Colors of DP1M, DP2M & DP3M pretty close

Started Mar 27, 2013 | Discussions
cquarksnow
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Re: Colors of DP1M, DP2M & DP3M pretty close
In reply to BobNL, Mar 29, 2013

Hello, Bob -

This is certainly enlightening. One thing I'd like to know are the serials (at least the 5th digit) for each camera, and what firmware version. Would if be a lot of work to export to 16-bit TIFF and then *.png as DPreview allows uploading png in the forums (as opposed to the galleries) ?

I have been wondering about Sigma making minimal adjustments in production, so that for instance a recent DP2M 90409653 might show differences with an old DP2M 90401002

I am in Manhattan and would gladly come along my Sep. 2012 DP1M if someone with a recent one (serial 90305400 or above) wants to do a comparison (or a DP2M/DP3M).

Chris

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Jim Funston
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Re: Colors of DP1M, DP2M & DP3M pretty close
In reply to cquarksnow, Mar 29, 2013

Chris,  That is a reasonable condition to question. I was in manufacturing all my life and we were constantly making improvement tweaks throughout the model year. Sometime's we had to make even major changes due to supplier issues where we could no longer get a specific electronic component and had to make adjustments to use a different component in it's place.I am sure camera companies experience the same situations.

I like you feel there has to be a product or level of software difference between what HBowman experienced and what the OP's test demonstrates.

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Kendall Helmstetter Gelner
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Re: Images are necessary for further productive conversation
In reply to Jim Funston, Mar 29, 2013

Jim Funston wrote:

I am just wondering if it has to do with HBowman using the DP2m with its older firmware and the older version SPP. Then he sold it before the latest DP2m firmware or the SPP 5.5 upgrade. Then he got the DP3m and is comparing today's DP3m to yesterday's DP2m color. I know he is a excellent photographer and seems to enjoy helping others to get the most out of these cameras.

It is hard to see any significant differences in the OP's test but I am sure these were taken with the latest firmwares and SPP upgrades (well maybe not the SPP 5.5.1 but surely the 5.5 version)

I know I personally see many color and white balance improvements with my DP2m since the upgrades and firmware update. This could be why there is a difference in opinions on these issues between the DP2m and the DP3m.

I am hoping when I get a chance to try the new SPP 5.5.1 update that I see even more IQ improvements and tweaks. I really like my DP2m!!!!

Just presenting a possible reason for the differences in results or opinions.

The odd thing is that HBowman first thought that might be the case, that the DP-3M just had newer firmware and the DP-2M would come up to the same level in an update.

Then someone else posted a thread showing some differences, so he went into thinking it was just plain different.

I don't know why HBowman does not simply go back to his original position - that the newer firmware has better color and improved all cameras.   The shots here sure seem to show that.  It makes a lot more sense to me than maintaining there is a strong difference, especially when he does not have both cameras to shoot!

It also makes way more sense to me from a technical side.  Why would the camera itself be prone to delivering different color?   There cannot be much in the way of sensor changes from the DP-1/2M to the DP-3M.  To me the thought they are different requires much more in the way of proof than them being the same, simply because of that aspect.

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Roland Karlsson
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Re: Bob . . .
In reply to jrdigitalart, Mar 29, 2013

jrdigitalart wrote:

. . . it interests me that you stated a theory that the longer lens on the DP3M could be directing more light directly to the end of the wells and that there were better colour results when using longer FL lenses on the SD1.

If that is so, hello Sigma! You might be onto something to benefit us all.

This is why its generally recommended to use tele centric lenses on digital cameras.

The original FourThirds design was built upon that fact. The mFourThirds is not.

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BobNL
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Quick observation based on using presets
In reply to BobNL, Mar 29, 2013

Will post examples later but here's a quick overview of what I saw when changing the WB to presets. The DP3M is very warm. The DP2M is on the green side. And the DP1M is actually pretty close to neutral. This is also reflected in AutoWB.

It is getting more and more interesting

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TalleyrandBH
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Re: Quick observation based on using presets
In reply to BobNL, Mar 29, 2013

This thread is a great understanding of reverse engineering- and human nature.

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BobNL
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Re: Quick observation based on using presets
In reply to BobNL, Mar 29, 2013

A quick screenshot of the results in a Lightroom overview. DP1M on the top, then DP2M, bottom is the DP3M. Will make RAWs available later today.

DP1M
DP2M
DP3M
AutoWB, CustomWB, Overcast, Sunlight colorpicker corrected.

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HBowman
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Re: Quick observation based on using presets
In reply to BobNL, Mar 29, 2013

I would like to apologize if I sounded very rude in my previous posts. I struggle with children actually and I'm more than exasperated and that affect my comportment.

