*** 5Dc vs 60D resolution test ***

Started Mar 17, 2013 | Discussions
Steen Bay
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Re: relate
In reply to qianp2k, Mar 19, 2013

qianp2k wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

Steen Bay wrote:

schmegg wrote:

Sharpness and resolution are not the same thing! But you use them interchangeably!

Well, don't almost everybody do that?

No. They define the two very differently and explain how the relate to each other.

Actually DXOMark uses the two words interchangeably but they don't mean acutance. DXOMark's P-MPix is based on MTF data.

But which MTF data? MTF-50 or MTF-10, or something else? That's the problem here. Guess that the 5Dc has a higher MTF-50 resolution than the 7D, and the 7D a higher MTF-10 resolution than 5Dc.

Photozone call it "MTF (resolution)". Isn't it OK to call it "the MTF-50 resolution", if that's what it is? Would it be better to measure e.g. the MTF-10 resolution? On DxO we could see the full MTF graphs before, but unfortunately not any more.

Because they score a not well understood hybrid subjective measurement now. Good for comparing like formats or different lens on same body. Less useful as an absolute but kind of an "in the ballpark" result.

I agree DXOMark should publish the formula for how they calculate P-MPix, maybe based on average MTF cross entire frame (center, mid-range, edges, corners) mixed with some other tested data in some ohter areas?

For example DXOMark just tested Sigma 35/1.4 on D800 with 23 P-MPix vs 17 P-MPix on 5D2. I think it's about right.

Yes, sounds reasonable, but if comparing the D800 and the D3x, then the scores are 23 vs. 20 P-Mpix, and that's with a very good lens. On average (with other lenses) the D800 only scores 10% higher than the D3x, which isn't much considering that the D800 has 50% more pixels.

http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/Lenses/Compare-Camera-Lenses/Compare-lenses/(lens1)/1056/(brand)/Sigma/(camera1)/0/(lens2)/1057/(brand2)/Sigma/(camera2)/0

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schmegg
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Re: relate
In reply to qianp2k, Mar 19, 2013

qianp2k wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

Steen Bay wrote:

schmegg wrote:

Sharpness and resolution are not the same thing! But you use them interchangeably!

Well, don't almost everybody do that?

No. They define the two very differently and explain how the relate to each other.

Actually DXOMark uses the two words interchangeably but they don't mean acutance. DXOMark's P-MPix is based on MTF data.

I'm sorry Peter, but you are wrong. And, in DxO's own words ...

"The MTF precisely describes the contrast attenuation: for each spatial frequency, the MTF plots the ratio of the output modulation versus the test object modulation."

In other words, it's an acutance test.

And DxO very rarely use the two words interchangeably, as they are not the same thing. You will notice that they P-MPix score is a measure of sharpness, not resolution!

In fact, on their Measurements tab, there is no resolution results either - just sharpness.

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Steen Bay
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Re: relate
In reply to schmegg, Mar 19, 2013

qianp2k wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

Steen Bay wrote:

schmegg wrote:

Sharpness and resolution are not the same thing! But you use them interchangeably!

Well, don't almost everybody do that?

No. They define the two very differently and explain how the relate to each other.

Actually DXOMark uses the two words interchangeably but they don't mean acutance. DXOMark's P-MPix is based on MTF data.

I'm sorry Peter, but you are wrong. And, in DxO's own words ...

"The MTF precisely describes the contrast attenuation: for each spatial frequency, the MTF plots the ratio of the output modulation versus the test object modulation."

In other words, it's an acutance test.

And DxO very rarely use the two words interchangeably, as they are not the same thing. You will notice that they P-MPix score is a measure of sharpness, not resolution!

In fact, on their Measurements tab, there is no resolution results either - just sharpness.

Yes, they call it 'sharpness' now, but think that they called it 'resolution' before the P-Mpix score was introduced. Sounds wrong to say the "the sharpness is 47 lp/mm", and they also say that "the DxO resolution score shows sharpness performance.." (about/lens scores).

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MAC
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Re: relate
In reply to Steen Bay, Mar 19, 2013

according to dxo MPix, Nikon's 24-70 F2.8 and 70-200 F2.8 VR zooms get crushed to 15 MPix on a D800

Sad, if true

 MAC's gear list:MAC's gear list
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qianp2k
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CR2 files posted
In reply to qianp2k, Mar 20, 2013

Here are CR2 RAW Files

Added two with 70-200L/4.0 IS. They are 100% cropped and processed by ACR with zero sharpening and zero NR (all other default) but cut most parts of sky and lawn to save my DPR gallery space.

There is a glitch at the moment to directly insert gallery photos.

ACR 5D + 70-200L/4.0 IS 100% cropped  (upsampling 5D2 file to the same size of 60D file 5184x3456 before cropping to 100%)

ACR 60D + 70-200L/4.0 IS 100% cropped

To my eyes, 5D sample not only is sharper but also resolves more details (such as on bricks) at least with this lens. 5D photo also has better default contrast and color.

As I said this time I shoot from too far away under not very good light condition. I will do again in much closer distance under better light condition that will benefits 60D more.

