Why do I post here? Locked

Started Mar 9, 2013 | Discussions
This thread is locked.
Laurence Matson
Forum ProPosts: 11,095Gear list
Re: Begging the question....
In reply to John Siward, Mar 12, 2013

John Siward wrote:

Laurence Matson wrote:

[snip]

And all of it at such length begs the question: Why not just say: "Chill out, folks!"

[snip]

It may raise the question, but it certainly doesn't beg the question:

http://begthequestion.info/

J.

Thanks. Sort of what I meant, but ill-applied.

-- hide signature --

Laurence
laurence at appledore-farm dot com
"The fact of being reported multiplies the apparent extent of any deplorable development by five- to tenfold" (or any figure the reader would care to supply).
Barbara Tuchman, A Distant Mirror
http://www.pbase.com/lmatson
http://www.pbase.com/sigmadslr
http://www.howardmyerslaw.com

SandyF
Forum ProPosts: 14,875Gear list
Re: A Few Quotes....
In reply to yvind Strm, Mar 12, 2013

yvind Strm wrote:

Lin, I do agree that many of this statements are way over the line, and as such I do not defend them. But you can't take them out of context like that. Where are the insults that led to those comments? Maybe not directly, but through repeated attacks.

RonJs comments were not like that in the beginning. Neither was any other posters that came here first time.

Often a poster comes here, and may have an unfortunate wording. And this is where it goes wrong - if there is any chance that it is a troll, he is jumped at. Especially if he has a low post count. RonJ is not the first this has happened for.

I think the first thread RonJ started is worth taking a look at. http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/post/50529614

that may have been his first thread under that username, but he himself posted that he previously posted under a different name. Plus major portions of several threads have been deleted, including some early nasty posts by "RonJG" but including also the one where he made that statement. You'll just have to believe me that posts have been deleted and the thread locked.

You've missed a lot, Yvind.
Best regards, Sandy
http://www.pbase.com/sandyfleischman (archival)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sandyfleischmann (current)




 SandyF's gear list:SandyF's gear list
Sigma DP2 Sigma DP1 Sigma DP2 Merrill Canon EOS 5D Mark II Sigma SD9 +5 more
DMillier
Forum ProPosts: 17,466
Re: About a C
In reply to Richard Franiec, Mar 12, 2013

There are some perks for being an insider that I know of but I'll keep quiet about the details as it's unofficial information.

-- hide signature --
DMillier
Forum ProPosts: 17,466
Re: My approach: try to be proactive in responding
In reply to docmaas, Mar 12, 2013

Thoughtful response for life in general but maybe too general for much of what goes on around here?

There appear to be a small group of people here who are obsessed with the concept that Sigma/Foveon is somehow under threat from an army of negative publicity generated by trolls and that Sigma/Foveon must be defended to the death.

They interpret every comment through a filter so strong that it is not just vicious unwarranted attacks on the brand that provoke the defence mechanism, but even the mildest of neutral comment (which gets described as "damning with faint praise" and it seen as equally negative as a direct attack).

When the defenders think they have detected an invasion, they have a tendency to gather in a wolf pack and engage in mass personal insults as a tactic.  This often provokes a defensive reaction and inevitably a long drawn out war.  The one thing that gets lost in all of this is any honest, reasoned examination of any issue or potential problem.

The other thing that the pack are fond of doing is hyperbole: exaggerating the benefits of Foveon technology beyond the reasonable.  This behaviour tends to bring responses from interested middlegrounders who in turn get turned into "the enemy" by the defensive filter.

On the flip side, it is kind of understandable how this defensive filter evolved. Sigma has made a number of design and pricing and other decisions that keeps their products very in a niche. Those who like the products are OK with this whilst others more in the mainstream find it perplexing.  This has caused a lot of commentary over the years and I understand how some of the long term fans who have heard it all before can get tired of it all.

There are also (of course) a small number of genuine trolls who appear solely to try and get a rise out of the locals (as trolls by definition always do).

It's kind of important to recognise the difference between the occasional passing genuine troll and someone who just doesn't share your passionate enthusiasm.

Difficult, I recognise.

