Wish Nikon gives us 2x crop on a D800/D800E/D600/D4 via a firmware upgrade

Started Mar 19, 2013 | Discussions
shaunly
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Re: Wish Nikon gives us 2x crop on a D800/D800E/D600/D4 via a firmware upgrade
In reply to jfriend00, Mar 22, 2013

shaunly wrote:

What would be the advantage to your 2x crop vs. just cropping as desired in post processing?

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Same as with the 1.2x and 1.5x crops - metering only for the cropped area (with hopefully better metering for that area), the autofocus points being all inside the cropped area in the auto mode, etc.

You can set focus points to 21 or 9. You could also use center weighted if you really want to limit the metering area.

Each to their own, I guess, but I've never found it advantageous to set one of my cameras into a crop mode. I'd rather have the option of full screen or crop in post rather than limit myself onto to the crop area. Plus, you always get better results if you don't need to use the crop. A 2.0 crop would be throwing away a ton of DR, noise performance and resolution.

The one reason I understand an advantage of a crop mode is if the camera goes to higher fps when in crop mode (as the D800 does at 1.3x) or the D7100 does in it's 1.3x). But, you didn't cite that reason and I don't think that's going to help anything in the D800 when going to 2x as the mirror probably doesn't go any faster.

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In camera crop doesn't "throw away" anything. It's the same thing if you were to crop an image yourself in PP. I think you need to get a better understanding on this. The DR and ISO stays the same. Think about it this way, the camera is cropping the sensor output NOT the disabling the outter sensor border. So it's still using the full potential of the sensor.

The advantage for in camera crop is smaller file size (RAW and Jpeg) and convenience. It always nicer to have options.

Uhhh, you do lose DR and high ISO performance when you crop (whether it's done in-camera or in post processing). Why do you think FX has more DR and high ISO performance than DX? DX is just a crop of FX. When you blow up the image more (because you cropped it and then must magnify the remaining pixels more), you magnify the noise. Further, when you have fewer pixels in the output, the noise contribution of each pixel is more visible in the final output. And, one factor in DR is the noise floor so you lose noise performance and DR when you crop. This is math and physics at work.

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Sorry but you're wrong. I can take a picture at 36mp and a 1.5x crop, both raw and both will have the same shadow and highlight recovery. I can post samples if you really want me to.

Also the D800 at 100% noise level is very close to the D700 at 100%. So even if I crop it down to 12mp, the noise level will still be on par at the same viewing/print size.

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jfriend00
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Re: Wish Nikon gives us 2x crop on a D800/D800E/D600/D4 via a firmware upgrade
In reply to shaunly, Mar 22, 2013

shaunly wrote:

shaunly wrote:

What would be the advantage to your 2x crop vs. just cropping as desired in post processing?

-- hide signature --

Same as with the 1.2x and 1.5x crops - metering only for the cropped area (with hopefully better metering for that area), the autofocus points being all inside the cropped area in the auto mode, etc.

You can set focus points to 21 or 9. You could also use center weighted if you really want to limit the metering area.

Each to their own, I guess, but I've never found it advantageous to set one of my cameras into a crop mode. I'd rather have the option of full screen or crop in post rather than limit myself onto to the crop area. Plus, you always get better results if you don't need to use the crop. A 2.0 crop would be throwing away a ton of DR, noise performance and resolution.

The one reason I understand an advantage of a crop mode is if the camera goes to higher fps when in crop mode (as the D800 does at 1.3x) or the D7100 does in it's 1.3x). But, you didn't cite that reason and I don't think that's going to help anything in the D800 when going to 2x as the mirror probably doesn't go any faster.

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In camera crop doesn't "throw away" anything. It's the same thing if you were to crop an image yourself in PP. I think you need to get a better understanding on this. The DR and ISO stays the same. Think about it this way, the camera is cropping the sensor output NOT the disabling the outter sensor border. So it's still using the full potential of the sensor.

The advantage for in camera crop is smaller file size (RAW and Jpeg) and convenience. It always nicer to have options.