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Great Bustard
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May I play?
In reply to MAC, Mar 20, 2013

schmegg wrote:

Here's another not-macro, this one from a crop ...

you out -did gianp2k's closeups imo - and you did it with a crop! Nice! Folks should spend more time making these type of images instead of investing $15K in heavy paper weights that will eventually be stolen while they are on vacation or eventually make their wife fed up as she carries the heavy gear! Sorry, couldn't resist!

btw - It is my opinion that Canon gave T4i owners the best RAW output accutance of all their 18 mpxl cameras -- as Bryan describes in The Digital Picture review of the T4i.

Here's a closeup from the Canon G1 -- a 10+ year old 3 MP compact:

Canon G1 @ 7mm, f / 4 (35mm, f / 19 -- FF equivalent), 1/320, ISO 50

Even got some shallow DOF going on. 

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Mako2011
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on left
In reply to qianp2k, Mar 20, 2013

Here are CR2 RAW Files

Added two with 70-200L/4.0 IS. They are 100% cropped and processed by ACR with zero sharpening and zero NR (all other default) but cut most parts of sky and lawn to save my DPR gallery space.

ACR 5D + 70-200L/4.0 IS 100% cropped (upsampling 5D2 file to the same size of 60D file 5184x3456 before cropping to 100%)

ACR 60D + 70-200L/4.0 IS 100% cropped

Cool

To my eyes, 5D sample not only is sharper but also resolves more details (such as on bricks) at least with this lens. 5D photo also has better default contrast and color.

Not sure...Here the 60D on the left. I'd give it a slight resolution advantage but very slight.

Click view original size to see it though

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schmegg
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Re: CR2 files posted
In reply to qianp2k, Mar 20, 2013

Here are CR2 RAW Files

Added two with 70-200L/4.0 IS. They are 100% cropped and processed by ACR with zero sharpening and zero NR (all other default) but cut most parts of sky and lawn to save my DPR gallery space.

There is a glitch at the moment to directly insert gallery photos.

ACR 5D + 70-200L/4.0 IS 100% cropped (upsampling 5D2 file to the same size of 60D file 5184x3456 before cropping to 100%)

ACR 60D + 70-200L/4.0 IS 100% cropped

To my eyes, 5D sample not only is sharper but also resolves more details (such as on bricks) at least with this lens. 5D photo also has better default contrast and color.

As I said this time I shoot from too far away under not very good light condition. I will do again in much closer distance under better light condition that will benefits 60D more.

Thank you - most helpful and I do appreciate you making them available.

Now - to the subject at hand ...

It is clear, even with these images (which were shot wide open with the 60D but stopped down one stop with the 5D) that the 60D resolves more detail.

Some examples where this is easy to see - be sure to view these at full size to see the full effects ...

1. Look at the detail in the hair, look at the eyes, look at the lips, look at the curved 'frame' around him ...

60D on left, 5D on right.

2. In this example it is clear that the 5D was completely unable to resolve the chain-wire mesh in the fence, whereas the 60D has managed to capture it reasonable well (considering how far away this was!) ...

60D on left, 5D on right.

3. In this example the DO NOT ENTER sign in the 60D image is readable or close to it whereas the 5D has just rendered a mess. Also, look at the edge on the sign between the red and white areas. Also look at the edges of the slanted timber support in the top left-hand corner - the 60D has done OK but the 5D has rendered a staircase ...

60D on left, 5D on right.

Those three examples are just a few of the many areas where it is obvious. The more you look, the more you see.

It's a shame the 60D didn't have the benefit of the one-stop closed aperture that the 5D enjoyed for this test, but, in any case, it made no difference.

The 60D has clearly resolved more detail.

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MAC
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Re: CR2 files posted
In reply to schmegg, Mar 20, 2013

Here are CR2 RAW Files

Added two with 70-200L/4.0 IS. They are 100% cropped and processed by ACR with zero sharpening and zero NR (all other default) but cut most parts of sky and lawn to save my DPR gallery space.

There is a glitch at the moment to directly insert gallery photos.

ACR 5D + 70-200L/4.0 IS 100% cropped (upsampling 5D2 file to the same size of 60D file 5184x3456 before cropping to 100%)

ACR 60D + 70-200L/4.0 IS 100% cropped

To my eyes, 5D sample not only is sharper but also resolves more details (such as on bricks) at least with this lens. 5D photo also has better default contrast and color.

As I said this time I shoot from too far away under not very good light condition. I will do again in much closer distance under better light condition that will benefits 60D more.

Thank you - most helpful and I do appreciate you making them available.

Now - to the subject at hand ...

It is clear, even with these images (which were shot wide open with the 60D but stopped down one stop with the 5D) that the 60D resolves more detail.

Some examples where this is easy to see - be sure to view these at full size to see the full effects ...

1. Look at the detail in the hair, look at the eyes, look at the lips, look at the curved 'frame' around him ...

agree, sharpness, actuance and visual artifacts are not resolution.

60D on left, 5D on right.

It's a shame the 60D didn't have the benefit of the one-stop closed aperture that the 5D enjoyed for this test, but, in any case, it made no difference.