Well, here is a short example of the difference between the DP2m, and his color response in outdoor scene. Both shoots are took over white sky (no sun, nothing), so pretty good conditions.

The first photo is not my wife (she is but not on this photo...). You have hard time to see her freckles but, in the DP2m shoot, there is an evident colour shift problem. All colours of this photo are out, or close to be out, in standard mode (Or you are really really blind). Zoom on his face and look at this frigin irradiated skin ... what the hell ?? of course, it is out of the last SPP, exifs inside, without pp. On stage, with girls, we were ... very surprised/disgusted. After many test we took the Nikon ... and stopped with the little.

DP2m, irradiated skin tones, fact, red layer problem.

The second shoot is done with the DP3m, all auto, standard mode, out of spp 5.51 and no pp exifs inside. THIS is my wife, this is my love. Colours are not saturated, what is yellow is not reddish ... and of course I do have many examples but those are the most ... evident for the blind ones.

DP3m, natural skin tones, fact, color fixed.

My scientific opinion, because I have the right to have one is simple :

Every SIGMA camera had problems with the red layer of the sensor (all). Every iteration of SIGMA DP or SD, was just to fix the signal (at an electronic level) and the red layer.

Red/Green/magenta colour splotches, who are fatcs too, are due to this very layer and, to be more accurate, I think this is due to what you have between the two layers or the interpretation of the signal between the two layers, green and red (red is the most sensitive). A sort of contamination.

If some here, have absolutely the same color between the DP2m and the DP3m (I doubt large about it), it is maybe because I had the first batch of DP2m and SIGMA maybe changed something at a precise serial number to fix it. Note that, when I sold my DP2m, he had not the last firmware but the one before; so it was not with the initial firmware.

My wild guess (educated guess) Is that the DP3m, at a color level, is excellent. That all. I do not care about color checker LOL I do not shoot color checker IRL even with MFDB or film

Skins tones do not lie. Skin tones are a subtle blend between colors and is a true test. Canon have a skin tone, Nikon have a skin tone, Leica have some skin tones, SIGMA (from the DP2s to the SD15 and now the DP3m) have a very good skin tone (Very).

Have a good day.

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SandyF
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Re: Quick observation based on using presets
In reply to HBowman, Mar 29, 2013

Huylss, two points I think are important. You're not using the cameras simultaneously, ie shooting what I call 'side by side' so that makes it hard to do an exact comparison. Your DP2Merrill shots are apparently from last year. DP3Merrill shots currently.

Second, the DP2Merrill shots you're showing are not using the current firmware.. or probably even the one before that. The latest is new, I haven't updated yet. I'm still using DP2Merrill on 1.02.

I recall someone posted a series of barn shots when the DP3Merrill first came out, which showed different basic colorations in the cameras. The DP3Merrill was browner I recall.

But what we don't know... and everyone is working to figure out.... is how the cameras compare NOW. Note Bob and Kendall and several other people have BOTH, in hand, and can compare them on site,  in different locations and light, studio and outdoors, and on-camera as well as in post processing.
My own feeling FWIW is that there are subtle differences in the cameras, BUT the wb settings and colormode settings and post processing make far more difference in the results than an inherent difference in the RAW. I haven't used the DP3M.... but I've seen such subtle differences in evey other camera I've used.

Best regards, Sandy
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HBowman
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Re: Quick observation based on using presets
In reply to SandyF, Mar 29, 2013

SandyF wrote:

Huylss, two points I think are important. You're not using the cameras simultaneously, ie shooting what I call 'side by side' so that makes it hard to do an exact comparison. Your DP2Merrill shots are apparently from last year. DP3Merrill shots currently.

Second, the DP2Merrill shots you're showing are not using the current firmware.. or probably even the one before that. The latest is new, I haven't updated yet. I'm still using DP2Merrill on 1.02.

I recall someone posted a series of barn shots when the DP3Merrill first came out, which showed different basic colorations in the cameras. The DP3Merrill was browner I recall.

But what we don't know... and everyone is working to figure out.... is how the cameras compare NOW. Note Bob and Kendall and several other people have BOTH, in hand, and can compare them on site,  in different locations and light, studio and outdoors, and on-camera as well as in post processing.
My own feeling FWIW is that there are subtle differences in the cameras, BUT the wb settings and colormode settings and post processing make far more difference in the results than an inherent difference in the RAW. I haven't used the DP3M.... but I've seen such subtle differences in evey other camera I've used.

Best regards, Sandy
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As I said I do not care of color checker. This is skin tones in the street and especially were there is brown, red, orange tonality, like me, out of SPP direct jpeg without adjustments (even WB).