Uhhh, you do lose DR and high ISO performance when you crop (whether it's done in-camera or in post processing). Why do you think FX has more DR and high ISO performance than DX? DX is just a crop of FX. When you blow up the image more (because you cropped it and then must magnify the remaining pixels more), you magnify the noise. Further, when you have fewer pixels in the output, the noise contribution of each pixel is more visible in the final output. And, one factor in DR is the noise floor so you lose noise performance and DR when you crop. This is math and physics at work.

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Sorry but you're wrong. I can take a picture at 36mp and a 1.5x crop, both raw and both will have the same shadow and highlight recovery. I can post samples if you really want me to.

Sorry, but this is not correct.  Cropping lowers noise performance and raising the noise floor loses DR.  Why do you think smaller sensors have worse noise and DR performance than larger sensors?  If you have an appropriate way of measuring the actual performance, any experiment you run will show this.

Also the D800 at 100% noise level is very close to the D700 at 100%. So even if I crop it down to 12mp, the noise level will still be on par at the same viewing/print size.

D800 and D700 are different generations of sensor technology (the D800 improved significantly) so I'm not sure what you're trying to illustrate with this.

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shaunly
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Re: Wish Nikon gives us 2x crop on a D800/D800E/D600/D4 via a firmware upgrade
In reply to jfriend00, Mar 22, 2013

The camera doesn't crop the sensor, it crops the file output. So it's still using the full 35mm sensor. You are misinterpreting the way the cropping feat works.

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shaunly
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Re: Wish Nikon gives us 2x crop on a D800/D800E/D600/D4 via a firmware upgrade
In reply to jfriend00, Mar 22, 2013

shaunly wrote:

shaunly wrote:

What would be the advantage to your 2x crop vs. just cropping as desired in post processing?

-- hide signature --

Same as with the 1.2x and 1.5x crops - metering only for the cropped area (with hopefully better metering for that area), the autofocus points being all inside the cropped area in the auto mode, etc.

You can set focus points to 21 or 9. You could also use center weighted if you really want to limit the metering area.

Each to their own, I guess, but I've never found it advantageous to set one of my cameras into a crop mode. I'd rather have the option of full screen or crop in post rather than limit myself onto to the crop area. Plus, you always get better results if you don't need to use the crop. A 2.0 crop would be throwing away a ton of DR, noise performance and resolution.

The one reason I understand an advantage of a crop mode is if the camera goes to higher fps when in crop mode (as the D800 does at 1.3x) or the D7100 does in it's 1.3x). But, you didn't cite that reason and I don't think that's going to help anything in the D800 when going to 2x as the mirror probably doesn't go any faster.

-- hide signature --

In camera crop doesn't "throw away" anything. It's the same thing if you were to crop an image yourself in PP. I think you need to get a better understanding on this. The DR and ISO stays the same. Think about it this way, the camera is cropping the sensor output NOT the disabling the outter sensor border. So it's still using the full potential of the sensor.

The advantage for in camera crop is smaller file size (RAW and Jpeg) and convenience. It always nicer to have options.

Uhhh, you do lose DR and high ISO performance when you crop (whether it's done in-camera or in post processing). Why do you think FX has more DR and high ISO performance than DX? DX is just a crop of FX. When you blow up the image more (because you cropped it and then must magnify the remaining pixels more), you magnify the noise. Further, when you have fewer pixels in the output, the noise contribution of each pixel is more visible in the final output. And, one factor in DR is the noise floor so you lose noise performance and DR when you crop. This is math and physics at work.

-- hide signature --

Sorry but you're wrong. I can take a picture at 36mp and a 1.5x crop, both raw and both will have the same shadow and highlight recovery. I can post samples if you really want me to.

Sorry, but this is not correct.  Cropping lowers noise performance and raising the noise floor loses DR.  Why do you think smaller sensors have worse noise and DR performance than larger sensors?  If you have an appropriate way of measuring the actual performance, any experiment you run will show this.