The 60D has clearly resolved more detail.

well, actually he needed a higher f stop on the 5d to be equivalent dof

he should have read GB's equivalence which he refuses

F4 * 1.6 = 6.5.  He should have used F6.3 instead of 5.6

Scape shots are often difficult to determine where the focus point latched on

therefore, chain link can't be a measure and landscape shots are suspect for comparison

 MAC's gear list:MAC's gear list
Canon EOS 5D Canon EOS 650D Canon EOS 100D Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L USM Canon EF 100mm f/2.8L Macro IS USM +6 more
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MAC
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challenge to gianp2k
In reply to Great Bustard, Mar 20, 2013

schmegg wrote:

Here's another not-macro, this one from a crop ...

you out -did gianp2k's closeups imo - and you did it with a crop! Nice! Folks should spend more time making these type of images instead of investing $15K in heavy paper weights that will eventually be stolen while they are on vacation or eventually make their wife fed up as she carries the heavy gear! Sorry, couldn't resist!

btw - It is my opinion that Canon gave T4i owners the best RAW output accutance of all their 18 mpxl cameras -- as Bryan describes in The Digital Picture review of the T4i.

Here's a closeup from the Canon G1 -- a 10+ year old 3 MP compact:

Canon G1 @ 7mm, f / 4 (35mm, f / 19 -- FF equivalent), 1/320, ISO 50

Even got some shallow DOF going on.

It is not always about shallow dof.  In fact, with my G3 I looked to for deep dof.

My challenge to gianp2k is that he bring back a better photo with his $15K of heavy gear when he goes to Africa later this year.  Be careful though, one of these took out a Zebra with its horn a few years later

 MAC's gear list:MAC's gear list
Canon EOS 5D Canon EOS 650D Canon EOS 100D Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L USM Canon EF 100mm f/2.8L Macro IS USM +6 more
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schmegg
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Re: CR2 files posted
In reply to MAC, Mar 20, 2013

Here are CR2 RAW Files

Added two with 70-200L/4.0 IS. They are 100% cropped and processed by ACR with zero sharpening and zero NR (all other default) but cut most parts of sky and lawn to save my DPR gallery space.

There is a glitch at the moment to directly insert gallery photos.

ACR 5D + 70-200L/4.0 IS 100% cropped (upsampling 5D2 file to the same size of 60D file 5184x3456 before cropping to 100%)

ACR 60D + 70-200L/4.0 IS 100% cropped

To my eyes, 5D sample not only is sharper but also resolves more details (such as on bricks) at least with this lens. 5D photo also has better default contrast and color.

As I said this time I shoot from too far away under not very good light condition. I will do again in much closer distance under better light condition that will benefits 60D more.

Thank you - most helpful and I do appreciate you making them available.

Now - to the subject at hand ...

It is clear, even with these images (which were shot wide open with the 60D but stopped down one stop with the 5D) that the 60D resolves more detail.

Some examples where this is easy to see - be sure to view these at full size to see the full effects ...

1. Look at the detail in the hair, look at the eyes, look at the lips, look at the curved 'frame' around him ...

agree, sharpness, actuance and visual artifacts are not resolution.

Correct.

60D on left, 5D on right.

It's a shame the 60D didn't have the benefit of the one-stop closed aperture that the 5D enjoyed for this test, but, in any case, it made no difference.

The 60D has clearly resolved more detail.

well, actually he needed a higher f stop on the 5d to be equivalent dof

There's no need to worry about DOF for this particular shot when using an f4 lens - nor the others.

It's more reasonable to use a lens setting that provides a more equal sharpness for a comparison such as this.

So, MAC, if you are trying to pull detail from the scene, wouldn't you set the lens at it's optimum aperture for this purpose in shots such as these, regardless of the sensor size? I know I would.

he should have read GB's equivalence which he refuses

F4 * 1.6 = 6.5. He should have used F6.3 instead of 5.6

Scape shots are often difficult to determine where the focus point latched on

therefore, chain link can't be a measure and landscape shots are suspect for comparison

So, after you asked for this type of test MAC, you now don't accept it!

I find his ironic, as I told you that these types of inconsistencies would be present with this type of testing - but you continued to call for it. And now it's done - you are dismissing it due to possible inconsistencies! LOL!

Why don't you shoot some then? You have the cameras I believe. If you think you can do better - then why not?

Personally, I think Peter did a reasonable job, and I appreciate him both taking the time to do it and also posting the raw files up for everyone. That's very good of him.

The difference I see is about what I expected to see. Not huge by any means in a practical sense, but never-the-less contrary to Peters claims.

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MAC
MAC
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Re: CR2 files posted
In reply to schmegg, Mar 20, 2013

Here are CR2 RAW Files

Added two with 70-200L/4.0 IS. They are 100% cropped and processed by ACR with zero sharpening and zero NR (all other default) but cut most parts of sky and lawn to save my DPR gallery space.

There is a glitch at the moment to directly insert gallery photos.

ACR 5D + 70-200L/4.0 IS 100% cropped (upsampling 5D2 file to the same size of 60D file 5184x3456 before cropping to 100%)

ACR 60D + 70-200L/4.0 IS 100% cropped

To my eyes, 5D sample not only is sharper but also resolves more details (such as on bricks) at least with this lens. 5D photo also has better default contrast and color.

As I said this time I shoot from too far away under not very good light condition. I will do again in much closer distance under better light condition that will benefits 60D more.

Thank you - most helpful and I do appreciate you making them available.

Now - to the subject at hand ...

It is clear, even with these images (which were shot wide open with the 60D but stopped down one stop with the 5D) that the 60D resolves more detail.

Some examples where this is easy to see - be sure to view these at full size to see the full effects ...

1. Look at the detail in the hair, look at the eyes, look at the lips, look at the curved 'frame' around him ...

agree, sharpness, actuance and visual artifacts are not resolution.

Correct.

60D on left, 5D on right.

It's a shame the 60D didn't have the benefit of the one-stop closed aperture that the 5D enjoyed for this test, but, in any case, it made no difference.

The 60D has clearly resolved more detail.

well, actually he needed a higher f stop on the 5d to be equivalent dof

There's no need to worry about DOF for this particular shot when using an f4 lens - nor the others.

It's more reasonable to use a lens setting that provides a more equal sharpness for a comparison such as this.

So, MAC, if you are trying to pull detail from the scene, wouldn't you set the lens at it's optimum aperture for this purpose in shots such as these, regardless of the sensor size? I know I would.

yes I would, but isn't F4 great on that lens?

he should have read GB's equivalence which he refuses

F4 * 1.6 = 6.5. He should have used F6.3 instead of 5.6

Scape shots are often difficult to determine where the focus point latched on

therefore, chain link can't be a measure and landscape shots are suspect for comparison

So, after you asked for this type of test MAC, you now don't accept it!

where is his focal point control? You ever whipped out of view a fence at a zoo with a long lens?

Why don't you shoot some then? You have the cameras I believe. If you think you can do better - then why not?

Cause I know it is a waste of time! i know already at deep dof -- f4 and above -- and iso 100 -400 where scapes are mostly shot -- that both are great for even enlargements in prints as high as I go - 20x30

Personally, I think Peter did a reasonable job, and the difference I see is about what I expected to see. Not huge by any means in a practical sense, but never-the-less contrary to Peters claims.

agree - with the dollar shot, some uncertainty with the scape shot in focal point and equivalent dof.

 MAC's gear list:MAC's gear list
Canon EOS 5D Canon EOS 650D Canon EOS 100D Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L USM Canon EF 100mm f/2.8L Macro IS USM +6 more
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schmegg
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Re: CR2 files posted
In reply to MAC, Mar 20, 2013

Here are CR2 RAW Files

Added two with 70-200L/4.0 IS. They are 100% cropped and processed by ACR with zero sharpening and zero NR (all other default) but cut most parts of sky and lawn to save my DPR gallery space.

There is a glitch at the moment to directly insert gallery photos.

ACR 5D + 70-200L/4.0 IS 100% cropped (upsampling 5D2 file to the same size of 60D file 5184x3456 before cropping to 100%)

ACR 60D + 70-200L/4.0 IS 100% cropped

To my eyes, 5D sample not only is sharper but also resolves more details (such as on bricks) at least with this lens. 5D photo also has better default contrast and color.

As I said this time I shoot from too far away under not very good light condition. I will do again in much closer distance under better light condition that will benefits 60D more.

Thank you - most helpful and I do appreciate you making them available.

Now - to the subject at hand ...

It is clear, even with these images (which were shot wide open with the 60D but stopped down one stop with the 5D) that the 60D resolves more detail.

Some examples where this is easy to see - be sure to view these at full size to see the full effects ...

1. Look at the detail in the hair, look at the eyes, look at the lips, look at the curved 'frame' around him ...

agree, sharpness, actuance and visual artifacts are not resolution.

Correct.

60D on left, 5D on right.

It's a shame the 60D didn't have the benefit of the one-stop closed aperture that the 5D enjoyed for this test, but, in any case, it made no difference.

The 60D has clearly resolved more detail.

well, actually he needed a higher f stop on the 5d to be equivalent dof

There's no need to worry about DOF for this particular shot when using an f4 lens - nor the others.

It's more reasonable to use a lens setting that provides a more equal sharpness for a comparison such as this.

So, MAC, if you are trying to pull detail from the scene, wouldn't you set the lens at it's optimum aperture for this purpose in shots such as these, regardless of the sensor size? I know I would.

yes I would, but isn't F4 great on that lens?

Dunno TBH. I'd have though a stop down would have been better though. Usually that's the case - but I don't have that lens - so I can't be 100% sure.

he should have read GB's equivalence which he refuses

F4 * 1.6 = 6.5. He should have used F6.3 instead of 5.6

Scape shots are often difficult to determine where the focus point latched on

therefore, chain link can't be a measure and landscape shots are suspect for comparison

So, after you asked for this type of test MAC, you now don't accept it!

where is his focal point control? You ever whipped out of view a fence at a zoo with a long lens?

Certainly have - but not at that distance! I'm not sure it would be possible at all at that distance with f5.6. TBH - I think your off the mark with that theory.

Why don't you shoot some then? You have the cameras I believe. If you think you can do better - then why not?

Cause I know it is a waste of time! i know already at deep dof -- f4 and above -- and iso 100 -400 where scapes are mostly shot -- that both are great for even enlargements in prints as high as I go - 20x30

Yes - I think most of us do.

Does make me wonder why you kept asking for a test such as this though.

Personally, I think Peter did a reasonable job, and the difference I see is about what I expected to see. Not huge by any means in a practical sense, but never-the-less contrary to Peters claims.

agree - with the dollar shot, some uncertainty with the scape shot in focal point and equivalent dof.

What you see in the "dollar shot" (hehe) will apply to any other shot you care to take. The camera simply resolves less detail. You can see it in all the shots.

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nedelcho
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Re: CR2 files posted
In reply to schmegg, Mar 20, 2013

Here are CR2 RAW Files

Added two with 70-200L/4.0 IS. They are 100% cropped and processed by ACR with zero sharpening and zero NR (all other default) but cut most parts of sky and lawn to save my DPR gallery space.

There is a glitch at the moment to directly insert gallery photos.

ACR 5D + 70-200L/4.0 IS 100% cropped (upsampling 5D2 file to the same size of 60D file 5184x3456 before cropping to 100%)

ACR 60D + 70-200L/4.0 IS 100% cropped

To my eyes, 5D sample not only is sharper but also resolves more details (such as on bricks) at least with this lens. 5D photo also has better default contrast and color.

As I said this time I shoot from too far away under not very good light condition. I will do again in much closer distance under better light condition that will benefits 60D more.

Thank you - most helpful and I do appreciate you making them available.

Now - to the subject at hand ...

It is clear, even with these images (which were shot wide open with the 60D but stopped down one stop with the 5D) that the 60D resolves more detail.

Some examples where this is easy to see - be sure to view these at full size to see the full effects ...

1. Look at the detail in the hair, look at the eyes, look at the lips, look at the curved 'frame' around him ...

60D on left, 5D on right.

2. In this example it is clear that the 5D was completely unable to resolve the chain-wire mesh in the fence, whereas the 60D has managed to capture it reasonable well (considering how far away this was!) ...

60D on left, 5D on right.

3. In this example the DO NOT ENTER sign in the 60D image is readable or close to it whereas the 5D has just rendered a mess. Also, look at the edge on the sign between the red and white areas. Also look at the edges of the slanted timber support in the top left-hand corner - the 60D has done OK but the 5D has rendered a staircase ...

60D on left, 5D on right.

Those three examples are just a few of the many areas where it is obvious. The more you look, the more you see.

It's a shame the 60D didn't have the benefit of the one-stop closed aperture that the 5D enjoyed for this test, but, in any case, it made no difference.

The 60D has clearly resolved more detail.

I was about to post my conversion of the supplied RAW files and make similar observations, when I saw this post. You actually summarized it pretty well. It is clear that 60D has more detail, even if qianp2k intentionally crippled 60D, when he used 24mm wide open (where 24-105 is weak) and closed aperture for the 5D. But nevertheless he again failed to prove his point. Soon I'll post another comparison to visualize some other aspects.

And thanks again to qianp2k, to post this comparison proving my point :).

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qianp2k
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Re: CR2 files posted
In reply to nedelcho, Mar 20, 2013

Here are CR2 RAW Files

Added two with 70-200L/4.0 IS. They are 100% cropped and processed by ACR with zero sharpening and zero NR (all other default) but cut most parts of sky and lawn to save my DPR gallery space.

There is a glitch at the moment to directly insert gallery photos.

ACR 5D + 70-200L/4.0 IS 100% cropped (upsampling 5D2 file to the same size of 60D file 5184x3456 before cropping to 100%)

ACR 60D + 70-200L/4.0 IS 100% cropped

To my eyes, 5D sample not only is sharper but also resolves more details (such as on bricks) at least with this lens. 5D photo also has better default contrast and color.

As I said this time I shoot from too far away under not very good light condition. I will do again in much closer distance under better light condition that will benefits 60D more.

Thank you - most helpful and I do appreciate you making them available.

Now - to the subject at hand ...

It is clear, even with these images (which were shot wide open with the 60D but stopped down one stop with the 5D) that the 60D resolves more detail.

Some examples where this is easy to see - be sure to view these at full size to see the full effects ...

1. Look at the detail in the hair, look at the eyes, look at the lips, look at the curved 'frame' around him ...

60D on left, 5D on right.

2. In this example it is clear that the 5D was completely unable to resolve the chain-wire mesh in the fence, whereas the 60D has managed to capture it reasonable well (considering how far away this was!) ...

60D on left, 5D on right.

3. In this example the DO NOT ENTER sign in the 60D image is readable or close to it whereas the 5D has just rendered a mess. Also, look at the edge on the sign between the red and white areas. Also look at the edges of the slanted timber support in the top left-hand corner - the 60D has done OK but the 5D has rendered a staircase ...

60D on left, 5D on right.

Those three examples are just a few of the many areas where it is obvious. The more you look, the more you see.

It's a shame the 60D didn't have the benefit of the one-stop closed aperture that the 5D enjoyed for this test, but, in any case, it made no difference.

The 60D has clearly resolved more detail.

I was about to post my conversion of the supplied RAW files and make similar observations, when I saw this post. You actually summarized it pretty well. It is clear that 60D has more detail, even if qianp2k intentionally crippled 60D, when he used 24mm wide open (where 24-105 is weak) and closed aperture for the 5D. But nevertheless he again failed to prove his point. Soon I'll post another comparison to visualize some other aspects.

Intentionally? You use a strong word. The reason I used 24mm on 60D is simply because it starts at 24mm and will guarantee at 24mm while I have to guess on 5D. I truly don't have agenda.

And thanks again to qianp2k, to post this comparison proving my point :).

But no thanks . You and schemegg seem having agenda and just want to see you already made in your mind. I cannot analyze schemegg's processed photos after his massage in office until I return home tonight. There are many factors involved, such as shallower DOF in 5D photos (in RAW files, you can see where I focus actually. I focus on the school building not stop sign or whatever else). Nevertheless by default 5D files to my eyes are clearly cleaner with better colors and contrast. I can see at least with 70-200L/4.0 IS, it resolves bricks better (where I focus upon). In real world photos, you need to apply a stronger NR and CA fix in PP on 60D files that will inevitably have to smear some details to get cleaner photos while you need to do much less on 5D files. So you also need to bear all these in mind. As I said this time I shoot too far away and the weather then was a bit mushy in an overcast day. Once I had chance in much warmer day, I'd do again in much closer distance and may use F5.6 on 60D and F8.0 on 5D.

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schmegg
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Re: CR2 files posted
In reply to qianp2k, Mar 20, 2013

Here are CR2 RAW Files

Added two with 70-200L/4.0 IS. They are 100% cropped and processed by ACR with zero sharpening and zero NR (all other default) but cut most parts of sky and lawn to save my DPR gallery space.

There is a glitch at the moment to directly insert gallery photos.

ACR 5D + 70-200L/4.0 IS 100% cropped (upsampling 5D2 file to the same size of 60D file 5184x3456 before cropping to 100%)

ACR 60D + 70-200L/4.0 IS 100% cropped

To my eyes, 5D sample not only is sharper but also resolves more details (such as on bricks) at least with this lens. 5D photo also has better default contrast and color.

As I said this time I shoot from too far away under not very good light condition. I will do again in much closer distance under better light condition that will benefits 60D more.

Thank you - most helpful and I do appreciate you making them available.

Now - to the subject at hand ...

It is clear, even with these images (which were shot wide open with the 60D but stopped down one stop with the 5D) that the 60D resolves more detail.

Some examples where this is easy to see - be sure to view these at full size to see the full effects ...

1. Look at the detail in the hair, look at the eyes, look at the lips, look at the curved 'frame' around him ...

60D on left, 5D on right.

2. In this example it is clear that the 5D was completely unable to resolve the chain-wire mesh in the fence, whereas the 60D has managed to capture it reasonable well (considering how far away this was!) ...

60D on left, 5D on right.

3. In this example the DO NOT ENTER sign in the 60D image is readable or close to it whereas the 5D has just rendered a mess. Also, look at the edge on the sign between the red and white areas. Also look at the edges of the slanted timber support in the top left-hand corner - the 60D has done OK but the 5D has rendered a staircase ...

60D on left, 5D on right.

Those three examples are just a few of the many areas where it is obvious. The more you look, the more you see.

It's a shame the 60D didn't have the benefit of the one-stop closed aperture that the 5D enjoyed for this test, but, in any case, it made no difference.

The 60D has clearly resolved more detail.

I was about to post my conversion of the supplied RAW files and make similar observations, when I saw this post. You actually summarized it pretty well. It is clear that 60D has more detail, even if qianp2k intentionally crippled 60D, when he used 24mm wide open (where 24-105 is weak) and closed aperture for the 5D. But nevertheless he again failed to prove his point. Soon I'll post another comparison to visualize some other aspects.

Intentionally? You use a strong word. The reason I used 24mm on 60D is simply because it starts at 24mm and will guarantee at 24mm while I have to guess on 5D. I truly don't have agenda.

I think we can give you that much - though the fact that you even started this thread would probably indicate that you are trying to prove something perhaps.

And thanks again to qianp2k, to post this comparison proving my point :).

But no thanks . You and schemegg seem having agenda and just want to see you already made in your mind.

My "agenda" is simply to have you realise that your continual claims that the 5D out-resolves every crop camera in the Canon line-up is not  correct. I, along with quite a few others I suspect, would like to see this misinformation stop.

Apart from that, I have nothing against the 5D - it was and, to some extent, still is a great camera.

I cannot analyze schemegg's processed photos after his massage in office until I return home tonight. There are many factors involved, such as shallower DOF in 5D photos (in RAW files, you can see where I focus actually. I focus on the school building not stop sign or whatever else).

OK - perhaps a small grab of each shot from DPP showing the actual focus point?

Thing is though, as I've been saying all along, this type of test leaves too many potential areas for inconsistencies. But if you insist on doing it this way and are going to claim that the actual point of focus might affect the outcome, then you need to show us the actual point of focus.

Nevertheless by default 5D files to my eyes are clearly cleaner with better colors and contrast.

This has nothing to do with the resolving abilities and is therefore off-topic.

I can see at least with 70-200L/4.0 IS, it resolves bricks better (where I focus upon).

No - it doesn't. I can't see anywhere in those images (at least where I have looked) where the 5D has resolved more than the 60D.

In real world photos, you need to apply a stronger NR and CA fix in PP on 60D files that will inevitably have to smear some details to get cleaner photos while you need to do much less on 5D files. So you also need to bear all these in mind.

Yes.

Perhaps, in your next round, as well as the 'better light' tests, you could do some at ISO 3200.

As I said this time I shoot too far away and the weather then was a bit mushy in an overcast day. Once I had chance in much warmer day, I'd do again in much closer distance and may use F5.6 on 60D and F8.0 on 5D.

OK - looking forward to them. The only caveat is that you must make sure you have enough very small detail in the image to begin with. Shooting a subject without fine detail will not allow us to judge the difference. If you intend to shoot from 15 - 20 ft away, then stick the dollar bill in the shot at the point of focus.

And, once again, thanks for the time and effort you've put into these. Aside from my dogged determination to correct the misinformation from you, I really do appreciate the effort you are going to. I hope others do too.

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please don't twist my photos
In reply to schmegg, Mar 21, 2013

Here are CR2 RAW Files

Added two with 70-200L/4.0 IS. They are 100% cropped and processed by ACR with zero sharpening and zero NR (all other default) but cut most parts of sky and lawn to save my DPR gallery space.

There is a glitch at the moment to directly insert gallery photos.

ACR 5D + 70-200L/4.0 IS 100% cropped (upsampling 5D2 file to the same size of 60D file 5184x3456 before cropping to 100%)

ACR 60D + 70-200L/4.0 IS 100% cropped

To my eyes, 5D sample not only is sharper but also resolves more details (such as on bricks) at least with this lens. 5D photo also has better default contrast and color.

As I said this time I shoot from too far away under not very good light condition. I will do again in much closer distance under better light condition that will benefits 60D more.

Thank you - most helpful and I do appreciate you making them available.

I am very busy these days in work and preparing the Cancun trip starts this weekend. So finally have a chance to check these.

Now - to the subject at hand ...

Unbelievable to see you twisted my photos.

It is clear, even with these images (which were shot wide open with the 60D but stopped down one stop with the 5D) that the 60D resolves more detail.

Not true at all provided you don't twist my photos and processed default out of RAW.

Some examples where this is easy to see - be sure to view these at full size to see the full effects ...

1. Look at the detail in the hair, look at the eyes, look at the lips, look at the curved 'frame' around him ...

This is thru your twist and I have no idea how you did that.  No idea why you view at 3x or 4x sizes as simply not we view at 100% cropped, not on prints.

60D on left, 5D on right.

Here is the real one at 100% cropped and I upsampling 5D to match to 60D size at 5184x3456 thru CS6 Bicubic enlargement, default from ACR7, 0 sharpening and 0 NR.

Here are steps that everyone can duplicate:

  • load CR2 files into Photoshop CS6 or CS7
  • Use default setting, move sharpening bars all the way to left (zero sharpening).
  • Move NR bars all the way to left (zero NR);
  • Now in PS window, upsampling 5D files to 60D size (5184x3456) by using Bicubic enlargement (best for enlargement). 
  • Generate JPEG by using +12 max quality

Anyone can download my original RAW and duplicate the default processing that I used. 60D photo left and 5D photo right

2. In this example it is clear that the 5D was completely unable to resolve the chain-wire mesh in the fence, whereas the 60D has managed to capture it reasonable well (considering how far away this was!) ...

Again this is your twisted result. No ideal how you did that.

60D on left, 5D on right.

Here is the real one at 100% cropped and I upsampling 5D to match to 60D size

Wow, what a big difference and the one below is the authentic one from two cameras.

3. In this example the DO NOT ENTER sign in the 60D image is readable or close to it whereas the 5D has just rendered a mess. Also, look at the edge on the sign between the red and white areas. Also look at the edges of the slanted timber support in the top left-hand corner - the 60D has done OK but the 5D has rendered a staircase ...

Again this is your twisted one.

60D on left, 5D on right.

Here is the real one at 100% cropped and I upsampling 5D to match to 60D size.

Those three examples are just a few of the many areas where it is obvious. The more you look, the more you see.

Please don't twist, then you will see exactly as above and everyone would see that.

It's a shame the 60D didn't have the benefit of the one-stop closed aperture that the 5D enjoyed for this test, but, in any case, it made no difference.

Actually F4.0 on 60D = F6.4 on 5D.If I shoot F6.4 on 5D, 5D will lead more

The 60D has clearly resolved more detail.

LOL, check above again if you don't twist. 5D not only is sharper but resolves more fine details (such as the bricks), cleaner with much less fringe.

