If this video doea not address it nothing will! For EPSON

Started Mar 26, 2013 | Discussions
jtoolman
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If this video doea not address it nothing will! For EPSON
Mar 26, 2013

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxxqN_5mNo0

Yes it is about 1:20 hrs long BUT it will answer just about all your questions.

My favorite line about 4 minutes into it, is, " You bought a printer, USE IT, don't let it sit for a month" which is my constant printing SERMON!

I will watch this while I sit for my baby grandson today! Training the boy early!

Joe

camerashy
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Re: If this video doea not address it nothing will! For EPSON
In reply to jtoolman, Mar 26, 2013

Thanks, Joe, I'll look  forward to viewing it on this extremely cold, snowy and windy day.

Dave

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jtoolman
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Re: If this video doea not address it nothing will! For EPSON
In reply to camerashy, Mar 26, 2013

camerashy wrote:

Thanks, Joe, I'll look forward to viewing it on this extremely cold, snowy and windy day.

Dave

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It is interesting so far. I do not agree with everything but hey, printing images is a subjective exercise to me.

Joe

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Terry
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Re: If this video doea not address it nothing will! For EPSON
In reply to jtoolman, Mar 26, 2013

I also agree with most of it, the point is to print once a week or so, even using plain paper and to look at the print in the proper light. The rest is most likely beyond where I want to go at this time.

Terry D

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rodbam
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My least favorite line
In reply to jtoolman, Mar 27, 2013

Is where he rubbishes the Colormunki which for the money seems to work great especially if you use aftermarket inks & papers.

He didn't seem as nice as the Canon reps:-)
Regards Rod

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jtoolman
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Re: My least favorite line
In reply to rodbam, Mar 27, 2013

rodbam wrote:

Is where he rubbishes the Colormunki which for the money seems to work great especially if you use aftermarket inks & papers.

He didn't seem as nice as the Canon reps:-)
Regards Rod

Yes, that also did strike a nerve with me. Also the bits about how he loves when "We" waste lot of ink and expensive paper.

Also the bit about that it's too bad that we get head strikes and other problems when we use papers other than Epson due to the fact that Epson includes the paper settings in the driver.

Makes me think about why Canon IPG printers allow you to create custom paper settings that will be added to the list of media choices in the Canon driver. Many paper providers will also include a file that includes all the paper settings for the printer to adjust itself for thickness, optimal amount of ink, etc.

Oh and maybe the reason we go to other papers is because they are BETTER?????

Joe

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jrkliny
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Re: My least favorite line
In reply to jtoolman, Mar 27, 2013

I thought this was one of the worst seminars I have seen on color management.  It was plenty long but for me it seemed to be disorganized and thin on useful and practical information.

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homerlsmith
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Re: My least favorite line
In reply to jrkliny, Mar 27, 2013

I have to agree - disjointed and rambling - and maybe even slightly condescending.  But it did bring up a question maybe you guys can comment on.  I have had it in my mind that perceptual rendering was for most photo printing and that relative colorimetric was for use with photos that had a single predominant color or very limited color range.  I may have misunderstood him but didn't he have it the opposite - that he uses relative 90% of the time and perceptual when he has a predominant color range like in a landscape?  It was about 25 minutes in.  I now confess my renewed confusion on the subject.  I recently read a thread somewhere here that had comments about rendering and profiling but......  Any thoughts?

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Fulvio Senore
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Relative colorimetric vs perceptual
In reply to homerlsmith, Mar 27, 2013

Relative colorimetric changes all the colours out of gamut to the nearest colour in gamut, so many colours change to the same one. It DOES NOT change colours in gamut.

Perceptual changes ALL the colours in the image in a proportional way so that they lie in the printer gamut. This happens also if the image does not contain out-of-gamut colours.

So if your image does not contain out-of-gamut colours relative colorimetric does not change colours, while perceptual changes them.

If your image contains out of gamut colours relative colorimetric can cause strange colour changes (only for the out of gamut ones), while perceptual does not cause such strange changes.

The speaker talks about skin tones (they are in the printer gamut, I believe): with relative colorimetric they do not change, with perceptual they change and this can be a problem.

IIRIC the speaker also says the the best thing is to make some tests, anyway.

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coronawithlime
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Re: Relative colorimetric vs perceptual
In reply to Fulvio Senore, Mar 28, 2013

Fulvio Senore wrote:

IIRIC the speaker also says the the best thing is to make some tests, anyway.

