HS50EXR and F900EXR reviews ...

Started Mar 27, 2013 | Discussions
Kim Letkeman
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part 3 -- ISO ladder
In reply to Kim Letkeman, Mar 28, 2013

By  a single lamp held about 3 feet away. So not super low light, but not that bright either. And nasty color temp ...

http://kimletkeman.blogspot.ca/2013/03/hs50exr-and-f900exr-review-part-3-iso.html

The HS50 really struggles. Quite surprising ...

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alexisgreat
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Re: part 3 -- ISO ladder
In reply to Kim Letkeman, Mar 28, 2013

BSI/FSI differences might be at play here- the results are "illuminating" to say the least......

I cant wait for Ralph to chime in, a few months ago we were discussing the possible differences with this new sensor.  But if the F900 does better than at least some of the blame would need to go to that new ultrazoom lens of the 50.

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alexisgreat
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Re: part 3 -- ISO ladder
In reply to alexisgreat, Mar 28, 2013

Kim - whoa! I just saw the results and it looks like the HS50 applies a massive amount of NR- were these shot with NR Low Sharpening Soft? If they are at default, it could account for some of this clumpiness.

From your memory of the HS25, is the HS50 NR a lot worse than the 25's at the same settings?

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LTZ470
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Re: Focus Peaking HS50
In reply to alexisgreat, Mar 28, 2013

Would love to see the focus peaking utilised on the HS50 versus AF...so a tripod mounted HS50 at say 30ft from a subject with some depth I.E. something 3 ft in length at 30ft and focus with AF taking a three AF shots and then using Focus Peaking at a specific point on the 3 ft length taking three shots just to see how effective it is...it works really well on the Sony's

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alexisgreat
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Re: Focus Peaking HS50
In reply to LTZ470, Mar 28, 2013

Is focus peaking like focus confirmation? On older Nikon and Olympus compacts, the area under focus was magnified and sharpened with a very nice distance meter under the image.

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Wellington100
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Re: part 2
In reply to Kim Letkeman, Mar 28, 2013

Kim Letkeman wrote:

http://kimletkeman.blogspot.ca/2013/03/hs50exr-and-f900exr-review-part-2.html

I looked at details and L versus M. The HS50 is not impressing so far. Pretty weak in the acuity area. I am starting to understand why I have not seen much from this camera so far. Everything is soft because, well, everything is soft

The F900, on the other hand ... wow ...

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You never mentioned the colours of the D770, they are way different to the 2 newer cameras. To me the F900 already looks like another F series classic in the making. Its a handsome camera now that its lost the F770 hump which was not terribly pretty and the images are looking good.

To me the achilles heel of the HS series is the F series which offers almost as much in a tiny form factor plus in this case what appears to be a sharper lens that will have more pop in good light

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LTZ470
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Re: Focus Peaking HS50
In reply to alexisgreat, Mar 28, 2013

alexisgreat wrote:

Is focus peaking like focus confirmation? On older Nikon and Olympus compacts, the area under focus was magnified and sharpened with a very nice distance meter under the image.

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Not exactly Alex, on the Sony;s you set the camera for DMF, when you half press you get AF confirmation with Green Box...then turn the MF Ring on the lens and the image will magnify and dependant upon which color for Peaking you have chosen you will see a blanket or highlights with that color in the EVF or LCD on the subject then you can adjust the Peaking so you see the Peaking Color say in the subjects eyes...so you know that you have acquired focus on the eyes not the nose or hair or ears etc...it's a way to get accurate focus and is excellent for Close Ups and Macros where we tend to get back or front focus and then view the shot and missed the eyes of the subject...it even works with MF so it is VERY useful...

Focus Peaking

https://www.google.com/search?q=Focus+Peaking+Sony&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

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alexisgreat
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Re: Focus Peaking HS50
In reply to LTZ470, Mar 28, 2013

Wow this is a very useful feature for super macros also- where it's always been difficult to judge the point of focus before taking the shot!

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alexisgreat
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Re: Extreme zoom lenses
In reply to Wellington100, Mar 28, 2013

Looks like the F series are the true heirs to the S100FS (along with the X-S1).

The more zoom you add to the lens the more prone it is to aberrations- my question is how do companies like Canon and Nikon avoid these issues with an even longer zoom (50x)?  And why cant Fuji make lens like that?