Since I own both cameras and generated thousand and thousand photos from each of them, I know so clearly 5D takes better portrait and landscape photo while 60D has 'reach' (pixel density) advantage in zoo and safari. They complement each other well.

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MAC
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Re: please don't twist my photos
In reply to qianp2k, Mar 21, 2013

Here are CR2 RAW Files

LOL, check above again if you don't twist. 5D not only is sharper but resolves more fine details (such as the bricks), cleaner with much less fringe.

Since I own both cameras and generated thousand and thousand photos from each of them, I know so clearly 5D takes better portrait and landscape photo while 60D has 'reach' (pixel density) advantage in zoo and safari. They complement each other well.

70-200 F4 IS L isn't exactly known as a landscape lens.

what about the results of your 24-70II 60d combo results above?  And in prior Op's thread?  I had the 60d winning in the center of those

No need to mention or jump to camera alone.  My T4i does better with the 70-200 F2.8L in the center as I've shown.

Have you tried the camera correct and defringe slider tool in LR4?

Take a deep breath and repeat using F5.6 on the crop and f9 on the FF instead, and a highly detailed 3d landscape shot with a clearly controlled focus point and use your best landscape lens -- the 24- 70 F2.8II then we'll see that the 60d wins in landscapes -- by a hair -- when one goes above 20x30 in size -- which I never go that high  .. and neither do you very much  

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qianp2k
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Re: please don't twist my photos
In reply to MAC, Mar 21, 2013

Here are CR2 RAW Files

LOL, check above again if you don't twist. 5D not only is sharper but resolves more fine details (such as the bricks), cleaner with much less fringe.

Since I own both cameras and generated thousand and thousand photos from each of them, I know so clearly 5D takes better portrait and landscape photo while 60D has 'reach' (pixel density) advantage in zoo and safari. They complement each other well.

70-200 F4 IS L isn't exactly known as a landscape lens.

Not sure how it works on APS-c, but widely regarding the excellent lens on FF. You hear lots in Canon forums.

TDP 70-200L/4.0 IS review

I have lots of photos from 70-200L/4.0 IS. These are all from 70-200L/4.0 IS, just grab a few samples in my DPR gallery.

what about the results of your 24-70II 60d combo results above? And in prior Op's thread? I had the 60d winning in the center of those

It's very close. In such almost macro distance, 60D with 24-70L II seems edge out a bit in the center area (that dollar bill is in the most center of entire photo), partially 5D photo display a bit moire so get affected a bit, and partially it may not precisely focus in such distance from 5D AF while 60D thru 10x LV precise MF. Nevertheless there is very small difference. I believe DXOMark P-MPix may derive from average frame MTF data. So far I don't see DXOMark test is wrong.

No need to mention or jump to camera alone. My T4i does better with the 70-200 F2.8L in the center as I've shown.

I don't see much difference in your photos. I'd suggest you to test again from at least 50X focus-length distance or better in outside. I will also test with 70-200L/2.8 IS II.

Have you tried the camera correct and defringe slider tool in LR4?

Yes I know how to remove CA. but just show default RAW-JPEG from ACR.

Take a deep breath and repeat using F5.6 on the crop and f9 on the FF instead, and a highly detailed 3d landscape shot with a clearly controlled focus point and use your best landscape lens -- the 24- 70 F2.8II then we'll see that the 60d wins in landscapes -- by a hair -- when one goes above 20x30 in size -- which I never go that high .. and neither do you very much

I will do again in closer distance with lots of details begin with.

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The 5D lost....
In reply to MAC, Mar 21, 2013

Here are CR2 RAW Files

LOL, check above again if you don't twist. 5D not only is sharper but resolves more fine details (such as the bricks), cleaner with much less fringe.

Since I own both cameras and generated thousand and thousand photos from each of them, I know so clearly 5D takes better portrait and landscape photo while 60D has 'reach' (pixel density) advantage in zoo and safari. They complement each other well.

70-200 F4 IS L isn't exactly known as a landscape lens.

what about the results of your 24-70II 60d combo results above? And in prior Op's thread? I had the 60d winning in the center of those

No need to mention or jump to camera alone. My T4i does better with the 70-200 F2.8L in the center as I've shown.

Have you tried the camera correct and defringe slider tool in LR4?

Take a deep breath and repeat using F5.6 on the crop and f9 on the FF instead, and a highly detailed 3d landscape shot with a clearly controlled focus point and use your best landscape lens -- the 24- 70 F2.8II then we'll see that the 60d wins in landscapes -- by a hair -- when one goes above 20x30 in size -- which I never go that high .. and neither do you very much

I have already worked the files.  Doing crops for 8x10 and 11x14...the cameras are identical.  At 16x24 you can see the 60D pulling ahead.  At 20x30, it was obvious the 60D could produce a more detailed landscape print.

This discussion is truly over.  It's painfully obvious that after over a year of hearing how the 5D was more detailed....even when reduced to a 2000 pixel wide screen view.....we can clearly see from these samples, yours, and the fellow overseas that it was never the case....the 5D lost.

now hopefully we dont need to hear any more exagerations about the magic, classic, 5D.  We can bury it like the original Canon D30 and argue about the 5D3 or something else.

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