Strikes me as possibly the best advice in most all cases  

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Hugowolf
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Re: Relative colorimetric vs perceptual
In reply to Fulvio Senore, Mar 28, 2013

Fulvio Senore wrote:

Perceptual changes ALL the colours in the image in a proportional way so that they lie in the printer gamut. This happens also if the image does not contain out-of-gamut colours.

Close but not quite right. The presenter does say that perceptual intents change all the colors in the image, but that isn’t so. Perceptual intents do compress some in gamut colors to make room for shifting out of gamut colors into the gamut, but they do not do that to all in gamut colors.

What perceptual intents do is highly dependent on their implementation, they are very proprietary. The perceptual intent from the Adobe CMM (color management module) could vary greatly from the one in the Microsoft CMM, but I have never come across one that would shift all in gamut colors. There is nothing proportional about it.

The other intents are well defined, but perceptual is basically a black art.

I stopped viewing the video after a member of the audience asked about rending intents and matte papers, at that point it was clear he didn’t know what he was talking about. Some may have stopped with the idea of using a towel or old pillowcase to cover the printer - short fibre cotton, I don't know if there could be anything worse.

What he talked about that immediately prior to that, about choosing relative colorimetric vs perceptual was actually sound. If you have no out of gamut colors, then there is no reason for choosing perceptual, unless that provides you with a more pleasing print. If you have an image with out of gamut colors that are different but close in hue and want to differentiate between them in the print, then it is worth trying perceptual if relative colorimetric would clip them to the same color. His example is over used, but still valid.

The most common problems lie in the saturated greens and oranges. (A reason why Epson UltraChrome HDR inks include those two colors.) Fall foliage, with lots of yellow-reds, where you want differentiation between different yellow-reds (oranges), instead of a wash of the same color, is a fair example. Any landscape image with lots of greens that are different when seen next to one another, but would be difficult to tell apart when seen separately, would be another good candidate for look to perceptual, if you have those greens out of gamut.

Brian A

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homerlsmith
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Re: Relative colorimetric vs perceptual
In reply to Hugowolf, Mar 28, 2013

Thanks Brian!!  Extremely helpful.

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Homer

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jtoolman
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Re: If this video doea not address it nothing will! For EPSON
In reply to jtoolman, Mar 28, 2013

jtoolman wrote:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PxxqN_5mNo0

Yes it is about 1:20 hrs long BUT it will answer just about all your questions.

My favorite line about 4 minutes into it, is, " You bought a printer, USE IT, don't let it sit for a month" which is my constant printing SERMON!

I will watch this while I sit for my baby grandson today! Training the boy early!

Joe

After watching this twice I now wish I could rewrite my title!

I found myself thinking HUH???? Really? during many of the segments and I was thinking, wit,,, this is one of the guys at top echelon Epson Tech support? Good Lord!

I apologize for my premature excitement when posting this link. I only got to watch about the 1st 8 minutes before having to get on the road.

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SoCal Dave
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Re: Relative colorimetric vs perceptual
In reply to Hugowolf, Mar 28, 2013

Hugowolf wrote:

The most common problems lie in the saturated greens and oranges. (A reason why Epson UltraChrome HDR inks include those two colors.) Fall foliage, with lots of yellow-reds, where you want differentiation between different yellow-reds (oranges), instead of a wash of the same color, is a fair example. Any landscape image with lots of greens that are different when seen next to one another, but would be difficult to tell apart when seen separately, would be another good candidate for look to perceptual, if you have those greens out of gamut.

Brian A

Can I ask you to clarify this statement specific to the Epson 4900 that has the green and orange inks you reference?  Specifically, using the Ultrachrome HDR inks, are you saying that you believe fall foliage would best be served by perceptual or by relative colorimetric?  Which?

Thanks!

Dave

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Hugowolf
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Re: Relative colorimetric vs perceptual
In reply to SoCal Dave, Mar 28, 2013

SoCal Dave wrote:

Hugowolf wrote:

The most common problems lie in the saturated greens and oranges. (A reason why Epson UltraChrome HDR inks include those two colors.) Fall foliage, with lots of yellow-reds, where you want differentiation between different yellow-reds (oranges), instead of a wash of the same color, is a fair example. Any landscape image with lots of greens that are different when seen next to one another, but would be difficult to tell apart when seen separately, would be another good candidate for look to perceptual, if you have those greens out of gamut.

Brian A

Can I ask you to clarify this statement specific to the Epson 4900 that has the green and orange inks you reference?  Specifically, using the Ultrachrome HDR inks, are you saying that you believe fall foliage would best be served by perceptual or by relative colorimetric?  Which?

