Wish Nikon gives us 2x crop on a D800/D800E/D600/D4 via a firmware upgrade

Started Mar 19, 2013 | Discussions
whoosh1
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Wish Nikon gives us 2x crop on a D800/D800E/D600/D4 via a firmware upgrade
Mar 19, 2013

"You wish" kind of a wish - but it would be a great goodwill gesture from Nikon to add this via a firmware upgrade to the current FX DSLRs (all of which are not going to be replaced any time soon) a feature that is being provided via the 1.3x crop on D7100. It should be relatively straightforward to provide the firmware upgrade (except may be the greying out of the viewfinder which if not possible via firmware - can be acceptable if not present in the 1.3x crop). It would also be a win for Nikon - as it might boost the sales of the new Nikon 80-400mm AF-S VR (effectively could be 80-800mm equivalent) as well as quieten the anger in some of the D600/D800 customers.

Anyone else would be interested in this?

Nikon D600 Nikon D7100 Nikon D800
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Trevor Allen
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Re: Wish Nikon gives us 2x crop on a D800/D800E/D600/D4 via a firmware upgrade
In reply to whoosh1, Mar 19, 2013

Yes, it would be great for my events.

Come on Nikon

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asultan
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Re: Wish Nikon gives us 2x crop on a D800/D800E/D600/D4 via a firmware upgrade
In reply to Trevor Allen, Mar 19, 2013

I would like nikon to offer a 1:1 format via firmware upgrade. The square format just gives a different feel to pictures, and I would love to play around with that.

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frank-in-toronto
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Re: Wish Nikon gives us 2x crop on a D800/D800E/D600/D4 via a firmware upgrade
In reply to asultan, Mar 19, 2013

i genuinely hope their software designers are not spending time on a feature i can implement in post in 1 second.  the d800(e) may finally have made digital zoom useful.  but it's best application is in pp where different sections of the image could be used.

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krikman
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Re: Wish Nikon gives us 2x crop on a D800/D800E/D600/D4 via a firmware upgrade
In reply to asultan, Mar 19, 2013

Agree. I like perfect squares too.

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whoosh1
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Re: Wish Nikon gives us 2x crop on a D800/D800E/D600/D4 via a firmware upgrade
In reply to frank-in-toronto, Mar 19, 2013

So would the crop in the pp meter for that crop after the fact it is done - or restrict the focus to something inside the smaller 2x crop area (assuming the subject is moving and the single focus point will not yield the best results). Or reduce the file size for your workflow. Besides what else are those software folks busy on? :-).

If you can do the crop in 1 second - may be the software folks can add this support in 1 line of code (add the #define to the list of crops supported). I don't know why you are so against feature additions.

frank-in-toronto wrote:

i genuinely hope their software designers are not spending time on a feature i can implement in post in 1 second. the d800(e) may finally have made digital zoom useful. but it's best application is in pp where different sections of the image could be used.

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frank-in-toronto
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Re: Wish Nikon gives us 2x crop on a D800/D800E/D600/D4 via a firmware upgrade
In reply to whoosh1, Mar 20, 2013

i'm not against feature additions at all.  i just want the engineers to spend time on important ones (how about implementing hdr bracketing correctly?).  if you've ever worked in software/hardware design, you would know that changing anything for a device released around the world means design discussions/proposed solutions/implementation/testing and then support. that's a lot.  better i just set up a batch file to crop to any aspect ratio i want in pp.

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jfriend00
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Re: Wish Nikon gives us 2x crop on a D800/D800E/D600/D4 via a firmware upgrade
In reply to whoosh1, Mar 20, 2013

What would be the advantage to your 2x crop vs. just cropping as desired in post processing?

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whoosh1
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Re: Wish Nikon gives us 2x crop on a D800/D800E/D600/D4 via a firmware upgrade
In reply to frank-in-toronto, Mar 20, 2013

i'm not against feature additions at all. i just want the engineers to spend time on important ones (how about implementing hdr bracketing correctly?). if you've ever worked in software/hardware design, you would know that changing anything for a device released around the world means design discussions/proposed solutions/implementation/testing and then support. that's a lot. better i just set up a batch file to crop to any aspect ratio i want in pp.

I work in software design/development on networking products/firmware (various roles progressively - tester, developer, lead, manager, director, software architect). At one point of time - I had worked on a feature that was supposed to have consumed a significant amount of my time (having routes for  destinations to have an option to drop all packets on a match rather than forward) but was done in may be an hour or two - of course tested probably for a few days (whose manager may have claimed credit for a few weeks of effort), tracked & as a regular feature - and then later advertised with a cool name as one of the highlights of the release. The point is that the 2x crop is such a feature which should take hardly any effort (on top of the infrastructure to do the 1.2x and the 1.5x crops) for a Nikon developer & a SQA person. The implementing the correct hdr bracketing that you mention may not be such a low hanging fruit.

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whoosh1
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Re: Wish Nikon gives us 2x crop on a D800/D800E/D600/D4 via a firmware upgrade
In reply to jfriend00, Mar 20, 2013

What would be the advantage to your 2x crop vs. just cropping as desired in post processing?

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Same as with the 1.2x and 1.5x crops - metering only for the cropped area (with hopefully better metering for that area), the autofocus points being all inside the cropped area in the auto mode, etc.

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Antal I Kozma
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Re: Wish Nikon gives us 2x crop on a D800/D800E/D600/D4 via a firmware upgrade
In reply to whoosh1, Mar 20, 2013

Anyone else would be interested in this?

Not at all, seems like a lot of work for little practical use. Just have them fixed the existing issues and up quality control to deliver cameras without AF issues. Let cropping, square or not, up to the photographer.

That said, I like the square format. I was shooting square on 120 film with Hasselblad 500 CMs and Bronica SQAi. Anyway, I rather would like to "square up" a sensor than cropping it down to square.

Best, AIK

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jfriend00
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Re: Wish Nikon gives us 2x crop on a D800/D800E/D600/D4 via a firmware upgrade
In reply to whoosh1, Mar 20, 2013

What would be the advantage to your 2x crop vs. just cropping as desired in post processing?

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Same as with the 1.2x and 1.5x crops - metering only for the cropped area (with hopefully better metering for that area), the autofocus points being all inside the cropped area in the auto mode, etc.

You can set focus points to 21 or 9.  You could also use center weighted if you really want to limit the metering area.

Each to their own, I guess, but I've never found it advantageous to set one of my cameras into a crop mode.  I'd rather have the option of full screen or crop in post rather than limit myself onto to the crop area.  Plus, you always get better results if you don't need to use the crop.  A 2.0 crop would be throwing away a ton of DR, noise performance and resolution.

The one reason I understand an advantage of a crop mode is if the camera goes to higher fps when in crop mode (as the D800 does at 1.3x) or the D7100 does in it's 1.3x).  But, you didn't cite that reason and I don't think that's going to help anything in the D800 when going to 2x as the mirror probably doesn't go any faster.

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whoosh1
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Re: Wish Nikon gives us 2x crop on a D800/D800E/D600/D4 via a firmware upgrade
In reply to jfriend00, Mar 21, 2013

What would be the advantage to your 2x crop vs. just cropping as desired in post processing?

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Same as with the 1.2x and 1.5x crops - metering only for the cropped area (with hopefully better metering for that area), the autofocus points being all inside the cropped area in the auto mode, etc.

You can set focus points to 21 or 9. You could also use center weighted if you really want to limit the metering area.

I am not expert on metering but I will prefer the matrix metering on that crop. BTW I see in the menu on my D800 either 11 focus points or 51 - 21 & 9 are not present (where are you checking?).

Each to their own, I guess, but I've never found it advantageous to set one of my cameras into a crop mode. I'd rather have the option of full screen or crop in post rather than limit myself onto to the crop area. Plus, you always get better results if you don't need to use the crop. A 2.0 crop would be throwing away a ton of DR, noise performance and resolution.

I find the crop capability (lots of pixels) advantageous for carrying less number of lenses - if I am cropping anyway (in post or via a quick turn of the command dial while Fn button pressed while shooting) that I might as well have it possible for me to have smaller files. Also cropping while framing helps visualize the end picture better. If I already have access to 1.2x and 1.5x crops and find them useful - a 2x crop with still enough pixels will be useful as well (at least for the D800 & D800E where would be around 9 MP).

The one reason I understand an advantage of a crop mode is if the camera goes to higher fps when in crop mode (as the D800 does at 1.3x) or the D7100 does in it's 1.3x). But, you didn't cite that reason and I don't think that's going to help anything in the D800 when going to 2x as the mirror probably doesn't go any faster.

Higher fps is not much of an issue for me - as I don't shoot more than one shot at a time.

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jfriend00
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Re: Wish Nikon gives us 2x crop on a D800/D800E/D600/D4 via a firmware upgrade
In reply to whoosh1, Mar 21, 2013

What would be the advantage to your 2x crop vs. just cropping as desired in post processing?

-- hide signature --

Same as with the 1.2x and 1.5x crops - metering only for the cropped area (with hopefully better metering for that area), the autofocus points being all inside the cropped area in the auto mode, etc.

You can set focus points to 21 or 9. You could also use center weighted if you really want to limit the metering area.

I am not expert on metering but I will prefer the matrix metering on that crop. BTW I see in the menu on my D800 either 11 focus points or 51 - 21 & 9 are not present (where are you checking?).

Each to their own, I guess, but I've never found it advantageous to set one of my cameras into a crop mode. I'd rather have the option of full screen or crop in post rather than limit myself onto to the crop area. Plus, you always get better results if you don't need to use the crop. A 2.0 crop would be throwing away a ton of DR, noise performance and resolution.

I find the crop capability (lots of pixels) advantageous for carrying less number of lenses - if I am cropping anyway (in post or via a quick turn of the command dial while Fn button pressed while shooting) that I might as well have it possible for me to have smaller files. Also cropping while framing helps visualize the end picture better. If I already have access to 1.2x and 1.5x crops and find them useful - a 2x crop with still enough pixels will be useful as well (at least for the D800 & D800E where would be around 9 MP).

The one reason I understand an advantage of a crop mode is if the camera goes to higher fps when in crop mode (as the D800 does at 1.3x) or the D7100 does in it's 1.3x). But, you didn't cite that reason and I don't think that's going to help anything in the D800 when going to 2x as the mirror probably doesn't go any faster.

Higher fps is not much of an issue for me - as I don't shoot more than one shot at a time.

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OK, if you don't mind throwing away all that DR and noise performance such that you're getting the same performance as a micro four thirds camera (2.0x crop) with a lot smaller sensor, that's fine with me.  I can see why Nikon doesn't think most people would use their D800 that way though as you get much higher IQ if you actually use the larger sensor that you paid for.  But, if you want it, I won't keep you from asking for it.  I won't be using it that way though.

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Just a Photographer
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Re: Wish Nikon gives us 2x crop - No need
In reply to whoosh1, Mar 21, 2013

How difficult do you find this to do it in post production?
Doing this in post even gives you more flexibility too!

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Jurwees
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Re: Wish Nikon gives us 2x crop on a D800/D800E/D600/D4 via a firmware upgrade
In reply to whoosh1, Mar 21, 2013

The D800 already has more crop options than almost any other camera. A 2x crop option would not add anything meaningful to this. Also remember that a 2x crop would give you an almost useless small view area in the viewfinder.

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Jur

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AmerK
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Re: Wish Nikon gives us 2x crop - No need
In reply to Just a Photographer, Mar 22, 2013

Just a Photographer wrote:

How difficult do you find this to do it in post production?
Doing this in post even gives you more flexibility too!

true but you can't do it with video

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RicksAstro
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Re: Wish Nikon gives us 2x crop on a D800/D800E/D600/D4 via a firmware upgrade
In reply to whoosh1, Mar 22, 2013

whoosh1 wrote:

i'm not against feature additions at all. i just want the engineers to spend time on important ones (how about implementing hdr bracketing correctly?). if you've ever worked in software/hardware design, you would know that changing anything for a device released around the world means design discussions/proposed solutions/implementation/testing and then support. that's a lot. better i just set up a batch file to crop to any aspect ratio i want in pp.

I work in software design/development on networking products/firmware (various roles progressively - tester, developer, lead, manager, director, software architect). At one point of time - I had worked on a feature that was supposed to have consumed a significant amount of my time (having routes for destinations to have an option to drop all packets on a match rather than forward) but was done in may be an hour or two - of course tested probably for a few days (whose manager may have claimed credit for a few weeks of effort), tracked & as a regular feature - and then later advertised with a cool name as one of the highlights of the release. The point is that the 2x crop is such a feature which should take hardly any effort (on top of the infrastructure to do the 1.2x and the 1.5x crops) for a Nikon developer & a SQA person. The implementing the correct hdr bracketing that you mention may not be such a low hanging fruit.

To provide the correct shaded/outlined framing in the viewfinder, it may not be so simple as you think depending on the viewfinder HW implementation.   And with every SW change, you must deal with the law of unintended consequences.   I'm also in the embedded SW business for avionics, and I can't tell you how many times a small change caused a ripple effect despite extreme efforts to contain it.

I find in-camera cropping as useful as in-camera special effects (as in not useful at all).    I'd much rather have the complete field at my disposal, particularly for more dynamic subjects.   Restricting yourself to a crop when the subject gets nearer unexpectedly is unnecessary.

A 2x (or any) crop mode does not gain reach at all...the pixel density remains the same.   Your lens will not produce a more detailed image of that distant bird...it will be identical if cropped the same in post.  All you are doing is throwing away data at the edges.  There are many times I change my mind about the composition when I see it on a large screen and am glad I captured a little more to give me flexibility.

The physical focus point locations can't possibly change, and there are a myriad of selections of which are active.   And metering is biased towards the focus point (unless you are using center weighted, which you can also bias to be weighted towards the center).   So for shooting, I don't see any benefit to an artificial crop except for maybe video.

Yes, you can have smaller file sizes, but I'd rather buy a faster computer than waste pixels that you may find useful after the fact.   Yes, if you're cranking out thousands of shots at a wedding and dumping them on a CD with no PP, I can see a benefit.    But if you're going to tweak each image anyway, then cropping is just a small part of the workflow.    I try not to restrict myself to the traditional aspect ratios when cropping, which makes for far more interesting screen and book presentations.

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shaunly
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Re: Wish Nikon gives us 2x crop on a D800/D800E/D600/D4 via a firmware upgrade
In reply to jfriend00, Mar 22, 2013

What would be the advantage to your 2x crop vs. just cropping as desired in post processing?

-- hide signature --

Same as with the 1.2x and 1.5x crops - metering only for the cropped area (with hopefully better metering for that area), the autofocus points being all inside the cropped area in the auto mode, etc.

You can set focus points to 21 or 9.  You could also use center weighted if you really want to limit the metering area.

Each to their own, I guess, but I've never found it advantageous to set one of my cameras into a crop mode.  I'd rather have the option of full screen or crop in post rather than limit myself onto to the crop area.  Plus, you always get better results if you don't need to use the crop.  A 2.0 crop would be throwing away a ton of DR, noise performance and resolution.

The one reason I understand an advantage of a crop mode is if the camera goes to higher fps when in crop mode (as the D800 does at 1.3x) or the D7100 does in it's 1.3x).  But, you didn't cite that reason and I don't think that's going to help anything in the D800 when going to 2x as the mirror probably doesn't go any faster.

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In camera crop doesn't "throw away" anything. It's the same thing if you were to crop an image yourself in PP. I think you need to get a better understanding on this. The DR and ISO stays the same. Think about it this way, the camera is cropping the sensor output NOT the disabling the outter sensor border. So it's still using the full potential of the sensor.

The advantage for in camera crop is smaller file size (RAW and Jpeg) and convenience. It always nicer to have options.

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jfriend00
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Re: Wish Nikon gives us 2x crop on a D800/D800E/D600/D4 via a firmware upgrade
In reply to shaunly, Mar 22, 2013

shaunly wrote:

What would be the advantage to your 2x crop vs. just cropping as desired in post processing?

-- hide signature --

Same as with the 1.2x and 1.5x crops - metering only for the cropped area (with hopefully better metering for that area), the autofocus points being all inside the cropped area in the auto mode, etc.

You can set focus points to 21 or 9. You could also use center weighted if you really want to limit the metering area.

Each to their own, I guess, but I've never found it advantageous to set one of my cameras into a crop mode. I'd rather have the option of full screen or crop in post rather than limit myself onto to the crop area. Plus, you always get better results if you don't need to use the crop. A 2.0 crop would be throwing away a ton of DR, noise performance and resolution.

The one reason I understand an advantage of a crop mode is if the camera goes to higher fps when in crop mode (as the D800 does at 1.3x) or the D7100 does in it's 1.3x). But, you didn't cite that reason and I don't think that's going to help anything in the D800 when going to 2x as the mirror probably doesn't go any faster.

-- hide signature --

In camera crop doesn't "throw away" anything. It's the same thing if you were to crop an image yourself in PP. I think you need to get a better understanding on this. The DR and ISO stays the same. Think about it this way, the camera is cropping the sensor output NOT the disabling the outter sensor border. So it's still using the full potential of the sensor.

The advantage for in camera crop is smaller file size (RAW and Jpeg) and convenience. It always nicer to have options.

Uhhh, you do lose DR and high ISO performance when you crop (whether it's done in-camera or in post processing). Why do you think FX has more DR and high ISO performance than DX? DX is just a crop of FX. When you blow up the image more (because you cropped it and then must magnify the remaining pixels more), you magnify the noise. Further, when you have fewer pixels in the output, the noise contribution of each pixel is more visible in the final output. And, one factor in DR is the noise floor so you lose noise performance and DR when you crop. This is math and physics at work.

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