First Impression on NX300 (unpacked)

Started Mar 27, 2013 | Discussions
Ariston
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Re: First Impression on NX300 (unpacked)
In reply to tjobbe, Mar 27, 2013

if all goes well, I'll be getting my copy tommorow. otherwise, it's monday.

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tecnoworld
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Re: First Impression on NX300 (unpacked)
In reply to Ariston, Mar 27, 2013

Great! Please post your impressions asap  also about focus peaking, which tjobbe did not mention.

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photoreddi
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Re: First Impression on NX300 (unpacked)
In reply to Ariston, Mar 28, 2013

Ariston wrote:

photoreddi wrote:

Ariston wrote:

monkeybrain wrote:

Nice! Hope you enjoy your new camera. Obviously lots of requests in the thread, hope you don't mind me adding to them by asking for some shots that really test out the dynamic range.

Also, can anyone explain the significance of the Linux OS on the camera? Will this give us any new options, apps, hacks etc?

Linux OS, smaller, simpler, faster. it practically fully utilizes the camera's potential. it also, as mentioned opens up the camera for possible hacks or updates that would make the camera work better or perform certain tasks. e.g. magic lantern, video recording limit, shutterspeed,etc...

Nope. Whether it's implemented in the CPU's machine code or using a higher level language program running under the camera's operating system, hacks (like CHDK) rely on intentionally designed back doors. This could be a button sequence on the camera, initiated either when powering the camera on or pressing button combinations while inside the menu system, or looking for a specific language file at power-on at a particular location on the camera's memory card. If such a back door is available, the hack could be written in either the CPU's machine language or a compiled or interpreted that's compatible with the OS, which could be linux or any other OS. Well, maybe not Windows, unless it's a really old, lightweight, stripped version such as Windows 3.x that I once had running on an old HP 200LX DOS based palmtop computer. Like many more recent P&S cameras, it ran on two alkaline or Ni-Cd AA batteries, which could last for up to about 40 hours. For this to work, your hackable camera would probably need to use an Intel compatible CPU.

actually there is a backdoor with the NX cameras, although Samsung decided to disable the one on the newer NX cameras with their recent firmware updates. using an open-source software rather than propriety would open the possibility of using 3rd party mods.

There are backdoors and there are backdoors. I'm aware of and have used the kind that let you access normally hidden menus that allow you to enable or disable features and change default parameters. The type of backdoor that I'm talking about would allow you to have the camera execute external code that's designed to supplement or replace the camera's existing firmware and/or microcode. As far as you're aware, does this kind of backdoor exist for any of Samsung's cameras?

Although I no longer have the link to it, a couple of years ago I read that the CPUs used by Canon's cameras have hardware features that allow CHDK to work, but the CPUs used by Nikon's cameras don't. It's only an assumption, but it might be memory protection features that prevent code from executing outside of specified memory areas, the kind that are available for example with Intel's x86 CPUs.

In computer science, hierarchical protection domains,[1][2] often called protection rings, are mechanisms to protect data and functionality from faults (fault tolerance) and malicious behaviour (computer security). This approach is diametrically opposite to that of capability-based security.
Computer operating systems provide different levels of access to resources. A protection ring is one of two or more hierarchical levels or layers of privilege within the architecture of a computer system. This is generally hardware-enforced by some CPU architectures that provide different CPU modes at the hardware or microcode level. Rings are arranged in a hierarchy from most privileged (most trusted, usually numbered zero) to least privileged (least trusted, usually with the highest ring number). On most operating systems, Ring 0 is the level with the most privileges and interacts most directly with the physical hardware such as the CPU and memory.
Special gates between rings are provided to allow an outer ring to access an inner ring's resources in a predefined manner, as opposed to allowing arbitrary usage. Correctly gating access between rings can improve security by preventing programs from one ring or privilege level from misusing resources intended for programs in another. For example, spyware running as a user program in Ring 3 should be prevented from turning on a web camera without informing the user, since hardware access should be a Ring 1 function reserved for device drivers. Programs such as web browsers running in higher numbered rings must request access to the network, a resource restricted to a lower numbered ring.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ring_%28computer_security%29

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ihkim
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Re: First Impression on NX300 (unpacked)
In reply to tjobbe, Mar 28, 2013

EDIT: the OS running on the NX300 seems to be some LINUX version as it displays some license terms for OpenSource so its most likely Tizen running on it as suspected.

NX300 is running on TizenOS (linux core) with Exynos 4412 (quad core) which is used for Galaxy S3.

If you are interested, you can download NX300 firmware from Samsung website and open it with Hex-editor such as Hexplorer. You can easily find "tizen" or "MDK4412".

And, don't worry about boot-up time. One of NX300 user reported start up time is around 1 sec.

