Serious doubts on the D7100 at high ISO

Started Mar 25, 2013 | Discussions
mosswings
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Re: Some more samples and...
In reply to Novens2, Mar 27, 2013

Novens2 wrote:

Thank you for your work on this I do tend to agree with your observations and think that in real life shooting the d7100 is purposely limited to make some of us jump to full frame. I do think there seems to be an improvement in color and that in general it looks like a good camera just a slight give and take bump up in IQ.

Perhaps...but look at this another way: the D7100 is only 1/3 stop behind the D600 in DR at least and comparable to most current FF cameras:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/post/51170795

That's a pretty futile attempt at limiting.

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silver45
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Re: Serious doubts on the D7100 at high ISO
In reply to edo21, Mar 27, 2013

I apologize if I am repeating someone else but I have not had time to read all of this thread.

There is NO such thing as NO post processing there are only 2 ways it can be done, in camera for a jpg, where the camera does it, or with software as a jpg. or raw file. You have the choice. The only way you can really see what the noise is to correctly process a raw file and use it as a standard of comparison. In terms of noise, an in camera jpg will never live up to a raw standard but it can get very close. If you shoot jpg and depend upon the camera it is just a matter of setting to get the best. Usually, that involves balancing noise with sharpness then contrast. As others have said correct exposure, etc. are more important with the jpg.

The nature of a sensor means a less dense 12 mp should have much less noise than a 24 mp. Nikon etc. spend a great amount of time and expense trying to over come that problem.  Digital photography did not eliminate the responsibility of the photographer to process just made it easier with good results in camera or in the digital darkroom.

I am sorry but your examples looks poorly processed. Almost like unprocessed raw files. LIttle contrast,sharpness etc. If these are jpg the camera setting are way off. Again, all image files must be processed. I get my 7100 tomorrow and if any care are will probably have first hand opinion by next week.

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karlreed
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Re: Some more samples and...Get a second hand D700 if you want low noise..
In reply to mosswings, Mar 27, 2013

I too have been a little bit surprised by the noise in some current cameras' raw files.  I keep whinging about the RX100 Raw's, but, the jpgs are pretty good,

If you have any Nikon FX lenses, I suggest you get a D700 second hand. You'll get a good one for about $1300, I guess, and, its good for a up to 3200iso.

karl reed

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sssesq
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Re: Some more samples and...Get a second hand D700 if you want low noise..
In reply to karlreed, Mar 27, 2013

If you have any Nikon FX lenses, I suggest you get a D700 second hand. You'll get a good one for about $1300, I guess, and, its good for a up to 3200iso.

karl reed

For sports with just a little run thru LR (shooting raw) you can easily get 6400 out of a D700.

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edo21
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Re: Serious doubts on the D7100 at high ISO
In reply to edo21, Mar 27, 2013

As i wrote in the previous post i've to say something more about my way of living photography.

I'm not a photographer, I am a physicist working at the moment in the IT and communications field. I use one half of my photo production for work as i wrote in a previous post, and don't use to post process anything. This is the normal part.

The other part of my production is a personal research i conduct since i bought this camera.

It's about the relation between the light and the place where i live, Matera, that is not a common place. It's a place where man lives continuously since the Upper Palaeolithic. At present there is a large scientific and cultural gap of what happened here across thousands of years.

I found something very special (in part published in scientific papers) on the relation between light and the habits of the men during their continuity presence in this place. The light has been the main guide to achieve these results. We are talking about results in archeology and archeoastronomy.

Here is a picture of a very small part of this place

D7100 + tokina 11-16

This is a canyon with a lot of caves and rupestrian villages where every step you make
can be the last if you don't pay attention. Where is not the gravity or the rock the obstacle, you have a mediterranean jungle.

Going there as i usually do with a 10 kg backpack on the shoulder with two wide angles, a macro, a 70-200 and a 300, sometime also with the tripod, is more complicated than going in a safari. This place is much more wilde than you can imagine. All this effort not to lose the quality of one corner of the natural and cultural magnificence of this place.

When is possible or needed (frequently by scientific reason) the safari starts at the sunrise and finish at the sunset. I normally come back with 700 pictures that includes birds, flowers, mammals, other than caves, landascapes and pictures that support cultural or scientific aspects.

