If this video doea not address it nothing will! For EPSON

Started Mar 26, 2013 | Discussions
Hugowolf
Forum ProPosts: 11,513
Like?
Re: Relative colorimetric vs perceptual
In reply to fft81, Mar 29, 2013

fft81 wrote:

I watched the whole video and i really do not understand why people are complaining about the epson guy.

It just wasn't a very good presentation, at least the first 30 minutes of it.

The 3000 patch profile just helps you to reproduce colors listed in the file on paper more accurately.

I am not knocking ColorMunki at all, but it isn't just about color accuracy, there is also the extent of the gamut produced, white and black point, dMax, etc.

One of the main problems of ColorMunki Photo, is that the iterative approach doesn't allow for providing profiles for others, which is something XRite and DataColor have been trying to achieve for years. Better for them that everyone buys a profiling system, than a few people providing profiling services.

Another is the drying time: ten minutes really isn't enough, especially for many dye based inks. (There are simple work arrounds for the ten minutes, but they are not pretty.)

Brian A

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
homerlsmith
New MemberPosts: 11
Like?
Re: Relative colorimetric vs perceptual
In reply to fft81, Mar 30, 2013

fft81 - I have been mulling over your comments for while and would like to express another opinion. With all due respect, photography is a wonderful combination of science and art.  Take, for instance, the science of the law of reciprocity.  We apply that science in many ways.  One might be to control depth of field (there are many others) and that points to the art side of photography.  I understand this is a printing forum so to relate it more concisely - I personally am extremely interested in the science part of digital printing - only as a goal to better apply it to the "art" of digital printing.  I am grateful there have been some great art minded photographers that were also incredible technicians.  Eliot Porter comes to mind - a chemist by training - who then applied the science of Kodak's dye transfer process to chrome to produce amazing photographic art. And of course Ansel Adams, et al.  But for me all the science simply leads me to the "wow factor" when one of my prints rolls out of that digital printer. Same wow factor when I used to make a 20x24 portrait print from film in my studio color lab many moons ago - and took one look and said "wow!".  It took a lot of science to get me there - but the art was the goal.  So take it easy on us art minded types - we just might be great technicians too.

-- hide signature --

Homer

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Petruska
Veteran MemberPosts: 6,847
Like?
fft81 - I agree!
In reply to fft81, Mar 30, 2013

fft81 wrote:

I watched the whole video and i really do not understand why people are complaining about the epson guy. I am an engineer in real life and he is talking like an engineer, explaining the options that epson hardware provides. The art minded people fail to realize that he is giving them a box of tools, art minded people think that he is giving them a plan to how build a house, so they criticize the plan, b/c they think they can build the house better. All that printer does is lay ink onto paper in a certain pattern that tries to reproduce colors from your image. Relative colorimetric, perceptual.... no, neither one is better, they are different tools which you have to choose from to do that, which YOU are trying to achieve. The same applies to everything else he states. And yes, he is right, the 3000 patch profiles are more accurate than what CM generates, BUT the 3000 patch profile does not help you make your monitor look close to what print will look like. The 3000 patch profile just helps you to reproduce colors listed in the file on paper more accurately. ColorMunki gives you a tool to see what your image will look like before you print it, by calibrating your monitor/projector. If you do not assume that he is telling you what you should do and you realize he is just telling you what you CAN do; then his explanations will make much more sense.

I thought the Espson tech rep did a great job on explaining all aspects of printing and color management.  Remember this was a presentation for about an hour+, not a whole day classroom experience.

I hope everyone got his bottom line comment, to forget the custom profiles, the Epson canned printer driver settings, to make a perfect print, just make sure that prints look good to you no matter what it takes to get there!

Bob P.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
fft81
Contributing MemberPosts: 896
Like?
Re: Relative colorimetric vs perceptual
In reply to homerlsmith, Mar 30, 2013

homerlsmith wrote:

fft81 - So take it easy on us art minded types - we just might be great technicians too.

-- hide signature --

Homer

My grad school science adviser, Ph.D. nuclear engineer by trade, was also a very good artist. I never "yell" at art minded types, because every great scientist is also an artist. The folks whom i do yell at are like my parents, if there is something that they don't easily understand it must be wrong or useless.

Those who do not expect miracles tend to witness a lot more magical moments in life.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
fft81
Contributing MemberPosts: 896
Like?
Re: Relative colorimetric vs perceptual
In reply to Hugowolf, Mar 30, 2013

Hugowolf wrote:

One of the main problems of ColorMunki Photo, is that the iterative approach doesn't allow for providing profiles for others, which is something XRite and DataColor have been trying to achieve for years. Better for them that everyone buys a profiling system, than a few people providing profiling services.