It isn't specific to the Ultrachrom HDR inks. It doesn't matter what inkset you are using. You can have out of gamut blues, greens, reds, yellows, anything.

If you have no out of gamut areas, then relative colorimetric will give you the most accurate print. Perceptual will also work, and you might find the results more pleasing, but they will not be as accurate. Using perceptual when there are no out of gamut colors is a bit like applying a mild effects filter – you could call it the 'compress gamut filter'.

If you have out of gamut areas within the same color range, but of slightly different hues or tonality, then when using relative colorimetric, there is a strong chance of these being mapped to the same output value, and therefore indistinguishable from one another. It bears repeating, this will only happen to out of gamut colors. If this is the case, then that is a good time to look at using perceptual. If you don't have out of gamut colors, then using perceptual could cause those similar colors to be crushed closer together.

You determine this by softproofing with the profile for the paper/ink/printer you are using. Firstly turning on the out-of-gamut warning, then by looking closely at the out of gamut areas to see if the colors in those areas are being mapped/clipped to the same color, and if they are, and you don't find that meets your visual requirements, then you can try doing the same thing with the perceptual intent and see if that works better.

Having orange and green inks extends the output gamut for those colors. It reduces the chance of orange foliage (or orange anything for that matter), being out of gamut, but doesn't always prevent it.

The orange and green inks don't extend the gamut that much. CMYK does remarkably well, and has done for decades. Each additional ink extends the gamut a little. And if you print a normal range of subjects, you will find that the O and G inks are used very little.

There are other reasons why you may want to use one intent over the other, given different circumstances. But this is a long enough post already.

Brian A

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Fulvio Senore
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Re: Relative colorimetric vs perceptual
In reply to Hugowolf, Mar 28, 2013

Thank you for your explanation, it is much appreciated.

I have a question: in Photoshop I can use the "View/Proof setup/Custom" menu to proof colours.

I can see large colour differences when I switch from relative colorimetric to perceptual. I admit that I have not made a print test yet, but the difference is really disturbing.

Is that colour difference reliable? Would I see the same difference in the printed image?

Thanks in advance.

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Hugowolf
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Re: Relative colorimetric vs perceptual
In reply to Fulvio Senore, Mar 28, 2013

Fulvio Senore wrote:

Thank you for your explanation, it is much appreciated.

I have a question: in Photoshop I can use the "View/Proof setup/Custom" menu to proof colours.

I can see large colour differences when I switch from relative colorimetric to perceptual. I admit that I have not made a print test yet, but the difference is really disturbing.

Is that colour difference reliable? Would I see the same difference in the printed image?

No, it isn't entirely reliable. The out of gamut warning areas should be reasonably reliable, although there is no indication of how far out of gamut they are. The softproof is there to give you an idea of how it will print, and is definitely way off for matte papers. And remember you are also dealing with the gamut of your monitor. You could have colors in the image that are in the printer's gamut but out of the monitor's gamut.

There is nothing that beats a hard proof on the same paper as the final print, even if it is at a reduced size.

Brian A

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fft81
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Re: Relative colorimetric vs perceptual
In reply to Hugowolf, Mar 29, 2013

I watched the whole video and i really do not understand why people are complaining about the epson guy. I am an engineer in real life and he is talking like an engineer, explaining the options that epson hardware provides. The art minded people fail to realize that he is giving them a box of tools, art minded people think that he is giving them a plan to how build a house, so they criticize the plan, b/c they think they can build the house better. All that printer does is lay ink onto paper in a certain pattern that tries to reproduce colors from your image. Relative colorimetric, perceptual.... no, neither one is better, they are different tools which you have to choose from to do that, which YOU are trying to achieve. The same applies to everything else he states. And yes, he is right, the 3000 patch profiles are more accurate than what CM generates, BUT the 3000 patch profile does not help you make your monitor look close to what print will look like. The 3000 patch profile just helps you to reproduce colors listed in the file on paper more accurately. ColorMunki gives you a tool to see what your image will look like before you print it, by calibrating your monitor/projector. If you do not assume that he is telling you what you should do and you realize he is just telling you what you CAN do; then his explanations will make much more sense.

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Fulvio Senore
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Tank you for the info (nt)
In reply to Hugowolf, Mar 29, 2013
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Fulvio Senore

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Terry
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Re: If this video doea not address it nothing will! For EPSON
In reply to jtoolman, Mar 29, 2013

I posted above and wanted to add that I have a Color Monki, I use it and love it BUT......there is always some last min. tweaking that adjust to MY taste.

Terry D

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