Also the D800 at 100% noise level is very close to the D700 at 100%. So even if I crop it down to 12mp, the noise level will still be on par at the same viewing/print size.

D800 and D700 are different generations of sensor technology (the D800 improved significantly) so I'm not sure what you're trying to illustrate with this.

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I brought up the comparison to the D700 because of it's great high ISO for even today's standard. You mentioned in your first post that cropping the files of the D800 makes it become a 4/3 sensor in noise which is simply wrong.

Do you even own the D800?

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kevmac
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Re: Wish Nikon gives us 2x crop on a D800/D800E/D600/D4 via a firmware upgrade
In reply to whoosh1, Mar 22, 2013

I'm surprised people think it's that difficult to implement a relatively simple feature. I imagine dynamic cropping will be available sooner than we think.

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shaunly
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Re: Wish Nikon gives us 2x crop on a D800/D800E/D600/D4 via a firmware upgrade
In reply to kevmac, Mar 22, 2013

I'm surprised people think it's that difficult to implement a relatively simple feature. I imagine dynamic cropping will be available sooner than we think.

2x cropping also requires some hardware. When you select 1.2X/1.5X, the viewfinder shows an outline of the crop area. You can also set it so that the outter part greys out making easier to focus on the crop area.

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jfriend00
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Re: Wish Nikon gives us 2x crop on a D800/D800E/D600/D4 via a firmware upgrade
In reply to shaunly, Mar 22, 2013

shaunly wrote:

shaunly wrote:

shaunly wrote:

What would be the advantage to your 2x crop vs. just cropping as desired in post processing?

-- hide signature --

Same as with the 1.2x and 1.5x crops - metering only for the cropped area (with hopefully better metering for that area), the autofocus points being all inside the cropped area in the auto mode, etc.

You can set focus points to 21 or 9. You could also use center weighted if you really want to limit the metering area.

Each to their own, I guess, but I've never found it advantageous to set one of my cameras into a crop mode. I'd rather have the option of full screen or crop in post rather than limit myself onto to the crop area. Plus, you always get better results if you don't need to use the crop. A 2.0 crop would be throwing away a ton of DR, noise performance and resolution.

The one reason I understand an advantage of a crop mode is if the camera goes to higher fps when in crop mode (as the D800 does at 1.3x) or the D7100 does in it's 1.3x). But, you didn't cite that reason and I don't think that's going to help anything in the D800 when going to 2x as the mirror probably doesn't go any faster.

-- hide signature --

In camera crop doesn't "throw away" anything. It's the same thing if you were to crop an image yourself in PP. I think you need to get a better understanding on this. The DR and ISO stays the same. Think about it this way, the camera is cropping the sensor output NOT the disabling the outter sensor border. So it's still using the full potential of the sensor.

The advantage for in camera crop is smaller file size (RAW and Jpeg) and convenience. It always nicer to have options.

Uhhh, you do lose DR and high ISO performance when you crop (whether it's done in-camera or in post processing). Why do you think FX has more DR and high ISO performance than DX? DX is just a crop of FX. When you blow up the image more (because you cropped it and then must magnify the remaining pixels more), you magnify the noise. Further, when you have fewer pixels in the output, the noise contribution of each pixel is more visible in the final output. And, one factor in DR is the noise floor so you lose noise performance and DR when you crop. This is math and physics at work.

-- hide signature --

Sorry but you're wrong. I can take a picture at 36mp and a 1.5x crop, both raw and both will have the same shadow and highlight recovery. I can post samples if you really want me to.

Sorry, but this is not correct. Cropping lowers noise performance and raising the noise floor loses DR. Why do you think smaller sensors have worse noise and DR performance than larger sensors? If you have an appropriate way of measuring the actual performance, any experiment you run will show this.

Also the D800 at 100% noise level is very close to the D700 at 100%. So even if I crop it down to 12mp, the noise level will still be on par at the same viewing/print size.

D800 and D700 are different generations of sensor technology (the D800 improved significantly) so I'm not sure what you're trying to illustrate with this.