D7100 + tokina 16-50

Then there are some special moments like the following picture shows where you have to stay there or you loose the moment (3-5 minutes at all 2 time per year) The last time i had the camera with the 300 and a wind of 50-60 km/h impossible to shoot with tripod.

Sunset at the equinox - D90 + nikon 300/4 blowing in the wind

Well you may ask now what does it matter with the doubts on the D7100 iso performance.
You're right.

I needed a second body specific for the second part of my production and reading aboutthe D7100 it offers:
Improved AF - welcome
1.3 DX - welcome
better sensor - it's a great battle in this type of landscape
better video - welcome but tripod needed
Back to our thread, the most important result i've got up to now is that the D90 has covered gloriously all the part of my work and of this special production that goes from sunrise to sunset strictly in the 200 - 400 iso range, all manual settings, NEF, and no post processing.

In the 400 - 1600 (and over) range here there is the dark side of thousand years of history
at least as important as the sunny side.
I want to thank particularly Hulamike, fireplace33, and Mako2011 for their post.

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Kelly M Jones
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Re: Serious doubts on the D7100 at high ISO
In reply to edo21, Mar 27, 2013

edo21 wrote:

As i wrote in the previous post i've to say something more about my way of living photography.

I'm not a photographer, I am a physicist working at the moment in the IT and communications field. I use one half of my photo production for work as i wrote in a previous post, and don't use to post process anything. This is the normal part.

The other part of my production is a personal research i conduct since i bought this camera.

It's about the relation between the light and the place where i live, Matera, that is not a common place. It's a place where man lives continuously since the Upper Palaeolithic. At present there is a large scientific and cultural gap of what happened here across thousands of years.

In the 400 - 1600 (and over) range here there is the dark side of thousand years of history

at least as important as the sunny side.
I want to thank particularly Hulamike, fireplace33, and Mako2011 for their post.

Wow, I really envy your explorations. You beautifully described your work. I will not say anything more with regard to camera choices other than to say I look forward to what you produce with whichever camera you use.

Best Regards,

Kelly

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Mako2011
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I don't care
In reply to edo21, Mar 27, 2013

I really don't care how you do it...but I enjoy your photographs, think highly of your attitude and posting style, and have learned a thing or two from the discussions you've generated here. Please continue...I'll goes half's on a good suit of armor and some thick skin supplements Any time you need a little help, an opinion, or feel you have something to add...please do. It will be appreciated perhaps by only a single person...that's OK   Sometimes it takes a little effort too squeeze water out of this rock...but it can be worth it.

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My opinions are my own and not those of DPR or its administration. They carry no 'special' value (except to me and Lacie of course)

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toomanycanons
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Re: Serious doubts on the D7100 at high ISO
In reply to edo21, Mar 27, 2013

I gave up reading all the replies.  Could someone just summarize for me?  User error or does the D7100 suck?

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mosswings
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Re: Serious doubts on the D7100 at high ISO
In reply to edo21, Mar 28, 2013

Appreciate your filling us in on your research and how you use your camera to conduct it.  If you're taking 700 images on a daylong safari it's pretty obvious to see why you don't want to do heavy postprocessing. And the difference in processing time and storage needs for a library of 11MP D90 NEFs is a lot less than that required for a 29MP D7100 NEF, especially if one includes a downsizing to D90 resolution.  It looks like you want to use the full resolution of the D7100 to provide the highest resolution files that you can, and you want to minimize the load and risk that a tripod would entail in a dangerous place. The fact that you can downsize at will to gain noise performance is of little consequence in this situation.  What is needed is extremely low per-pixel noise.  As you and many others on this thread have observed, the D7100 has not improved that.  That means, unfortunately, a full frame camera.  Best of luck on your explorations.

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mnodonnell
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edo21, my apologies...
In reply to edo21, Mar 28, 2013

You've eloquently described your needs.  Good luck on your quest.

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pixd90
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Re: Serious doubts on the D7100 at high ISO
In reply to edo21, Mar 28, 2013

Great pictures and looking foward to seeing more, even if they are grainy.

I think your thread meant to say that the D7100 does not meet your expectations. As you stated "After hundreds thousands of shots with the D90 I can get what I expect, knowing that the usage limit for the D90 is ISO 400. I rent when i need D700 or D3s for works at 800 iso and more."