Another is the drying time: ten minutes really isn't enough, especially for many dye based inks. (There are simple work arrounds for the ten minutes, but they are not pretty.)

Brian A

1. You can leave prints to dry overnight and scan them next day.

2. Go to: “Windows>System 32>Spool>Drivers>Color” copy the *.icm or .icc file that corresponds to monitor or printer profile you created. Share it all you like.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Hugowolf
Forum ProPosts: 11,513
Like?
Re: Relative colorimetric vs perceptual
In reply to fft81, Mar 30, 2013

fft81 wrote:

Hugowolf wrote:

One of the main problems of ColorMunki Photo, is that the iterative approach doesn't allow for providing profiles for others, which is something XRite and DataColor have been trying to achieve for years. Better for them that everyone buys a profiling system, than a few people providing profiling services.

Another is the drying time: ten minutes really isn't enough, especially for many dye based inks. (There are simple work arrounds for the ten minutes, but they are not pretty.)

Brian A

2. Go to: “Windows>System 32>Spool>Drivers>Color” copy the *.icm or .icc file that corresponds to monitor or printer profile you created. Share it all you like.

You miss the point. Maybe you haven't bought or sold custom profiles before. To make custom profiles for a remote machine involves the owner of that machine printing out a set of patches. sending the patch sheets to the profile maker, who then scans them and creates the profile, which is ususally email backed or put up on an FTP site.

Brian A

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Hugowolf
Forum ProPosts: 11,513
Like?
Re: fft81 - I agree!
In reply to Petruska, Mar 30, 2013

Petruska wrote:

I hope everyone got his bottom line comment, to forget the custom profiles,

So what do you propose doing when you have a paper but no profile at all for it? Or a paper for which the only available profile is awful?

Brian A

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
fft81
Contributing MemberPosts: 896
Like?
Re: Relative colorimetric vs perceptual
In reply to Hugowolf, Mar 30, 2013

Hugowolf wrote:

fft81 wrote:

Hugowolf wrote:

One of the main problems of ColorMunki Photo, is that the iterative approach doesn't allow for providing profiles for others, which is something XRite and DataColor have been trying to achieve for years. Better for them that everyone buys a profiling system, than a few people providing profiling services.

Another is the drying time: ten minutes really isn't enough, especially for many dye based inks. (There are simple work arrounds for the ten minutes, but they are not pretty.)

Brian A

2. Go to: “Windows>System 32>Spool>Drivers>Color” copy the *.icm or .icc file that corresponds to monitor or printer profile you created. Share it all you like.

You miss the point. Maybe you haven't bought or sold custom profiles before. To make custom profiles for a remote machine involves the owner of that machine printing out a set of patches. sending the patch sheets to the profile maker, who then scans them and creates the profile, which is ususally email backed or put up on an FTP site.

Brian A

I was not thinking in terms of providing commercial service; those who do provide commercial service should be using the 3,000 patch system mentioned in the video. I was thinking more in terms of you sharing your profiles with a friend or colleague; who is using the same printer/paper/ink. Or even a print service offering their icc profiles for soft proofing via their website....

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
fft81
Contributing MemberPosts: 896
Like?
Re: fft81 - I agree!
In reply to Hugowolf, Mar 30, 2013

Hugowolf wrote:

Petruska wrote:

I hope everyone got his bottom line comment, to forget the custom profiles,

So what do you propose doing when you have a paper but no profile at all for it? Or a paper for which the only available profile is awful?

Brian A

There you artisty guys going off tangent again. The guy said that the epson ink and epson paper profiles are much better than anything colormunki can deliver. That is true. This does not mean that the Epson stock profiles can make you a pizza or play DVDs.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Petruska
Veteran MemberPosts: 6,847
Like?
Re: fft81 - I agree!
In reply to Hugowolf, Mar 30, 2013

Hugowolf wrote:

Petruska wrote:

I hope everyone got his bottom line comment, to forget the custom profiles,

So what do you propose doing when you have a paper but no profile at all for it? Or a paper for which the only available profile is awful?

Brian A

What I was getting at is that us perfectionists (me included) around here strive to get that holy grail of the perfect print to monitor to real world image match when our goal should be to print the most appealing look possible, to us, our clients.  If it takes a custom profile then yes use it.

Bob P.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Hugowolf
Forum ProPosts: 11,513
Like?
Re: fft81 - I agree!
In reply to fft81, Mar 31, 2013

fft81 wrote:

There you artisty guys going off tangent again.

Actually thought we were on a tangent, glad to know we weren't.

Brian A

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
fft81
Contributing MemberPosts: 896
Like?
Re: fft81 - I agree!
In reply to Hugowolf, Mar 31, 2013

Hugowolf wrote:

fft81 wrote:

There you artisty guys going off tangent again.

