Why do I post here? Locked

Started Mar 9, 2013 | Discussions
This thread is locked.
maple
Senior MemberPosts: 2,650
Re: Why do I post here?
In reply to diolus, Mar 13, 2013

Ahh, yes, course, defending the weak. What a kind heart and righteous mind? And what a noble cause.

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Maple

DMillier
Forum ProPosts: 17,468
Re: Why do I post here?
In reply to maple, Mar 13, 2013

I'm disappointed you seem to take the general view that someone who suffers misfortune necessarily brought it upon themself. That's very harsh.

It can be true, but usually isn't.  Historically there is a common habit of blaming the victim and thus escaping responsibility for contributing to the conditions that make misfortune for others unevitable.

You might find this report interesting reading http://www.jointpublicissues.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Truth-And-Lies-Report-smaller.pdf.  I found it so (despite usually having little regard for statements by religious institutions).





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yvind Strm
Veteran MemberPosts: 4,129
Re: sure?
In reply to Usee, Mar 13, 2013

Usee wrote:

Laurence Matson wrote:

Usee wrote:

Laurence Matson wrote:

But, deletions makes it difficult to go back to find evidence of one thing or another. And since so many (Laurence included) treated the man nicely.

But with your crack memory, you should remember all of the stuff deleted, which does not happen anymore. They just lock the threads. Deleting was done in the days of the older persona.

Laurence You are to often wrong...

...rethoric skill and a broad education can't substitute the truth -

neither in Your, nor in another universe.

Where am I wrong there except in my irony. Have they really deleted threads lately? Have they also gone through and parsed stuff out on a general basis? I know of one instance of the latter in recent times. But, of course, I could be wrong there. In any case, there is enough evidence of Ron's past provocation to make the basis of what I stand true, imo.

If one would collect all the provocations You and others have done in the past...

...more than a thousand Ron's were allowed to provoce a bit...

...but for some strange reason, the most annoying posts of the "Evangelists" were deleted,

or are partly written in the subject line, so that one could not quote them properly...

-

...but You know that already, so there is nothing more to explain.

-

The most stupid thing that can happen is a autosuggestiv succesful leader - don't You think?

I have no idea what that means.

sure?

-

You know,

what Richard wrote:

"I don't like to take direct orders from anyone. What I post is what I feel and believe. No politics, no vested interests. Why are you trying to put a barrier in regard to Yvind postings? I'm not under NDA agreement with anybody or anyone."

...could be written by me.

And me too. Why do you think I am pushing back at our friend from Sweden? Because I enjoy his self-righteous preaching?

He was and is IMHO one of the worthiest contenders in this forum - in every regard...

Ulrich, that comment means a lot to me.

I really appreciate that you and Richard take part in this. It is nice to know that I am not alone on Morale High Ground.

But, let us stop now, at least in this thread. I am afraid it is fruitless.

...You should have really taken part in this thread:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/thread/2850570

...it would have been helpful for Sigma, because Sigma could have shown more pleasing examples around camera announcements, than dog pictures.

-

P.S.:

Since when do You have a well working color management - I mean a color management that is not only working within Your own workflow, but also working when exchanging files for common work at different screens and printer?

This was probably the missing base around 3 years ago, don't You think?

I have no idea what you are referring to here.

sure?

I had good color management until about two years ago, when my main monitor began to go south. When it died, I could not afford to replace it and it was too expensive to upgrade my Gretag stuff, as well. So I fiddled along for about 18 months. I now have had a good monitor again since about 2 months. It works well within my system, and I can check it outside my system quickly on another computer for the Internet sRGB stuff.

Nice to hear that it works again, so I hope we can see further improvements according color rendition, as seen with the DP3M.

Is that what you wanted to know in your PMs?

No.

Because You startet to send me PMs...

...my first answer of Your first PM contains nothing more but: "sure?"

...a common way You used to answer in former times, so I thought You would understand.

-

My second PM I sent to You, in response of Your, contains nothing more than:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand,_der_Stier_(Kinderbuch)

-

I don't know how You come to Your conclusions...

...and I don't like conversations per PM behind the scenes - that is politics and something that should be changed, don't You think?

-

So, please don't ask me to respond to Your PMs, especially because You already have my EMail adress since years and we already had some conversations and my last EMail to You with important content kept unanswered - don't expect me to answer unnecessary PMs now.

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Laurence
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A nice "Punkt" on the horizon.

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Kind regards
Øyvind

villebon
Senior MemberPosts: 2,160
You're right about the colors...
In reply to RonJG, Mar 13, 2013

RonJG wrote:

I would seriously like to better understand the Sigma cameras I own, (SD1M, SD15 and DP2M). I have problems with all three of them with weird and inconsistent colours,

Yes, I too have seen how the colors of images taken with the DP2M can be weird at times. But there is hope with the new DP3M:

" The DP3 Merrill's colors are more accurate (by far); the color modes do not work like older models leading to even more room to work your raw files and this..."

http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/cameras/sigma_dp3_review.shtml

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Villebon

SigmaChrome
Veteran MemberPosts: 7,010Gear list
Re: Why do I post here?
In reply to DMillier, Mar 13, 2013

DMillier wrote:

I'm disappointed you seem to take the general view that someone who suffers misfortune necessarily brought it upon themself. That's very harsh.

Who are talking about Dave? And exactly what misfortune? The OP took it upon himself to attack pretty much everyone who supports Sigma - whilst asking for assistance. Literally spitting in their eyes. Several people offered to help but he refused and then heaped on more derision.

Is this the way to get along in any community?

It can be true, but usually isn't. Historically there is a common habit of blaming the victim and thus escaping responsibility for contributing to the conditions that make misfortune for others unevitable.

You might find this report interesting reading http://www.jointpublicissues.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Truth-And-Lies-Report-smaller.pdf. I found it so (despite usually having little regard for statements by religious institutions).





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Richard Franiec
Senior MemberPosts: 2,158Gear list
Re: Why do I post here?
In reply to SigmaChrome, Mar 13, 2013

SigmaChrome wrote:

DMillier wrote:

I'm disappointed you seem to take the general view that someone who suffers misfortune necessarily brought it upon themself. That's very harsh.

Who are talking about Dave? And exactly what misfortune? The OP took it upon himself to attack pretty much everyone who supports Sigma - whilst asking for assistance. Literally spitting in their eyes. Several people offered to help but he refused and then heaped on more derision.

Is this the way to get along in any community?

It can be true, but usually isn't. Historically there is a common habit of blaming the victim and thus escaping responsibility for contributing to the conditions that make misfortune for others unevitable.

You might find this report interesting reading http://www.jointpublicissues.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Truth-And-Lies-Report-smaller.pdf. I found it so (despite usually having little regard for statements by religious institutions).





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Vitee,

Let's take RonJ out of equation. The offensive language he used in some of his posts don't get my approval even if that was an act of desperation on his part. What I posted in this thread was not in RonJ defense directly.

I think that the problem here is deeper and more general. Point is that every one who dare to express his/her opinion going against the popular consensus and mindset of core Sigma users on this forum become the potential target for unprecedented, multiple attacks, mostly by the same posters. This happened in the past to Dave Millier, Raist and others.

What Yvind posted initially, provoked some very emotional reactions. Resulted postings attacked him not just because he defended RonJ but rather because he went against the "establishment" on this forum, trying to uncover tactics and mechanisms ruling within the group. That is my impression and belief.

Richard

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Lin Evans
Forum ProPosts: 15,594Gear list
Re: Why do I post here?
In reply to Richard Franiec, Mar 13, 2013

Richard Franiec wrote:

SigmaChrome wrote:

DMillier wrote:

I'm disappointed you seem to take the general view that someone who suffers misfortune necessarily brought it upon themself. That's very harsh.

Who are talking about Dave? And exactly what misfortune? The OP took it upon himself to attack pretty much everyone who supports Sigma - whilst asking for assistance. Literally spitting in their eyes. Several people offered to help but he refused and then heaped on more derision.

Is this the way to get along in any community?

It can be true, but usually isn't. Historically there is a common habit of blaming the victim and thus escaping responsibility for contributing to the conditions that make misfortune for others unevitable.

You might find this report interesting reading http://www.jointpublicissues.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Truth-And-Lies-Report-smaller.pdf. I found it so (despite usually having little regard for statements by religious institutions).





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Vitee,

Let's take RonJ out of equation. The offensive language he used in some of his posts don't get my approval even if that was an act of desperation on his part. What I posted in this thread was not in RonJ defense directly.

Hi Richard,

What you deem "desperation," others see as "provocation." Even though one might metaphorically saw off the legs of their bed to prevent giving some provocateurs a hiding place, trolls do manage a way to keep coming back - even by changing their "handle" and sometimes disguising their ip address. People are not banned from dPReview multiple times because they are "victims." They are banned because they bait and provoke unnecessarily. Trolls follow a well established pattern here. They never use their real names, they never post their own work, but they often criticize the work of others, they often "claim" to own multiple cameras but refuse to authenticate that and sometimes they are caught in their lies. When they are eventually severely challenged, they feign persecution. If they are not banned, they sometimes slink away to only be reborn under yet another identity.

There is a difference between a "troll" and trolling behavior. Perhaps most of us are, at one time or another, guilty of some type of trolling behavior. But "trolls" do indeed exist here and on many forums.

I think that the problem here is deeper and more general. Point is that every one who dare to express his/her opinion going against the popular consensus and mindset of core Sigma users on this forum become the potential target for unprecedented, multiple attacks, mostly by the same posters. This happened in the past to Dave Millier, Raist and others.

The above is simply not true in my experience on this forum. Anyone can present a dissenting opinion and many have done so very effectively without being "attacked." What appears to often precipitate and exacerbate the situation is when a person continually repeats the same complaint in nearly every post to the point where readers do not even need to read the thread to essentially know what this person has said.

What Yvind posted initially, provoked some very emotional reactions. Resulted postings attacked him not just because he defended RonJ but rather because he went against the "establishment" on this forum, trying to uncover tactics and mechanisms ruling within the group. That is my impression and belief.

I don't see Yvind's behavior exactly as you. I don't believe there are any contrived "tactics" which "rule" within this group. Yvind's post and his somewhat provocative insinuations which I largely ignored, I interpret as messianic in nature. Speaking to a group in a condescending tone is not a way of proper arbitration in my opinion. It may have not been "meant" that way, but that is the way it was perceived, thus recoil from some.

Best regards,

Lin

Richard

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Roland Karlsson
Forum ProPosts: 20,473Gear list
Sad thread really
In reply to RonJG, Mar 13, 2013

Hmmmm .. a rather sad thread. A bunch of grown up (me included unfortunately) that seriously discuss other fellow posters. Who cares if Ron is provocative, and why he is so? Getting all excited for the wrong usage of English words, or for being called sigmafia or troll or whatever.

I am seriously considering getting a DP2M or DP3M. I know, I have done the same before - and never got one. Mainly because of distrust of the cameras. So maybe - maybe not. But ... the Merrill sensor is big enough for being seriously useful. So ...

But, when reading this thread I just get so fed up with it all. Whats the use?

Personally I prefer odd and interesting people with interesting views. If those people take fantastic pictures or are very knowledgeable about technology or just nice guys, I dont care. And there are some of that kind here. Apart from my interest in Foveon technology, thats also why I am here.

The good Öywind did exaggerate, with a rather large factor IMHO. Which is a pity. Because, there is some wisdom there. The exaggerations got some likes and dislikes, just as exaggerations always gets.

Both strong likes and strong dislikes I believe to be destructive in this case. It polarises us and them. Us-and-them is not constructive in a forum IMNSHO.

Its a pity we cant all meet IRL. Physical meetings are often the best cure against alienation.

All this rambling said ... we will see what life has in store for me - a DP2m, DP3M or none?

Or maybe a Pentax 645D?

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diolus
Regular MemberPosts: 439Gear list
Re: Sad thread really
In reply to Roland Karlsson, Mar 13, 2013

Well said.

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yvind Strm
Veteran MemberPosts: 4,129
Re: Sad thread really
In reply to Roland Karlsson, Mar 13, 2013

Hello Roland

Wise words as always.

Roland Karlsson wrote:

Hmmmm .. a rather sad thread. A bunch of grown up (me included unfortunately) that seriously discuss other fellow posters. Who cares if Ron is provocative, and why he is so? Getting all excited for the wrong usage of English words, or for being called sigmafia or troll or whatever.

I am seriously considering getting a DP2M or DP3M. I know, I have done the same before - and never got one. Mainly because of distrust of the cameras. So maybe - maybe not. But ... the Merrill sensor is big enough for being seriously useful. So ...

But, when reading this thread I just get so fed up with it all. Whats the use?

Personally I prefer odd and interesting people with interesting views. If those people take fantastic pictures or are very knowledgeable about technology or just nice guys, I dont care. And there are some of that kind here. Apart from my interest in Foveon technology, thats also why I am here.

The good Öywind did exaggerate, with a rather large factor IMHO. Which is a pity. Because, there is some wisdom there. The exaggerations got some likes and dislikes, just as exaggerations always gets.

As you may recall, I have several times over the years opposed how people are treated if they come here and dare to ask a critical question, or maybe comes off on the wrong foot. I claim that it is rarely this "troll" that starts the attacks. A person may be tolerated for a while, but then the attacks start. As with RonJ. As with Jaelkay. As with numerous others. THEN the accused troll responds, and are attacked by the wolf pack. More responses, "confirming" he was just a troll.

I should have kept it at that, and not written all the things I did. But I think the responses pretty much illustrate what was my main point.

I am sorry I took the bait, and went into that useless discussion. But it made it easier for me to understand why a perceived troll reacts when the attacks turns personal.

Laurence even accused me of being Swedish!

Both strong likes and strong dislikes I believe to be destructive in this case. It polarises us and them. Us-and-them is not constructive in a forum IMNSHO.

Its a pity we cant all meet IRL. Physical meetings are often the best cure against alienation.

All this rambling said ... we will see what life has in store for me - a DP2m, DP3M or none?

Or maybe a Pentax 645D?

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Kind regards
Øyvind

BobNL
Veteran MemberPosts: 4,874Gear list
Re: Sad thread really
In reply to yvind Strm, Mar 13, 2013

The opposite is just as well true. I gave up discussing much here as not agreeing with Sigma being a bad company and delivering a flawed product unleashed the troops of anti-sigma forces. The problem in all of it is not the opinion one has but the way this is discussed. Most often unfortunately without manners.

To be honest I find the whole discussion above simply a big pile of b*llsh*t.

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Richard Franiec
Senior MemberPosts: 2,158Gear list
Re: Why do I post here?
In reply to Lin Evans, Mar 13, 2013

Lin Evans wrote:

Richard Franiec wrote:

SigmaChrome wrote:

DMillier wrote:

I'm disappointed you seem to take the general view that someone who suffers misfortune necessarily brought it upon themself. That's very harsh.

Who are talking about Dave? And exactly what misfortune? The OP took it upon himself to attack pretty much everyone who supports Sigma - whilst asking for assistance. Literally spitting in their eyes. Several people offered to help but he refused and then heaped on more derision.

Is this the way to get along in any community?

It can be true, but usually isn't. Historically there is a common habit of blaming the victim and thus escaping responsibility for contributing to the conditions that make misfortune for others unevitable.

You might find this report interesting reading http://www.jointpublicissues.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Truth-And-Lies-Report-smaller.pdf. I found it so (despite usually having little regard for statements by religious institutions).





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Vitee,

Let's take RonJ out of equation. The offensive language he used in some of his posts don't get my approval even if that was an act of desperation on his part. What I posted in this thread was not in RonJ defense directly.

Hi Richard,

What you deem "desperation," others see as "provocation." Even though one might metaphorically saw off the legs of their bed to prevent giving some provocateurs a hiding place, trolls do manage a way to keep coming back - even by changing their "handle" and sometimes disguising their ip address. People are not banned from dPReview multiple times because they are "victims." They are banned because they bait and provoke unnecessarily. Trolls follow a well established pattern here. They never use their real names, they never post their own work, but they often criticize the work of others, they often "claim" to own multiple cameras but refuse to authenticate that and sometimes they are caught in their lies. When they are eventually severely challenged, they feign persecution. If they are not banned, they sometimes slink away to only be reborn under yet another identity.

There is a difference between a "troll" and trolling behavior. Perhaps most of us are, at one time or another, guilty of some type of trolling behavior. But "trolls" do indeed exist here and on many forums.

I think that the problem here is deeper and more general. Point is that every one who dare to express his/her opinion going against the popular consensus and mindset of core Sigma users on this forum become the potential target for unprecedented, multiple attacks, mostly by the same posters. This happened in the past to Dave Millier, Raist and others.

The above is simply not true in my experience on this forum. Anyone can present a dissenting opinion and many have done so very effectively without being "attacked." What appears to often precipitate and exacerbate the situation is when a person continually repeats the same complaint in nearly every post to the point where readers do not even need to read the thread to essentially know what this person has said.

What Yvind posted initially, provoked some very emotional reactions. Resulted postings attacked him not just because he defended RonJ but rather because he went against the "establishment" on this forum, trying to uncover tactics and mechanisms ruling within the group. That is my impression and belief.

I don't see Yvind's behavior exactly as you. I don't believe there are any contrived "tactics" which "rule" within this group. Yvind's post and his somewhat provocative insinuations which I largely ignored, I interpret as messianic in nature. Speaking to a group in a condescending tone is not a way of proper arbitration in my opinion. It may have not been "meant" that way, but that is the way it was perceived, thus recoil from some.

Best regards,

Lin

Hi Lin,

I very much appreciate your response. Especially the tone of it.

We don't have to agree or disagree on everything, that would be against basic nature of individual mind and perception which all of us were blessed with.

In nature every action provokes reaction for a good reason of balancing things out and return to harmony. In environment we created for our human race not everything is so simple because we tend to "discover" and alter things to better suit our needs and desires. A lot we don't know or is outside of our control. Yet we will always interfere on reflex... especially to another human being. On an end we'll all have to pedal back to basics trying to find the equilibrium in order to save ourselves.

Richard

BTW, first thumb up to your post is mine.

Richard

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Lin Evans
Forum ProPosts: 15,594Gear list
Re: Why do I post here?
In reply to Richard Franiec, Mar 13, 2013

Richard Franiec wrote:

snip

Hi Lin,

I very much appreciate your response. Especially the tone of it.

We don't have to agree or disagree on everything, that would be against basic nature of individual mind and perception which all of us were blessed with.

In nature every action provokes reaction for a good reason of balancing things out and return to harmony. In environment we created for our human race not everything is so simple because we tend to "discover" and alter things to better suit our needs and desires. A lot we don't know or is outside of our control. Yet we will always interfere on reflex... especially to another human being. On an end we'll all have to pedal back to basics trying to find the equilibrium in order to save ourselves.

Richard

BTW, first thumb up to your post is mine.

Richard

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learntomakeslidshows.net

Hi Richard,

Absolutely, agreement or not, there is no reason conversations and discussions can't be completely civil and friendly. I don't lose my temper too often, and I try not to continually impose my opinion about the same subject. I like to express it as rationally as I can and then leave it. I really see no need to repeat the same complaint or glowing admiration in every post. I believe in treating every new person who comes to the forum with the utmost respect and try to answer any questions they might have which I have any insight on, but sometimes I lose my cool as I did with RonJG, not specifically because of his opinion about a simple snapshot, but because of past repeated experiences with both his present and past incarnation here on the forum. I will try to either be civil, or in the case I feel very strongly about someone's behavior, just ignore them in the future. Sometime I think that might be the best way to deal with strong differences of opinion in the first place.

Best regards,

Lin

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Roland Karlsson
Forum ProPosts: 20,473Gear list
Re: Sad thread really
In reply to yvind Strm, Mar 14, 2013

yvind Strm wrote:

I should have kept it at that, and not written all the things I did. But I think the responses pretty much illustrate what was my main point.

Maybe ... or maybe not.

If you excuse me saying so ... it at least did show how easy it is to be a Troll in this forum. There are some here that are easy to get going.

I am sorry I took the bait, and went into that useless discussion. But it made it easier for me to understand why a perceived troll reacts when the attacks turns personal.

This is a difficult balance act.

I saw a Cesar Millan program yesterday. He is that dog whisperer that learns people to handle their dogs. In this show he had one woman that had two small pudles. They were sisters. And they now and then tried to kill each other. Really kill. BTW - I did not see the whole program, so I did not see how it was solved, if it could be solved even.

But - the conclusion Cesar made was that one of the sisters were dominant and really quite nice. It was quite easy to make that dog to behave. The other dog was very insecure and hyper nervous - could not relax. And as soon as something happened, the insecure dog was triggered to attack the other one. And the dominant of course did fight back. She knew she was on top, so would not accept any nonsense.

It was quite hopeless really.

Anyhow ... humans are more complex than dogs. We have many more dimensions in our ambitions and choice of things to defend. It might be football teams or cameras or your skill as photographer or just a place in the local club of people. Lots of things. And intelligent and resourceful people can have lots and lots of such areas.

Two people that both feel secure and relaxed seldom fall in the trap of starting a fight over trivial things. Maybe over important things though.

So if I come here and say "I wonder why Sigma makes so lacking cameras?", then that might trigger some people here, either because those people think that Sigma cameras are very important or because they feel insecure with their choice of Sigma cameras. A third possibility is of course that they have been conditioned that this is the correct behaviour.

Whatever.

The reverse is also possible. Someone comes her and is not happy at all with his camera (right or wrong) and says so. Then, instead of empathy, he gets an advice how to use his camera better. Then that guy gets really p*ssed off - how dare you tell me how to use my camera - I have been photographing for 30 years - I know how to handle cameras! But the advice was maybe sincere. Or sometimes not. But - who cares? Why get so angry?

Laurence even accused me of being Swedish!

Thats horrible How could he?

BTW - do you know that some stupid politicians up here calls Stockholm the capital city of Scandinavia? I mean - sometimes you do everything to show your arrogance.

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jrdigitalart
Senior MemberPosts: 2,984
Re: Sad thread really
In reply to Roland Karlsson, Mar 14, 2013

Roland Karlsson wrote:

BTW - do you know that some stupid politicians up here calls Stockholm the capital city of Scandinavia? I mean - sometimes you do everything to show your arrogance.

Only of Scandinavia? Boy, they must be very insecure people.

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To summarize:
In reply to RonJG, Mar 14, 2013

Old men and the Internet: not a nice sight.

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