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Ariston
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Re: First Impression on NX300 (unpacked)
In reply to photoreddi, Mar 28, 2013

I believe there is. but the question would be if the company itself would allow such instructions to be accessible. as you pointed out, the most possible reason is memory protection. it doesn't have to be an intel cpu that could allow such programming to run. besides, the cpu's now despite their size are much more capable and complex in performing a lot of operations despite the simplest minimalistic approach it wants to run those things. the idea of firmware updates in cameras alone is already a clue but the question is whether Samsung would allow other 3rd party instructions. I have in the past was able to use 3rd party hardware devices such as flash and wireless trancievers on the NX cameras. for some reason, Samsung managed to disallow those devices on the NX via firmware updates.

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viking79
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Re: First Impression on NX300 (unpacked)
In reply to ihkim, Mar 28, 2013

ihkim wrote:

EDIT: the OS running on the NX300 seems to be some LINUX version as it displays some license terms for OpenSource so its most likely Tizen running on it as suspected.

NX300 is running on TizenOS (linux core) with Exynos 4412 (quad core) which is used for Galaxy S3.

If you are interested, you can download NX300 firmware from Samsung website and open it with Hex-editor such as Hexplorer. You can easily find "tizen" or "MDK4412".

And, don't worry about boot-up time. One of NX300 user reported start up time is around 1 sec.

Excellent, thanks.  I suppose it is because the Galaxy Camera is running Android, and whatever minimal linux kernel the NX300 uses takes much less time to start?

Eric

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ihkim
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Re: First Impression on NX300 (unpacked)
In reply to viking79, Mar 28, 2013

viking79 wrote:

ihkim wrote:

EDIT: the OS running on the NX300 seems to be some LINUX version as it displays some license terms for OpenSource so its most likely Tizen running on it as suspected.

NX300 is running on TizenOS (linux core) with Exynos 4412 (quad core) which is used for Galaxy S3.

If you are interested, you can download NX300 firmware from Samsung website and open it with Hex-editor such as Hexplorer. You can easily find "tizen" or "MDK4412".

And, don't worry about boot-up time. One of NX300 user reported start up time is around 1 sec.

Excellent, thanks.  I suppose it is because the Galaxy Camera is running Android, and whatever minimal linux kernel the NX300 uses takes much less time to start?

Eric

-- hide signature --

I never saw an ugly thing in my life: for let the form of an object
be what it may - light, shade, and perspective will always make it
beautiful. - John Constable (quote)
See my Blog at: http://www.erphotoreview.com/ (bi-weekly)
Flickr Photostream: http://www.flickr.com/photos/28177041@N03/ (updated daily)

I guess NX300 has different boot-up method from Android OS. NX300 uses a kind of snap shot method. The boot is not like conventional "booting". Instead of "booting", the method just dumps stored memory snap shot to run-time memory.

That's why the boot sequence is so quick. The explanation might not be accurate enough.

The bottom line is that you don't need to worry about "booting delay".

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tjobbe
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Re: First Impression on NX300 (unpacked)
In reply to ihkim, Mar 28, 2013

Some more updates from todays shooting although I haven't processed images yet as they load on my PC now.

-> the touch screen is a nice feature with some big "but" as you can easily/accidentialy hit one of the touch functions on the left side that open the menue when you try to hold the camera as other NX before. I believe I have to get used to it but I hit that menue more often in one shooting than I accentially pressed the record button on the NX1000 in the last three/four months.

-> you can hold the 85mm nearly as "comfortable" as with the NX20

-> the tilting screen is usefull but I prefer the fully articulated one featured on the NX20 allthough the added 0,3" added to the NX300 is well used with add on screen options for direct access to e.g. the touch AF config.

-> the camera is very responsive, which gets directly visible when you swap with the NX20 (which I had with me with the 16mm pancake mounted)

-> boot up time is quick  , very quick

-> I currently check some ISO3200 OOC JPEGS I took with low noice reductiion settings and they are usable different to before

-> the NX300 allows full in camera RAW conversion incl some "automatic optimisation" setting which produced some reasonable JPEG so the engine as such is able to produce some good results at ISO3200.

-> I took roughly 450 pictures with all non OiS lenses (45 and 85mm) and the battery charge indicator still shows three bars so I cannot complain about that.

-> I do have the feeling that the buffer is much managed better compared to before NX20/NX200 but there is still room for improvement. I used the new Samsung 32GB UHS1 45mbit/s r/w SD card and had nothing to complain. The AF was ok in low light....

A very good first impression ! More incl images are to come.

