Sigma SD1M wrong colors

Started Mar 27, 2013 | Discussions
Tom Schum
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Re: Sigma SD1M wrong colors
In reply to anfat, Mar 27, 2013

Cinefeel posted something interesting a couple weeks ago and I believe the SD1 menu system allows something equivalent in-camera:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/post/41115168

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Hardy Steiner
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Custom white balance
In reply to anfat, Mar 27, 2013

Your pictures look different because the white balance is not 100% the same. You might be using the same settings, but maybe they are differently interpreted by the camera/SPP.

If you aim to get the same white balance with both cameras, you should try to use an Expodisk to get a custom white balance. This should help I would assume.

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Laurence Matson
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Re: Sigma SD1M wrong colors
In reply to anfat, Mar 27, 2013

anfat wrote:

if I use yousendit I have to post the links?

just send an e-mail. mine is public.

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Laurence
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Laurence Matson
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Re: Three color settings to check
In reply to anfat, Mar 27, 2013

anfat wrote:

I have tried all setting in the past days...no different result...

send the files if possible.

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Laurence
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Roland Karlsson
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Re: Custom white balance
In reply to Hardy Steiner, Mar 27, 2013

Hardy Steiner wrote:

Your pictures look different because the white balance is not 100% the same. You might be using the same settings, but maybe they are differently interpreted by the camera/SPP.

The colors are too different to be able to be explained by white balance. Moreover, it seems to be mainly the red channel that is affected.

If you aim to get the same white balance with both cameras, you should try to use an Expodisk to get a custom white balance. This should help I would assume.

Of course its nice to use calibration. But .. the modern Merrill cameras shall behave more similar than that, without calibration.

Either something is wrong with the camera or with the usage IMHO.

So far it seems to be the camera, but we have to wait and see until some here has analysed the RAW file.

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Kendall Helmstetter Gelner
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A solution
In reply to anfat, Mar 27, 2013

I went out and shot a local fire hydrant myself with the SD-1, and DP-3m...  I was able to see the same thing, the DP-3M was red as it should be, the SD-1 hydrant was oddly orange.  Both shots used Auto white balance and neutral color mode.

The solution in my tests ended up being to use Standard, not Neutral, color mode for that image, along with setting the color adjustment dropper on something neutral (in my case a street) in the SD-1 image (I did the same thing in the DP-3M image but it had no effect).  Then the hydrant was red and the other colors matched also.  You don't have to re-shoot, just change in SPP.

I normally advocate using Neutral all the time, and in my shooting I mostly found it to be the most accurate.  I don't know what it is on the SD-1 that causes hydrant red to come out so orange in Neutral.  Perhaps over some firmware updates Standard on the SD-1 has drifted closer to being accurate than Neutral...

The hydrant in the SD-1 image was also a touch more vibrant at that point, I had to bring saturation on the SD-1 image down about -0.1 for a closer match (it was a little under then).

I also took a picture of a construction-orange / blue sign as well, and found the same thing - to have the SD-1 more closely match the DP-3M image in Neutral mode, I switched the SD-1 image to Standard color mode.

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anfat
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Re: A solution
In reply to Kendall Helmstetter Gelner, Mar 27, 2013

I have tried standard and vivid, but the reds are always orange...

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yvind Strm
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Re: Sigma SD1M wrong colors
In reply to anfat, Mar 28, 2013

anfat wrote:

Hi, I have a new SD1M that produce colors not true: some reds are orange, some greens are light blue; I've tried to change wb and to set up a personal wb, but with no result...which could be the cause?

This seems like a similar situation to the green cast issue of the SD14. With that we saw unit variations, but a camera dependent correction value in SPP fixed the issue. I recall Guenther Borgermeister reported he had to use different corrections for his 3 (?) cameras. And saw none of the issue in an other users SD14.

With this SD1 thing, Kendall verifies that the issue is real. Tom pointed to a post by Cinefeel, with a suggested correction value: -15Y +5R. (Might not be SPP, so a value has to be found there)

SO anfat, try some correction around what Cinefeel suggest that and see if you get closer. A workaround, yes, but not a big one.

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xpatUSA
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Re: Sigma SD1M wrong colors
In reply to yvind Strm, Mar 28, 2013

That orangy red is an old friend for me - I once sold a perfectly good SD9 because of it. The same cast occasionally shows up on my SD10, no idea why. Artificial lighting did it on the SD9, even under tungsten with custom WB set. I tried SPP 2, 3, 4 and 5 . . nada. CFL's, tubes, candles, halogens, nuclear bombs, you name it, no difference until I went outside and kapow! - red reds suddenly appeared, so I do understand the frustration in the OP.

And we should not really be too surprised with the SD1M:

http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sigmasd1/10 is that orange or what?

Yeah, I know, earlier version of SPP, I guess  . . .

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xpatUSA
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A quick exposure test, SD10 reds for what it's worth . .
In reply to xpatUSA, Mar 28, 2013

I shot the card at ISO 200, bracketing from -3 to +3 in 1EV steps, here is a screen capture:

The shots above 0 were blown out and were discarded. The white balance was set from the gray patch on the card in ACR 5.4 and opened in PSE6 from which the screen capture was done. Each exposure was adjusted in ACR to make the histograms similar. The under-exposed red at the top looks quite familiar. That red has no blue in it, so something got clipped somehow. RGB equaled 195, 70, 0. Hue and Sat were 22 deg, 100%, obviously wrong.

Perhaps the OP should measure his orange-colored reds' RGB values (not with a screen picker) and deduce something from that?

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Kendall Helmstetter Gelner
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Re: A solution
In reply to anfat, Mar 28, 2013

anfat wrote:

I have tried standard and vivid, but the reds are always orange...

Odd, hopefully someone that gets the RAW files can figure out something.  Standard made the object quite red in my case.

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Kendall Helmstetter Gelner
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Re: Some things to check
In reply to anfat, Mar 28, 2013

anfat wrote:

the same picture with the sd1m and with dp2m...that one shot with dp2m has true colors...

That really looks similar to the case I had.  If you change the color mode to "Standard" and click the white balance dropper on the black gravel, the slide should go red... you'll notice that in the image as you have it from the SD-1, the rocks are very blue compared to the more neutral DP-2M image.

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SandyF
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Re: examples of my DP2Merrill reds
In reply to Kendall Helmstetter Gelner, Mar 28, 2013

FWIW I've had no problems with reds from the DP2Merrill. Here's a train caboose that is really 'hot' red in the bright sun http://www.flickr.com/photos/sandyfleischmann/8078358553/ and in my DP2Merrill set on flickr I have many antique autos in a museum in Nashville. Really good reds on those with little editing http://www.flickr.com/photos/sandyfleischmann/sets/72157630945647842/

The only reds I have from the loaner SD1 are shots of red oriental rugs, which are fine, true tones (not online) and a couple of me in my red coat in Death Valley, taken by my husband. Coat color is exactly right looking at the RAWs (not online).

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Hardy Steiner
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Re: Custom white balance
In reply to Roland Karlsson, Mar 28, 2013

It would good if we had the X3F file to analyze this. There could be several reasons.

These pictures were taken at a different time of the day (the playground). First one looks more like overcast, whereas the second one seems to be more in sunlight.

Other important points to understand:

Which firmware are the cameras on?

Has the exposure been adjusted in SPP ... or fill light been used? Are all sliders on 0?

There might be really a difference, not counting it out, but without having a look at the X3F files it is difficult to say.

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mburns
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Re: Sigma SD1M wrong colors
In reply to anfat, Mar 28, 2013

It's simply that your SD1M is overexposing as compared to your other camera. Before anything else, get that fixed.

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Roland Karlsson
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Re: Sigma SD1M wrong colors
In reply to mburns, Mar 28, 2013

mburns wrote:

It's simply that your SD1M is overexposing as compared to your other camera. Before anything else, get that fixed.

Thats quite likely.

The red channel might be out of gamut. The red channel (in the RAW data) might even be over exposed. Its not necessarily so. But ... if it is over exposed, then it can be seen in the RAW data.

Try to expose 1 or 2 stops less and see whats happening.

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anfat
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Re: Sigma SD1M wrong colors
In reply to Roland Karlsson, Mar 28, 2013

It happen only that the orange is darker but orange too..

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Roland Karlsson
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Re: Sigma SD1M wrong colors
In reply to anfat, Mar 28, 2013

anfat wrote:

It happen only that the orange is darker but orange too..

OK

Red becoming orange or pink is an old Foveon problem. It has been seen for SD14 and at least for the earlier DP cameras. And obviously some here have seen it with their SD1M cameras. Strange that they have not told it already. If its common, it might be an important information for potential buyers.

As far as I understand, you always get it. Which, of course, not is acceptable. So ... you have to do something. If you cant find any solution ... I assume you have to contact Sigma about it.

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diolus
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Re: Sigma SD1M wrong colors
In reply to Roland Karlsson, Mar 28, 2013

Is that inconsistency which made me get rid of my sd15 and thought would get better before I bought another Foveon based camera but I guess I'll have to wait a little longer.

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Park70
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Re: Sigma SD1M wrong colors
In reply to diolus, Mar 29, 2013

Camera SD1M

Red, Orange and White in both photos taken near midday with light Cumulus clouds

Center - Weighted average metering

Camera settings: Standard, EV - 0.7, f8, 1/250 sec, 18-250 Sigma lens at 43mm

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