HS50EXR and F900EXR reviews ...

Started Mar 27, 2013 | Discussions
Kim Letkeman
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Re: part 6 -- how about that reach?
In reply to nobbyball, Mar 30, 2013

nobbyball wrote:

From the birder/photographer perspective - you are right about the great reach to get that sort of detail from that distance. Wow. Even more impressive is that the bird is a Merlin which is the smallest of the falcons/hawks you'd get in your area (not much bigger than American Robin).

I am now slightly annoyed at you as I'd given up on the HS50 as not being special enough over the HS30 I have. This however...

Yes, I apologize for finding its weaknesses before its strengths

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Kim Letkeman
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Re: part 7 -- the raw hack
In reply to AdamT, Mar 30, 2013

AdamT wrote:

I used to hack RAWs with a HEX Editor , I`d have thought swapping the 5 in HS50EXR to a 2 or 3 would have worked

Duh ... you are correct

But the issue would have remained the same. Truly different sensor means Adobe's internal transformations simply don't work.

I'm hoping Obiwan Adobe will come through in time ...

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Kim Letkeman
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Re: part 8 -- astro (starry fields and looking forward to Comet ISON)
In reply to alexisgreat, Mar 30, 2013

alexisgreat wrote:

Kim, both the moon and Saturn looking breathtaking! This lens really is sharp and it looks like it even shows detail on Saturn at ISO 3200!

And do remember that Saturn was perhaps 10 degrees above and to the right of a 3/4 moon last night, so it's not like conditions for my brand of "pulling the shots out of my astrophotography" were ideal ...

I hope it will surprise with its long exposure (starry field) performance too.

Still a half inch sensor .... but yes, it might be ok for slightly long exposures at base ISO.

The skies remain crystal clear right now, but there are many hours again until sunset, so there is no telling what we will see later.

I want to use it on that Great Comet we have coming in November (it's supposed to be the brightest comet in over 100 years, brighter than the  full moon and even visible by daylight!) Its tail is going to pass through both Saturn and Mars- what wonderful photo ops!

Yeah, it would sure be fun on a cheap alt-az mount like a Cube ...

During August 2013, it should become bright enough to be visible through small telescopes or binoculars, becoming visible to the naked eye by late October or early November and remaining so until mid-January 2014.[7][12]

Interesting to shoot it slightly wide field during the Perseids ...

In a recent study, 1,897 observations were used to create a secular light curve. The resulting plot shows the comet increasing its brightness relatively quickly at R+4.35 [Unit?].[18] If this continues up to perihelion, the comet could reach magnitude −17, brighter than the full moon.

Now that has some serious fun potential ...

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AdamT
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Re: part 7 -- the raw hack
In reply to Kim Letkeman, Mar 30, 2013

But the issue would have remained the same. Truly different sensor means Adobe's internal transformations simply don't work.

I`m sure they`ll come through - but in time ?- hope so .. I`m amazed that as it`s a truly different sensor, that it seems to perform the same as its predecessors (or looks like no real improvement anyway)

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Me Tarzan
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Re: part 8 -- astro
In reply to Kim Letkeman, Mar 30, 2013

Ssheesh. Crackin good work, Kim.

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Kim Letkeman
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part 9 -- daylight indoor LvsM ISO ladder using GOOD settings
In reply to Kim Letkeman, Mar 30, 2013

This is such a tiresome debate, but it makes sense to go through this again using what I have learned so far with the HS50's JPEG engine ...

So here you are ...

http://kimletkeman.blogspot.ca/2013/03/hs50exr-and-f900exr-review-part-9.html

Note that M wins easily, as is always the case in a thorough and fair test

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wymjym
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Re: part 9 -- daylight indoor LvsM ISO ladder using GOOD settings
In reply to Kim Letkeman, Mar 30, 2013

Kim Letkeman wrote:

This is such a tiresome debate, but it makes sense to go through this again using what I have learned so far with the HS50's JPEG engine ...

So here you are ...

http://kimletkeman.blogspot.ca/2013/03/hs50exr-and-f900exr-review-part-9.html

Note that M wins easily, as is always the case in a thorough and fair test

-- hide signature --

the debate will continue (for me at least).....I generally save my XS1 files @ 1800 x ????, regardless if shot M or L size. I have seen evidence that L size can be sharper and more defined in certain situations but then just when I thought I had found the holy grail I'd find another shot (similar scene/lighting) and the M size was clearly better.

I believe that the fuji processing is the reason for my confusing observations.

I appreciate all of your time and effort.

If you applied the pksharpening to the L size in your last test....would that change the apparent advantage the upsized M is showing?

wj

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Gingertwist
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Re: part 9 -- daylight indoor LvsM ISO ladder using GOOD settings
In reply to wymjym, Mar 30, 2013

Hi,

Any chance of doing more of a review of the F900? Would be very much appreciated.

Thanks,

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jcmarfilph
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Re: part 9 -- daylight indoor LvsM ISO ladder using GOOD settings
In reply to Kim Letkeman, Mar 30, 2013

Kim Letkeman wrote:

This is such a tiresome debate, but it makes sense to go through this again using what I have learned so far with the HS50's JPEG engine ...

So here you are ...

http://kimletkeman.blogspot.ca/2013/03/hs50exr-and-f900exr-review-part-9.html

Note that M wins easily, as is always the case in a thorough and fair test

-- hide signature --

> Kim Letkeman whined:

A note on the whole L versus M debate. Don’t be fooled by the forceful opinions you see where L “crushes” M and blurry images are posted to prove it. These images are invariably poorly shot, with no attempt to sharpen up the M size image after upsizing (showing a profound lack of skills and understanding of what interpolation does to an image) and with little attention to surfaces, dark subject, and very fine details.

> Blurry buildings do not an argument make, except on the Internet. So please just examine these closely. I shoot M size exclusively, and nothing I have seen from the HS50 has changed my mind, except perhaps when shooting with factory settings. Then maybe it does not matter because I think there is a bug in the firmware. But if you drop noise reduction to –2, and shoot every else at 0, then M mode seems to shoot very nicely.

Lol. 1/900s shot of a building blurry? I wasted time looking at your samples but it clearly showed L size has more details on the note and sharper too? Again who will believe in your lousy comparison? You cannot magically produce a detail that is not there.

Just for goodness sake, stop with your delusional claim. You've ridiculed yourself once again. LSize is sharper and has more detail than upsized M size.

-=[ Joms ]=-

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KJaay
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Re: part 8 -- astro
In reply to Kim Letkeman, Mar 30, 2013

wow on your moon shots!!

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KJ

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Kim Letkeman
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Re: part 9 -- daylight indoor LvsM ISO ladder using GOOD settings
In reply to wymjym, Mar 31, 2013

wymjym wrote:

Kim Letkeman wrote:

This is such a tiresome debate, but it makes sense to go through this again using what I have learned so far with the HS50's JPEG engine ...

So here you are ...

http://kimletkeman.blogspot.ca/2013/03/hs50exr-and-f900exr-review-part-9.html

Note that M wins easily, as is always the case in a thorough and fair test

-- hide signature --

the debate will continue (for me at least).....I generally save my XS1 files @ 1800 x ????, regardless if shot M or L size. I have seen evidence that L size can be sharper and more defined in certain situations but then just when I thought I had found the holy grail I'd find another shot (similar scene/lighting) and the M size was clearly better.

I believe that the fuji processing is the reason for my confusing observations.

I appreciate all of your time and effort.

If you applied the pksharpening to the L size in your last test....would that change the apparent advantage the upsized M is showing?

No ... the noise in the L shots (it's always there, sometimes just under the threshold of visibility) that is responsible for the issues with surfaces and edges sharpens really poorly.

For simple subjects with a lot of contrast (bringing noise floor far down) you can probably do ok with L size ... but the advantages -- when they exist -- are minor. The disadvantages pile up in a hurry and I personally see nowhere near an appropriate risk / benefit ratio there ...

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Kim Letkeman
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Re: part 9 -- daylight indoor LvsM ISO ladder using GOOD settings
In reply to Gingertwist, Mar 31, 2013

Gingertwist wrote:

Hi,

Any chance of doing more of a review of the F900? Would be very much appreciated.

Yeah ... I've pretty much settled on nice settings for the HS50, so I can get back to the F900 Now

I had to take the detour because the HS was looking like a dog at first. Of course, it is nothing of the sort.

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Kim Letkeman
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Re: part 9 -- daylight indoor LvsM ISO ladder using GOOD settings
In reply to jcmarfilph, Mar 31, 2013

jcmarfilph wrote:

Kim Letkeman wrote:

This is such a tiresome debate, but it makes sense to go through this again using what I have learned so far with the HS50's JPEG engine ...

So here you are ...

http://kimletkeman.blogspot.ca/2013/03/hs50exr-and-f900exr-review-part-9.html

Note that M wins easily, as is always the case in a thorough and fair test

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> Kim Letkeman whined:

And Joms posted the same old dregs of an argument that Kim did not even bother to read.

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Tim39
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Re: part 9 -- daylight indoor LvsM ISO ladder using GOOD settings
In reply to Kim Letkeman, Mar 31, 2013

Kim Letkeman wrote:

This is such a tiresome debate, but it makes sense to go through this again using what I have learned so far with the HS50's JPEG engine ...

So here you are ...

http://kimletkeman.blogspot.ca/2013/03/hs50exr-and-f900exr-review-part-9.html

Note that M wins easily, as is always the case in a thorough and fair test

-- hide signature --

Great work you're doing, Kim: a real service to the forum.

No quarrel from me on M vs. L, but things sure head south in a hurry after ISO 800 -- both sizes.

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Tim

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alexisgreat
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Re: part 8 -- astro (starry fields and looking forward to Comet ISON)
In reply to Kim Letkeman, Mar 31, 2013

Sure is- most of those other recent bright comets were much more easily seen in the southern hemisphere- there is speculation that this is a piece of the Great Comet of 1680- which was spectacular in the Northern Hemisphere.  It will reach maximum brightness on Thanksgiving Day!

http://www.space.com/17762-newfound-comet-dazzling-2013-display-c2012s1.html
The most exciting aspect of this new comet concerns its preliminary orbit, which bears a striking resemblance to that of the “Great Comet of 1680.” That comet put on a dazzling show; it was glimpsed in daylight and later, as it moved away from the sun, it threw off a brilliantly long tail that stretched up from the western twilight sky after sunset like a narrow searchlight beam for some 70 degrees of arc. (A person's clenched fist, held at arm’s length, covers roughly 10 degrees of sky.)
The fact that the orbits are so similar seems to suggest Comet ISON and the Great Comet of 1680 could related or perhaps even the same object.
Comet ISON will be barely visible to the unaided eye when it is in the predawn night sky, positioned against the stars of Leo in October 2013.
On Oct. 16 it will be passing very near both Mars and the bright star Regulus — both can be used as benchmarks to sighting the comet. In November, it could be as bright as third-magnitude when it passes very close to the bright first-magnitude star Spica in Virgo.
The few days surrounding the comet’s closest approach to the sun on Nov. 28, 2013, are likely to be most interesting. It will whirl rapidly around the sun in a hairpin-like curve and perhaps becomes a dazzlingly bright (negative-magnitude) object.
The comet will then whirl north after perihelion and become visible during December both in the evening sky after sunset and in the morning sky before sunrise. Just how bright it will be and how long the tail may get during this time frame is anybody’s guess, but there is hope that it could evolve into a memorable celestial showpiece.

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alexisgreat
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Re: part 8 -- astro (starry fields and looking forward to Comet ISON)
In reply to Kim Letkeman, Mar 31, 2013

Kim, about the separation of rings from Saturn test- I think you or someone else did the same with the HS10 awhile back + SONY TC, was that you or do you remember when they were posted here? I remember whomever that person was also talked about the benefits of stacking images, and he did a 5 image stack if I remember correctly.

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Re: part 8 -- astro (starry fields and looking forward to Comet ISON)
In reply to alexisgreat, Mar 31, 2013

Sure is- most of those other recent bright comets were much more easily seen in the southern hemisphere- there is speculation that this is a piece of the Great Comet of 1680- which was spectacular in the Northern Hemisphere.  It will reach maximum brightness on Thanksgiving Day!

http://www.space.com/17762-newfound-comet-dazzling-2013-display-c2012s1.html
The most exciting aspect of this new comet concerns its preliminary orbit, which bears a striking resemblance to that of the “Great Comet of 1680.” That comet put on a dazzling show; it was glimpsed in daylight and later, as it moved away from the sun, it threw off a brilliantly long tail that stretched up from the western twilight sky after sunset like a narrow searchlight beam for some 70 degrees of arc. (A person's clenched fist, held at arm’s length, covers roughly 10 degrees of sky.)
The fact that the orbits are so similar seems to suggest Comet ISON and the Great Comet of 1680 could related or perhaps even the same object.
Comet ISON will be barely visible to the unaided eye when it is in the predawn night sky, positioned against the stars of Leo in October 2013.
On Oct. 16 it will be passing very near both Mars and the bright star Regulus — both can be used as benchmarks to sighting the comet. In November, it could be as bright as third-magnitude when it passes very close to the bright first-magnitude star Spica in Virgo.
The few days surrounding the comet’s closest approach to the sun on Nov. 28, 2013, are likely to be most interesting. It will whirl rapidly around the sun in a hairpin-like curve and perhaps becomes a dazzlingly bright (negative-magnitude) object.
The comet will then whirl north after perihelion and become visible during December both in the evening sky after sunset and in the morning sky before sunrise. Just how bright it will be and how long the tail may get during this time frame is anybody’s guess, but there is hope that it could evolve into a memorable celestial showpiece.

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Pretty exciting

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Nightwings
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Am I missing something in the translation here?
In reply to jcmarfilph, Mar 31, 2013

jcmarfilph wrote:

> Kim Letkeman whined:

A note on the whole L versus M debate. Don’t be fooled by the forceful opinions you see where L “crushes” M and blurry images are posted to prove it. These images are invariably poorly shot, with no attempt to sharpen up the M size image after upsizing (showing a profound lack of skills and understanding of what interpolation does to an image) and with little attention to surfaces, dark subject, and very fine details.

> Blurry buildings do not an argument make, except on the Internet. So please just examine these closely. I shoot M size exclusively, and nothing I have seen from the HS50 has changed my mind, except perhaps when shooting with factory settings. Then maybe it does not matter because I think there is a bug in the firmware. But if you drop noise reduction to –2, and shoot every else at 0, then M mode seems to shoot very nicely.

Lol. 1/900s shot of a building blurry? I wasted time looking at your samples but it clearly showed L size has more details on the note and sharper too? Again who will believe in your lousy comparison? You cannot magically produce a detail that is not there.

Just for goodness sake, stop with your delusional claim. You've ridiculed yourself once again. LSize is sharper and has more detail than upsized M size.

-=[ Joms ]=-

What are you guys arguing about? Clearly the right sided samples are yielding more detail... and depending on what part of the image ... A LOT more detail.... albeit with a bit more noise, but topaz denoise would clean that up nicely, and still retain the detail. Or am I missing another point in this discussion that I'm not aware of?

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alexisgreat
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Re: Am I missing something in the translation here?
In reply to Nightwings, Mar 31, 2013

NW did you or someone else you know post pics of Saturn with the P510? Can you repost them please? I want to compare them to the HS50 image.

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Nightwings
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Re: Am I missing something in the translation here?
In reply to alexisgreat, Mar 31, 2013

alexisgreat wrote:

NW did you or someone else you know post pics of Saturn with the P510? Can you repost them please? I want to compare them to the HS50 image.

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