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I brought up the comparison to the D700 because of it's great high ISO for even today's standard. You mentioned in your first post that cropping the files of the D800 makes it become a 4/3 sensor in noise which is simply wrong.

A 2.0x crop on the D800 results in the essentially the same sensor size as a micro 4/3 camera (slightly different aspect ratio, but basically similar size).  You can see from the crop factor table in this article that the micro four-thirds format has a crop factor of 1.84-2.0.  So, with similar sensor technology, a 2.0x crop from a D800 would yield similar sensor performance to a micro 4/3 sensor.

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shaunly
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Re: Wish Nikon gives us 2x crop on a D800/D800E/D600/D4 via a firmware upgrade
In reply to jfriend00, Mar 22, 2013

Again, you are misinterpreting Nikon cropping feature.

By your logic, when the camera uses this feat, it is disabling the outter portion if the sensor thus turning it into a DX/1.2X size sensor. This is absolutely INCORRECT.

The camera is still utilizing the ENTIRE 35mm sensor. All it's doing is cropping the OUTPUT files. Because it's still using the entire sensor, you are not loosing any DR or noise performance.

Please read into this before you give false information. If you actually own the camera, a simple test will reveal this.

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Joe Porto
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Only if it resulted in 8FPS
In reply to whoosh1, Mar 22, 2013

If it doesn't increase the frame rate, what's the use? Just crop in post.

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jfriend00
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Re: Wish Nikon gives us 2x crop on a D800/D800E/D600/D4 via a firmware upgrade
In reply to shaunly, Mar 22, 2013

shaunly wrote:

Again, you are misinterpreting Nikon cropping feature.

By your logic, when the camera uses this feat, it is disabling the outter portion if the sensor thus turning it into a DX/1.2X size sensor. This is absolutely INCORRECT.

The camera is still utilizing the ENTIRE 35mm sensor. All it's doing is cropping the OUTPUT files. Because it's still using the entire sensor, you are not loosing any DR or noise performance.

Please read into this before you give false information. If you actually own the camera, a simple test will reveal this.

Sorry, you are not correct.  A crop is a crop.  It is NOT using the outer portion of the sensor when you set it for a crop mode.  It's not a downsize or a binning operation.  It's a crop and it is not using the outer portion of the sensor at all.  So a 2.0x crop mode, reduces the size of the sensor area used to about the same as a micro four thirds sensor.

I don't know where you're getting your information.  It works the same as the crop mode on the D2X or the crop mode on the D7100.  There's nothing unique to the crop mode on the D800 except that it starts with such high number of pixels that it still has a decent number of pixels left when doing a 1.5x crop (~15MP).

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RicksAstro
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Re: Wish Nikon gives us 2x crop on a D800/D800E/D600/D4 via a firmware upgrade
In reply to shaunly, Mar 22, 2013

shaunly wrote:

Again, you are misinterpreting Nikon cropping feature.

By your logic, when the camera uses this feat, it is disabling the outter portion if the sensor thus turning it into a DX/1.2X size sensor. This is absolutely INCORRECT.

The camera is still utilizing the ENTIRE 35mm sensor. All it's doing is cropping the OUTPUT files. Because it's still using the entire sensor, you are not loosing any DR or noise performance.

Please read into this before you give false information. If you actually own the camera, a simple test will reveal this.

I don't understand what you are saying the difference is between disabling the outer portion of the sensor and throwing it away in post...they result in an identical file!

You are correct that a file cropped in post would have identical characteristics as one done by the camera.

However, if you compare an image using the full frame at the same magnification as one taken from the cropped center (essentially magnifying the cropped version x2 compared to the full frame), the one taken full frame will have less visible noise since the noise is less magnified.

Less noise means the shadows will be less noisy and thus the full frame version will have a greater ability to pull the shadows (i.e. slightly more DR).

But if you are focal length limited (small birds), and are thus considering an identical crop from both at 100%, the results will be identical using crop mode or the full frame. All you would lose in crop mode is you would lose some flexibility in post to change the composition of the image.

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shaunly
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Re: Wish Nikon gives us 2x crop on a D800/D800E/D600/D4 via a firmware upgrade
In reply to jfriend00, Mar 22, 2013

shaunly wrote:

Again, you are misinterpreting Nikon cropping feature.

By your logic, when the camera uses this feat, it is disabling the outter portion if the sensor thus turning it into a DX/1.2X size sensor. This is absolutely INCORRECT.

The camera is still utilizing the ENTIRE 35mm sensor. All it's doing is cropping the OUTPUT files. Because it's still using the entire sensor, you are not loosing any DR or noise performance.

Please read into this before you give false information. If you actually own the camera, a simple test will reveal this.

Sorry, you are not correct.  A crop is a crop.  It is NOT using the outer portion of the sensor when you set it for a crop mode.  It's not a downsize or a binning operation.  It's a crop and it is not using the outer portion of the sensor at all.  So a 2.0x crop mode, reduces the size of the sensor area used to about the same as a micro four thirds sensor.

I don't know where you're getting your information.  It works the same as the crop mode on the D2X or the crop mode on the D7100.  There's nothing unique to the crop mode on the D800 except that it starts with such high number of pixels that it still has a decent number of pixels left when doing a 1.5x crop (~15MP).

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I can guarantee you that the DR and noise will look the same whether I shoot at 1.5X or full frame. Do you really need me to post samples to show you?

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jfriend00
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Re: Wish Nikon gives us 2x crop on a D800/D800E/D600/D4 via a firmware upgrade
In reply to shaunly, Mar 22, 2013

shaunly wrote:

shaunly wrote:

Again, you are misinterpreting Nikon cropping feature.

By your logic, when the camera uses this feat, it is disabling the outter portion if the sensor thus turning it into a DX/1.2X size sensor. This is absolutely INCORRECT.

The camera is still utilizing the ENTIRE 35mm sensor. All it's doing is cropping the OUTPUT files. Because it's still using the entire sensor, you are not loosing any DR or noise performance.

Please read into this before you give false information. If you actually own the camera, a simple test will reveal this.

Sorry, you are not correct. A crop is a crop. It is NOT using the outer portion of the sensor when you set it for a crop mode. It's not a downsize or a binning operation. It's a crop and it is not using the outer portion of the sensor at all. So a 2.0x crop mode, reduces the size of the sensor area used to about the same as a micro four thirds sensor.

I don't know where you're getting your information. It works the same as the crop mode on the D2X or the crop mode on the D7100. There's nothing unique to the crop mode on the D800 except that it starts with such high number of pixels that it still has a decent number of pixels left when doing a 1.5x crop (~15MP).

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I can guarantee you that the DR and noise will look the same whether I shoot at 1.5X or full frame. Do you really need me to post samples to show you?

100% view will look the same (they are the same pixels after all - just cut out of the center).  But they won't be the same if they are magnified to the exact same output size.

Why do you think DX sensors have worse noise characteristics than FX sensors.  Compare a D7100 to a D800.  When you shoot with the whole D800 sensor it has much better noise performance than the D7100.  There's nothing magical about the D800 sensor vs. the D7100 sensor.  It's just that the D800 sensor is more than twice the area so it captures more than twice the light so it has more than twice the signal-to-noise ratio (resulting in lower visible noise).  When you crop the image (and subsequently magnify the now smaller image to the same output size), you lose that signal-to-noise advantage.

Take a look at this chart that shows DR for lots of different sensors, including crop modes.

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shaunly
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Re: Wish Nikon gives us 2x crop on a D800/D800E/D600/D4 via a firmware upgrade
In reply to jfriend00, Mar 22, 2013

Ok so now we both agree, at 100% they are the same. It's only when you resample to the same size that the FF will have an advantage on noise due to the higher pixel from the original image, that I know.

I've tested a 36mp vs 1.2X (~24mp) at ISO6400. When both were resampled to 16mp final output, I was surprise to see zero difference in noise level.

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