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jcmarfilph
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Re: part 3 -- ISO ladder
In reply to alexisgreat, Mar 28, 2013

alexisgreat wrote:

Kim - whoa! I just saw the results and it looks like the HS50 applies a massive amount of NR- were these shot with NR Low Sharpening Soft? If they are at default, it could account for some of this clumpiness.

From your memory of the HS25, is the HS50 NR a lot worse than the 25's at the same settings?

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Prolly an excited user's mistake. How can we tell the accuracy of these tests if original files are not provided. Are the settings the same? Are the focus points the same?

-=[ Joms ]=-

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Ralph McKenzie
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Re: Extreme zoom lenses
In reply to alexisgreat, Mar 28, 2013

Careful what you wish for Alex

I've just spent the best part of an hour looking at the images Kim posted in his tests.

So a quick summary (as I see it)

  • The F900 in M mode smashes the other Fuji's including the HS50 for image quality and acuity.
  • The F770 outperforms the HS50 at high ISO, far to much clumping and lost detail in the HS50
  • The F900 holds up pretty well, but up to ISO 3200 the nod would still go to the F770. 
  • Color retention and saturation between the new Fuji's and the G5 are very even.
I'm not liking what I'm seeing here in the HS50, and Kim's tests would agree with Dave's feeling that its not that good IQ wise. If this is indeed the case and Kim's tests continue to show IQ issues with the HS50 then we have another possible Fuji lemon on our hands. At this point there is virtually nothing to convince me the the HS50 is a good buy. However some may remember the original issues Fuji had when the HS20 was introduced, with the image quality really not good enough until we had a couple of firmware updates, so all may yet not be lost. The other thing that we have yet to see is just how good a RAW shooter this camera is, and what sort of end product can be obtained. As yet this is largely unknown. Should it transpire that its an excellent RAW shooter then I for one would have to rethink a purchase of an HS50 considering how good Fuji Jpegs usually are, as I don't relish the thought of having to spend even more time on post processing images. Until I see images that can equal or exceed these from an HS50 I will retain the services of my aging HS20. So there's a challenge for you HS50 shooters. And don't use macro lenses if doing a macro, just the standard lens.

HS20 @ ISO 400 m 3:4 - 43mm EFL @ f5.0

HS20, EXR DR 4:3 @ ISO 100

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AdamT
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Re: part 3 -- ISO ladder
In reply to jcmarfilph, Mar 28, 2013

Prolly an excited user's mistake. How can we tell the accuracy of these tests if original files are not provided. Are the settings the same? Are the focus points the same?

Focus points and settings apart from Exposure and ISO are irrelevant as this is just a noise test . Kim will test the cams on Standard Image Parameters (NR, Sharpening etc) unless he`s stated otherwise , if he didn`t work like this, Manufacturers wouldn `t send him cameras .

At ISO1600, The F770EXR looks the best of the 1/2" EXR Fujis followed by the F900 - the HS50 has too much NR , it`s not Focus issues Joms, it`s NR , the F770 Crushes it for detail - Maybe later on Kim will compare them with the NR set to LOW and see if it made the colossal difference it did with the HS20 (which was an Oil painting mess on standard NR)

On standard settings, going by Kim's tests, I`d go for the F770 of the three Fuji Pinheads across the whole ISO range . the HS50 Obviously desperately needs the NR setting LOW

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Ralph McKenzie
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Re: part 3 -- ISO ladder
In reply to AdamT, Mar 28, 2013

Nice to see I'm not the only one thinking along these lines

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PAUL TILL
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Re: part 3 -- ISO ladder
In reply to AdamT, Mar 28, 2013

There's detail and detail, look at the bank note in the image below, only the good old F200 and G5 show any detail, it's been smeared away by all the others.

Personally I don't buy a pinhead sensor camera for shooting high ISO's I would rather stick to sensible ones which is why Auto ISO400 is what I leave these on when out shooting.

I honestly don't see the point in this type of test, if you need high ISO shots take the appropriate camera. This is why Kim himself has moved to mirror-less now.