Were you satisifed with those cameras.

I don't think we will get the best out a DX until the price gets to about $1800. Hope the new canon 7d2 will push nikon to the limit.

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liv2paddle
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Re: Serious doubts on the D7100 at high ISO
In reply to toomanycanons, Mar 28, 2013

User error..you are underexposing your images and the shadows are showing noise..look at your histogram and make sure you get the bar graph over to the edge of the  right side without blowing the highlights..this is a great camera in the right hands! Buy the book Understanding Exposure by Byran Peterson.

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liv2paddle
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Re: Serious doubts on the D7100 at high ISO
In reply to liv2paddle, Mar 28, 2013

Sorry tried to include an edit but would not accept..the scene with city and sky needs a bracketed exposure..its a tough meter  so it requires a HDR blend of three photos or a ND filter.

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coudet
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Re: 24MP is really insufficient for the APS-C sensor
In reply to RichRMA, Mar 28, 2013

RichRMA wrote:

You compare the D7100 to Pentax K5IIs's (another camera with no AA filter) (16MP) RAW images in the Dpreview studio shot and it is about 1 stop noisier.  The Pentax shot at 3200 ISO looks like the Nikon shot at 1600 ISO, it even has less chroma noise.  The price you pay for all those pixels. 

This is due to several reasons. Let's identify them all, one by one, and eliminate them like the Terminator:

1- Read Mosswings's reply. You shouldn't compare different resolutions at 100% view. You have to normalize first if you want to compare at 100%. "Per-pixel" performance is completely irrelevant, what matters is the whole image.

2- Exposures are different, thanks to dpreview's testing being sloppy. Nikon is unfairly handicapped in dpreview's comparison, against that Pentax. This fools a lot of readers, and dpreview won't tell you this.

3- Pentax applies noise reduction. Again, a little cheating, to bias the results in it's favor and fool the reader.

IMO, they were better off at 16 than 24

Nope.

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coudet
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Re: Some more samples and...
In reply to mosswings, Mar 28, 2013

mosswings wrote:

and quantum efficiencies are above 50%, 65% in the case of the D5200/7100

I believe that's a typo on sensorgen, for the D5200/D7100.

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Nukunukoo
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Re: Serious doubts on the D7100 at high ISO
In reply to edo21, Mar 28, 2013

I do post processing and I have no doubts my new D7100 does better than my ole D300S!

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Nukunukoo
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Re: Some more samples and...
In reply to Berend Botje, Mar 28, 2013

Berend Botje wrote:

Edo21

I know in the end this all comes down to how much improvement we expect and at what price, but I have downloaded your 2 files of the D90 and D7100 and looking at them up close next to one another there is no question for me that the D7100 outperforms the D90 by a considerable margin. As a D90 shooter these pictures alone make a good case to me for upgrading to the D7100.

In fact, if Edo21 played around with the DR (I'm a new D7100 user, and also own a D300S), you will see how much the D7100 frags the D90 on the shadow recovery arena, especially with your great landscape photos! Your Pixel-Peeping is a dangerous sport (to paraphrase a contributor here)... So you have issues with the high resolution, then do this: resize your NEF to the D90's rez and be amazed at the Noise/Sharpness/DR comparisons at any ISO! Edo21, your journey with the D7100 is just beginning!

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Si Gif
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"Sports" 1000 ISO
In reply to edo21, Mar 28, 2013

I haven't had occasion  go to really high ISO yet but here's a lot of black at 1000

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mosswings
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Re: Some more samples and...
In reply to coudet, Mar 28, 2013

coudet wrote:

mosswings wrote:

and quantum efficiencies are above 50%, 65% in the case of the D5200/7100

I believe that's a typo on sensorgen, for the D5200/D7100.

I was wondering about that. 65% would make it the world's best DX sensor at 6400 ISO.  It also doesn't compute considering Jack Hogan's recent post on total effective QE, which includes the CFA: 15%.

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fireplace33
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Re: Serious doubts on the D7100 at high ISO
In reply to edo21, Mar 29, 2013

Hi edo21
Nice images and an interesting project!

Keep up the good work and enjoy the D7100.

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