Cheers, Tjobbe

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photoreddi
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Re: First Impression on NX300 (unpacked)
In reply to Ariston, Mar 28, 2013

Ariston wrote:

I believe there is. but the question would be if the company itself would allow such instructions to be accessible. as you pointed out, the most possible reason is memory protection. it doesn't have to be an intel cpu that could allow such programming to run. besides, the cpu's now despite their size are much more capable and complex in performing a lot of operations despite the simplest minimalistic approach it wants to run those things. the idea of firmware updates in cameras alone is already a clue but the question is whether Samsung would allow other 3rd party instructions. I have in the past was able to use 3rd party hardware devices such as flash and wireless trancievers on the NX cameras. for some reason, Samsung managed to disallow those devices on the NX via firmware updates.

Right, I recall people complaining about flashes not working after firmware updates. I guess that I wasn't clear enough about the Intel CPU's (and similar protection with other brand CPUs) memory protection unless I misunderstood what you wrote above. It wasn't that Intel's CPUs allow custom programs to run, but that they can be programmed at a low level to prevent custom code (hacks) from running except in designated memory areas, or prevented from running anywhere at all. But even if memory protection was inhibited so all memory could be accessed by hacks, there would still have to be a backdoor or the hack wouldn't have a way to get started. I think that by not designing cameras to run user written programs, camera manufacturers are squandering a golden opportunity. Apple's iPhones and Android phones are remarkably successful in large part because they allow this. Samsung's Galaxy camera/phone is a step in the right direction. Maybe this is a sleeping giant that just got a wake up call.

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tjobbe
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Re: First Impression on NX300 (unpacked)
In reply to tecnoworld, Mar 28, 2013

tecnoworld wrote:

Great! Please post your impressions asap  also about focus peaking, which tjobbe did not mention.

I did not mention it because it is not the most important feature for me 

So short feedback on MF

a) the peaking works and is configurable in regards of color and intensitiy/contrast

b) the peaking works when you magnify

c) when setting the camera to MF, you get a distance indicator (not as detailed as on the 60mm Macro, but similar to compacts) when using the NX Systems lenses

What I did not yet test (mainly because I haven't use any non NX Lens for the last 6month) is peaking with a legacy lens, but there are other reports from another german user stating it does NOT work with legacy lenses... I won't be able to try that myself before next week as I currently have no access to any.

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Ariston
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Re: First Impression on NX300 (unpacked)
In reply to tjobbe, Mar 28, 2013

tjobbe wrote:

tecnoworld wrote:

Great! Please post your impressions asap  also about focus peaking, which tjobbe did not mention.

I did not mention it because it is not the most important feature for me 

So short feedback on MF

a) the peaking works and is configurable in regards of color and intensitiy/contrast

b) the peaking works when you magnify

c) when setting the camera to MF, you get a distance indicator (not as detailed as on the 60mm Macro, but similar to compacts) when using the NX Systems lenses

What I did not yet test (mainly because I haven't use any non NX Lens for the last 6month) is peaking with a legacy lens, but there are other reports from another german user stating it does NOT work with legacy lenses... I won't be able to try that myself before next week as I currently have no access to any.

thanks. the unconfirmed report about the focus peaking doesn't work with legacy lenses doesn't sound great at all for legacy lens users. however, I do have some questions with regards to live view magnification, is that if you could change the magnified focus area since the previous NX lenses only magnifies the center area?

also, with regards to the 85mm, is if you find the lens faster to focus on the NX300 compared to the NX20?

if you say, that the jpegs are good at ISO 3200, can we say that the raws are now much better at this sensitivity? did you also take some ISO 6400 shots? I wouldn't mind using printing colored at that sensitivity if the results are acceptable.

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tjobbe
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Re: First Impression on NX300 (unpacked)
In reply to Ariston, Mar 28, 2013

Ariston wrote:

I do have some questions with regards to live view magnification, is that if you could change the magnified focus area since the previous NX lenses only magnifies the center area?

The DMF (that works with NX system lens only) is allowing you to magnify whereever the focus is placed so the center magnification is only applicable for legacy lens coupled via adapters (!)

My take is that peaking, DMF and focus magnification at spot is one FW function coupled hence the peaking applies to the System Lens only (my guess TBC)

also, with regards to the 85mm, is if you find the lens faster to focus on the NX300 compared to the NX20?

not really.. I would say that the limitation is the amount of glass that needs to be moved :-D, it is ok when you you have only incremental moves to make, that works (and I had the impression that the AF is more reliable hence more keepers so far)

if you say, that the jpegs are good at ISO 3200, can we say that the raws are now much better at this sensitivity? did you also take some ISO 6400 shots? I wouldn't mind using printing colored at that sensitivity if the results are acceptable.

Can't tell you about RAW as I haven't done any work on my PC yet, so I cannot even tell you if the LR$ that got shipped is already a V4.4 or if you need to wait for the formal Adobe release to  convert them.

But what I did: I did in camera RAW conversion already as you have full control on all params e.g. ISO/AWB etc as well an auto improve feature so for now I am ok with that knowing that the LR release supporting the NX300 is close to be release...