I would have kept the DP2m (I sold him 2 months ago) other wise, or there is no homogeneity between series of camera, independently of firmware.

The more funny in this, is if I was saying "the DP3m do have the same rendering than the DP2m" I would have been attacked by ppl to prove me the contrary LOL.

Even before the the DP3m was out, on some flickr examples, this difference between the two camera was kinda visible ...

And note that I KNOW how to use a camera, I master my camera (I even teach it).

When you say that the DP3m look like browner it is just because WB pipette of SPP5.5 (I do not know for the 5.51) was broken and too warm. Auto WB out of the DP3m was more accurate than WB adjusted in SPP. I do not come here to say all what I know because I do not have too much time for that but I'm deep into sigma and SPP manipulations.

SIGMA change(adjust) things and do not tell us they changed it. Just what they want to say and us to know.

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HBowman
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Re: Quick observation based on using presets
In reply to HBowman, Mar 29, 2013

oOo and dog furtoo Dog fur out of DP2m are out (or was) but this was discussed here long time ago. R+5Y-15 anyone ?? No ??

Please, take time to dig into the forum and you will see the "Merrill" evolution.

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SandyF
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Re: Quick observation based on using presets
In reply to HBowman, Mar 29, 2013

HBowman wrote:

oOo and dog furtoo Dog fur out of DP2m are out (or was) but this was discussed here long time ago. R+5Y-15 anyone ?? No ??

Please, take time to dig into the forum and you will see the "Merrill" evolution.

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I'm aware that almost every camera has yielded different results straight from the camera. I've used (in order) SD10, SD9, SD14 (several different units), DP1, DP2, DP2Merrill, SD1, SD15.... The DP1Merrill and DP3Merrill are the only ones I have personally not used. In fact, I've written over the years that probably my biggest frustration with Sigma/Foveon cameras is getting them to match... in that I'm often shooting a combination of Sigma (and/or Canon 5DII) such as SD14 and DP1 and DP2 side-by-side ; or now SD15 and the DP2Merrill.

My main point is, I suppose, that the difference in out-of-camera output of the different Merrill cameras may not be that large, from what Bob, Kendall and others with BOTH cameras have said. Post processing certainly yields more  and creates more differences.

FWIW I didn't see as large a difference between the DP2Merrill and the SD1 as with previous model cameras... and I could get the output to look similar in SPP. But again, I don't have another DPxM camera to compare with my DP2Merrill.

But I certainly can believe that there is some 'color' difference. We know too that previous cameras have changed their 'color' patterns by firmware updates. I remember quite specifically with the early SD14s. It would be interesting to learn what the Sigma portrait photographers think of inherent differences, other than the mm of lenses... Kevin Ames, Lindsay Adler, people who've used all the cameras 'live' in studio type situations.

Best regards, Sandy
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SandyF
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link: Vieri's updated results thread
In reply to vbd70, Mar 30, 2013

Just for the record, I wanted to 'tie' Vieri's latest important thread to this thread, with updated comments, examples, and links

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/51182226

Best regards, Sandy
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cquarksnow
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Re: Quick observation based on using presets
In reply to SandyF, Mar 30, 2013

Hello, Sandy -

As I caught this 5-month old post from Steven Kornreich about ICC profiles,

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/50101765

I wonder whether you or anyone else has been able to produce a satisfactory ICC profile for any of the Merrill-sensor cameras (hopefully ProPhoto D65).

The orange (agent ?) in the SD1M has been bringing a whole lot of very fruitful color discussions for the DP*M series, and I have been wondering all along about Sigma making minor improvements in cameras that might cause some confusion because they are not publicized.

It's understandable that a manufacturer would not want potential buyers to wait for the next iteration to "make the jump", yet it would be good to know if hardware and firmware have really be frozen from onset, or whether there is some kind of DP2M version 4.

I am not even sure whether the in-camera jpg algorithms and SPP are undergoing minor changes that might just cause users to differ, as they might not know. Since some are so secretive about serial numbers or date of purchase, it's hard to equate....

For fun I used SPP 5.1 loupe on Vieri and BobNL colorchecker pictures, quite amazed at the red value on #18, and also I was baffled when comparing the pictures to this http://www.babelcolor.com/download/RGB%20Coordinates%20of%20the%20Macbeth%20ColorChecker.pdf

As empirical cameras, the DP*M can yield results that are hard to match, yet I also thought of calibrating as best as can so as to increase the yield of RAW keepers.

Regards,

Chris

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BobNL
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RAWs available for those who want to play with it.
In reply to BobNL, Mar 30, 2013
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