Actually thought we were on a tangent, glad to know we weren't.

Brian A

Don't worry, going off tangent is only 1 step (word) away from being on tangent.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Mark McCormick
Contributing MemberPosts: 778
Like?
Re: fft81 - I agree!
In reply to Petruska, Mar 31, 2013

Petruska wrote:

I hope everyone got his bottom line comment, to forget the custom profiles, the Epson canned printer driver settings, to make a perfect print, just make sure that prints look good to you no matter what it takes to get there!

Bob P.

I didn't watch the video long enough to hear the speaker make that statement. He lost my attention when he confused the concept of correlated color temperature of the lighting with light intensity in the print viewing environment. If he did say something like "forget about custom profiles", then I suppose it's a manufacturer's rep trying to convince more people that inkjet printing is easy and everyone should be doing it. In reality, digital printing can be easy if you have modest expectations and go to Costco or Walmart for your photo printing needs or buy a little wireless dye-based AIO printer and stick with the very easiest color control defaults and OEM papers.

That said, to do inkjet printing at an advanced amateur or pro level is indeed a more complex undertaking, and it doesn't help to trivialize it.  For the person even with well above average intelligence, it can take many years to perfect one's craft at an advanced level involving choice of good equipment, monitor and printer calibration, day to day equipment maintenance and troubleshooting, color management with a dose of color science to understand the concepts, hard won skills with advanced image editing software, ongoing battles with new OS, software, and printer driver bugs, experience with different rendering intents and when to choose one over the other (there are good reasons they all exist), establishing proper print viewing environments (i.e, my print's too dark syndrome), choice and influence of media, etc., etc.

I used to give one day seminars on digital printing. I don't anymore because i concluded that I wasn't doing my audience any favors. What I do instead today is take on summer interns and/or local volunteers who really really want to learn this stuff. We trade their time helping me with my digital print research in exchange for an in depth learning experience re: digital fine art printmaking. I only mention this because some of you reading this comment may be able to find a digital printing expert near you who may be willing to take you on as an apprentice.  It's a fantastic way to truly learn the craft.

For you brave souls who have already taken up the digital printing challenge and hopefully been enriched and rewarded by it, I salute you!

-- hide signature --
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Petruska
Veteran MemberPosts: 6,847
Like?
Mark....!
In reply to Mark McCormick, Mar 31, 2013

Mark McCormick wrote:

Petruska wrote:

I hope everyone got his bottom line comment, to forget the custom profiles, the Epson canned printer driver settings, to make a perfect print, just make sure that prints look good to you no matter what it takes to get there!

Bob P.

I didn't watch the video long enough to hear the speaker make that statement. He lost my attention when he confused the concept of correlated color temperature of the lighting with light intensity in the print viewing environment. If he did say something like "forget about custom profiles", then I suppose it's a manufacturer's rep trying to convince more people that inkjet printing is easy and everyone should be doing it. In reality, digital printing can be easy if you have modest expectations and go to Costco or Walmart for your photo printing needs or buy a little wireless dye-based AIO printer and stick with the very easiest color control defaults and OEM papers.

That said, to do inkjet printing at an advanced amateur or pro level is indeed a more complex undertaking, and it doesn't help to trivialize it.  For the person even with well above average intelligence, it can take many years to perfect one's craft at an advanced level involving choice of good equipment, monitor and printer calibration, day to day equipment maintenance and troubleshooting, color management with a dose of color science to understand the concepts, hard won skills with advanced image editing software, ongoing battles with new OS, software, and printer driver bugs, experience with different rendering intents and when to choose one over the other (there are good reasons they all exist), establishing proper print viewing environments (i.e, my print's too dark syndrome), choice and influence of media, etc., etc.

I used to give one day seminars on digital printing. I don't anymore because i concluded that I wasn't doing my audience any favors. What I do instead today is take on summer interns and/or local volunteers who really really want to learn this stuff. We trade their time helping me with my digital print research in exchange for an in depth learning experience re: digital fine art printmaking. I only mention this because some of you reading this comment may be able to find a digital printing expert near you who may be willing to take you on as an apprentice.  It's a fantastic way to truly learn the craft.

For you brave souls who have already taken up the digital printing challenge and hopefully been enriched and rewarded by it, I salute you!

-- hide signature --

Mark,

I should have phrased my wording a little more carefully.

What I meant was...

I hope everyone got his bottom line comment, to "not focus" on the custom profiles, the Epson canned printer driver settings, to make a perfect print, just make sure that prints look good to you no matter what it takes to get there!

I still say the presenter did a decent job at explaining most aspects of printing in a simplistic way to trigger thoughts in the viewers.

Bob P.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads