette tries to make the thing you click at neutral grey.

I understand your point now....yes, that new tool just seems to move the exposure slider... which I usually do manually on the slider. Kind of weird it's there, unless there is something about it I too don't understand, ie if it makes any subtle adjustments other than what can be achieved on the exposure slider itself. I usually like to use exposure slider in conjunction with fill light slider. I usually don't go higher though than +.3 on fill light.

Best regards, Sandy
http://www.pbase.com/sandyfleischman (archival)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sandyfleischmann (current)

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detectorman
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Re: Many things are different
In reply to SandyF, Mar 31, 2013

Red Lincoln rose --

Red rose cropped from c amera jpeg

I have an SD1M and took the attached photo of a red rose. The attachment is from the jpeg file that the camera produced, but I looked at the X3F file in PhotoPro 5.3.2 and saved a jpeg from that also -- color seems the same to me. No adjustments were made in PhotoPro Things are blooming like crazy here in coastal California.

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Roland Karlsson
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Re: Many things are different
In reply to detectorman, Mar 31, 2013

Nice color on that rose.

Yes, the SD1M definitely can take red photos.

The problem here is the Antonio has some problems doing so, and we dont really KNOW why. We are still guessing. There are some few possible guesses

  1. Something is wrong with Antonio's camera
  2. Something is wrong in how Antonio uses his camera. Hmmmm ... seems hardly likely, he has made several images, and the only "wrong" thing that can be made is faulty exposure. And he has tested to vary the exposure.
  3. Something is wrong how Antonio uses SPP. This is more or less eliminated as Antonio has published X3F files.
  4. The red items Antonio has chosen have some unique color the SD1M cannot handle.

So ... 1 and 4 seems to be the best bets.

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anfat
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Re: Many things are different
In reply to Roland Karlsson, Mar 31, 2013

Roland Karlsson wrote:

Nice color on that rose.

Yes, the SD1M definitely can take red photos.

The problem here is the Antonio has some problems doing so, and we dont really KNOW why. We are still guessing. There are some few possible guesses

  1. Something is wrong with Antonio's camera
  2. Something is wrong in how Antonio uses his camera. Hmmmm ... seems hardly likely, he has made several images, and the only "wrong" thing that can be made is faulty exposure. And he has tested to vary the exposure.
  3. Something is wrong how Antonio uses SPP. This is more or less eliminated as Antonio has published X3F files.
  4. The red items Antonio has chosen have some unique color the SD1M cannot handle.

So ... 1 and 4 seems to be the best bets.

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I agree completely! I have sent raw files to Sigma assistance in my country...I'm waiting...

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