(a typical well know and accepted early adopter issue that I do not really care and complain about with LR now bundled)

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tecnoworld
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Re: First Impression on NX300 (unpacked)
In reply to tjobbe, Mar 28, 2013

Ouch, this would be a sad news, since the most important function of peaking is with legacy lenses....can you confirm this using a legacy lens? Thanks.

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Ariston
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Re: First Impression on NX300 (unpacked)
In reply to tjobbe, Mar 28, 2013

tjobbe wrote:

Ariston wrote:

also, with regards to the 85mm, is if you find the lens faster to focus on the NX300 compared to the NX20?

not really.. I would say that the limitation is the amount of glass that needs to be moved :-D, it is ok when you you have only incremental moves to make, that works (and I had the impression that the AF is more reliable hence more keepers so far.

thanks. that was my thought as well considering what the 85mm is made up of. but anyway, as long as the AF is more reliable, I can live with that.

the NX300 + 20-50 combo is about $250-$300 cheaper than the 18-55 which can easily sell for $400-$450 dollars in Korea. got a problem with my order getting the brown color and 20-50 combo so I'm stuck with the black and 18-55 combo instead. I'm not sure what's the deal if they have no copy, out of order (sold-out) with that unit. also the availability of the limited edition is let's say really limited.

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tjobbe
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Re: First Impression on NX300 (unpacked)
In reply to tecnoworld, Mar 28, 2013

tecnoworld wrote:

Ouch, this would be a sad news, since the most important function of peaking is with legacy lenses....can you confirm this using a legacy lens? Thanks.

That one user clarified this meanwhile

The peaking works obviously with legacy lens mounted via an adapter but you cannot configure the sensitivity but the color only. You activate that as you do use the magnifier with the "OK" button

Still something I have to try out  myself 

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tjobbe
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Re: First Impression on NX300 (unpacked)
In reply to tjobbe, Mar 28, 2013

Some short statement (as I posted that on a german forum as well) about the battery and charger:

The NX300 comes with one BP1130 that is same physical size as the BP1030 from the NX200/210/1000/1100 so you can use the BP1030 with the NX300 (tried it myself but did not try the reverse using the BP1130 in the NX200)

The downside: the BP1130 won't charge in the loader set coming with the NX200 although it physically fits in there but you can only charge it via USB (a dedicated USB Host to Micro USB cable provided and you can exchange it with a lengthier version  ... the one shipped is really short)

I was able to use the USB charger that I'm using with my galaxy tab since a while successfully with the NX300 (replacing the proprietary cable with the standard USB one)

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Ariston
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Re: First Impression on NX300 (unpacked)
In reply to tjobbe, Mar 28, 2013

tjobbe wrote:

tecnoworld wrote:

Ouch, this would be a sad news, since the most important function of peaking is with legacy lenses....can you confirm this using a legacy lens? Thanks.

That one user clarified this meanwhile

The peaking works obviously with legacy lens mounted via an adapter but you cannot configure the sensitivity but the color only. You activate that as you do use the magnifier with the "OK" button

Still something I have to try out  myself 

you almost gave legacy lens users a heart attack. lol.

anyway, just saw some images awhile ago, IQ is looking very very impressive.

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chrisrabe
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Re: First Impression on NX300 (unpacked)
In reply to tjobbe, Mar 28, 2013

tjobbe wrote:

Some short statement (as I posted that on a german forum as well) about the battery and charger:

The NX300 comes with one BP1130 that is same physical size as the BP1030 from the NX200/210/1000/1100 so you can use the BP1030 with the NX300 (tried it myself but did not try the reverse using the BP1130 in the NX200)

The downside: the BP1130 won't charge in the loader set coming with the NX200 although it physically fits in there but you can only charge it via USB (a dedicated USB Host to Micro USB cable provided and you can exchange it with a lengthier version  ... the one shipped is really short)

I was able to use the USB charger that I'm using with my galaxy tab since a while successfully with the NX300 (replacing the proprietary cable with the standard USB one)

That is very good to hear.

Can you tell us though, can you charge the BP1030 in camera on over USB?

It would be great to not have to carry charger around if taking NX1000 as spare on holiday.

Though I guess, should I need the NX1000 due to NX300 dying, not being able to charge through camera would then be a problem...

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tecnoworld
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Re: First Impression on NX300 (unpacked)
In reply to Ariston, Mar 28, 2013

Is the brown camera with 20-50mm available with that discount? Where?

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tjobbe
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Re: First Impression on NX300 (unpacked)
In reply to tecnoworld, Mar 28, 2013

tecnoworld wrote:

Is the brown camera with 20-50mm available with that discount? Where?

you can pre-order a brown one at 799€ incl the 50-200 at one german dealer

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