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Buhl213
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Re: part 3 -- ISO ladder
In reply to Kim Letkeman, Mar 28, 2013

Kim Letkeman wrote:

By  a single lamp held about 3 feet away. So not super low light, but not that bright either. And nasty color temp ...

http://kimletkeman.blogspot.ca/2013/03/hs50exr-and-f900exr-review-part-3-iso.html

The HS50 really struggles. Quite surprising ...

If you bring up the HS' saturation in post to match the F900, will it be equally noisy - in particular the F900's yellow at ISO1600+3200?

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Kim Letkeman
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Re: part 3 -- ISO ladder
In reply to alexisgreat, Mar 28, 2013

alexisgreat wrote:

BSI/FSI differences might be at play here- the results are "illuminating" to say the least......

No ... F900 and HS50 share a sensor ...

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Kim Letkeman
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Re: part 3 -- ISO ladder
In reply to alexisgreat, Mar 28, 2013

alexisgreat wrote:

Kim - whoa! I just saw the results and it looks like the HS50 applies a massive amount of NR- were these shot with NR Low Sharpening Soft? If they are at default, it could account for some of this clumpiness.

For the ISO ladder I shot all the cameras at default settings, as most people would out of the box.

I will have to try a settings ladder to ferret out what is going on ...

From your memory of the HS25, is the HS50 NR a lot worse than the 25's at the same settings?

Out of the box, no ... not yet. This, I suspect, is down to the lens. And do remember that sample variation plays a big part when lenses have this kind of range.

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Kim Letkeman
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Re: part 3 -- ISO ladder
In reply to jcmarfilph, Mar 28, 2013

jcmarfilph wrote:

Prolly an excited user's mistake.

You need to calm down and stop coming off as a spoiled child.

How can we tell the accuracy of these tests if original files are not provided. Are the settings the same? Are the focus points the same?

The focus point is identical for all five cameras. That is the power of the tripod and center focus.

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Kim Letkeman
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Re: part 3 -- ISO ladder
In reply to AdamT, Mar 28, 2013

AdamT wrote:

Prolly an excited user's mistake. How can we tell the accuracy of these tests if original files are not provided. Are the settings the same? Are the focus points the same?

Focus points and settings apart from Exposure and ISO are irrelevant as this is just a noise test . Kim will test the cams on Standard Image Parameters (NR, Sharpening etc) unless he`s stated otherwise , if he didn`t work like this, Manufacturers wouldn `t send him cameras .

For the ISO ladder, the cameras are all in M mode, as HR mode still is not impressing and certainly makes no sense at high ISO.

And yes, you are correct, the HS settings have been reset to mid levels so that colors and tones are what a user gets froem the box.

At ISO1600, The F770EXR looks the best of the 1/2" EXR Fujis followed by the F900 - the HS50 has too much NR , it`s not Focus issues Joms, it`s NR , the F770 Crushes it for detail - Maybe later on Kim will compare them with the NR set to LOW and see if it made the colossal difference it did with the HS20 (which was an Oil painting mess on standard NR)

I will have to perform an NR ladder etc ... yes. We need to ferret out what is happening.

It is also more important than ever to try to hack the RAW files and process them in Lightroom.

On standard settings, going by Kim's tests, I`d go for the F770 of the three Fuji Pinheads across the whole ISO range . the HS50 Obviously desperately needs the NR setting LOW

The F900 impresses me too ... great lens on this sample. Although I have not yet played with them at full wide.

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Kim Letkeman
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Re: part 3 -- ISO ladder
In reply to PAUL TILL, Mar 28, 2013

PAUL TILL wrote:

There's detail and detail, look at the bank note in the image below, only the good old F200 and G5 show any detail, it's been smeared away by all the others.

Sensor size still dominates at lower ISO. Then JPEG engine quality takes over.

Personally I don't buy a pinhead sensor camera for shooting high ISO's I would rather stick to sensible ones which is why Auto ISO400 is what I leave these on when out shooting.

I shoot RAW at high ISOs. But others do not.

I honestly don't see the point in this type of test, if you need high ISO shots take the appropriate camera. This is why Kim himself has moved to mirror-less now.

I shoot high ISOs regularly at concerts. And this shows me that RAW is still the only viable options. But for Facebook shots, the new cameras have excellent saturation, so I think I will have to augment the tests with a reality check ...

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