-- hide signature --
Usee
Senior MemberPosts: 1,517Gear list
Re: About fanboys
In reply to yvind Strm, Mar 12, 2013

yvind Strm wrote:

Uli, thank you so much

-- hide signature --

Kind regards
Øyvind

You are welcome!

Maybe You like some spring time flowers around the shadow of a tree:

...in the garden...

Uli

-- hide signature --

Envy is the highest form of recognition.
Stop to run, start to think.
Think twice - that doubles the fun!
Your world is as big, as Your mind.
Avoid to have only one point of view!
Uli

DMillier
Forum ProPosts: 17,466
Re: A Few Quotes....
In reply to SandyF, Mar 12, 2013

As I said to Ron, he hasn't helped himself by setting any kind of good behaviour example but... this is true of many of us and forum life is a culture of its own.

I think the key thing is not to look at the name of the poster and assume the worst but to look at what they actually post and treat it on its merits. If Ron (say) makes an obnoxious post full of personal attacks, well, no one should be surprised at the responses. But if Ron makes a perfectly reasonable comment (even if an unpopular one) he should be entitled to a reasoned response.

As should anyone.

One of the problems we see around here too often is instead of carefully reading a post, people look at the poster's name and just assume a meaning and intent based on their perception of that poster's supposed character and motivations. Stereotyping in other words.  Trawling posting history to gather "conformation" of one's perceptions is a bit sad, really.

We should all try and do better at responding to the argument rather than the person. Me included.

-- hide signature --
Usee
Senior MemberPosts: 1,517Gear list
Re: About a C
In reply to Laurence Matson, Mar 12, 2013

Laurence Matson wrote:

With all due respect, get serious. Were I a beta tester, I would be operating under an NDA, and I am sure you understand that one of the clauses in that would be non-disclosure terms. The same would apply for anyone, who was one in the past, since non-disclosure provisions usually extend beyond the end of any agreement. Nevertheless, I will interject below some things that I know, since they have nothing to do with an NDA, even if I were under one.

Richard Franiec wrote:

Laurence Matson wrote:

Øyvind,

... and then have the gall to denigrate other things - meetings, trade shows, shoots, beta testing, personal contacts, dinners, tours - for what appears to be simple jealousy reasons, thereby ignoring the fact that many people here have dedicated considerable resources in terms of time and money to making this effort on the part of Foveon and Sigma somewhat successful. And for the most part, those people doing this, did not do it to make you or anyone else jealous (as you clearly are); amazing as the concept may seem to you, Sigma and Foveon actually reach out to users they can identify as serious people, who might have something important for them to hear.

Laurence
laurence at appledore-farm dot com
"The fact of being reported multiplies the apparent extent of any deplorable development by five- to tenfold" (or any figure the reader would care to supply).
Barbara Tuchman, A Distant Mirror
http://www.pbase.com/lmatson
http://www.pbase.com/sigmadslr
http://www.howardmyerslaw.com

Interesting,

Until now beta testing for Sigma with all perks (listed or not) were taboo on this forum.

Your confession begs for answers:

I made no confession. I just find it beyond belief that people are denigrated because someone has a petty issue with jealousy. I too have been at some of those dinners - one of the alleged perks. And so was absolutely every other user present at that show or event, without exception. And thanks were expressed by Sigma management to the Sigma users, no matter who they were and whether they used cameras or lenses or just a flash.

As Sandy mentioned, the so-called shoots are open to everyone, even if they do not use a Sigma camera. And these have taken place in many parts of the world, including Japan, Germany, France, UK, USA, and Switzerland. "Where two or three gather together . . . " is what the Yokefellows say. It is about fellowship and certainly not elitism.

I even participated in one in my home town hosted by Seng, because this is where Dick Merrill came from (and whose grave I visit more often than I can say; so am I also sliming up to Dick for perks?) And of course, I invited those who felt like it to come to the house, and they did.

1. Who are the beta testers for Sigma and participate in this forum?

I do not know.

2. What are the criteria to become beta tester for Sigma?

I have no idea.

3. How beta testers are compensated by Sigma?

I do not know.

4. List of suggestions to Sigma leading to improvement of product.

I know of several, but I will not list them specifically. Anyone, who has read my posts for any length of time, knows what they were.

5. Are the "serious" users opinions more important than average user observations and wishes?

Yes, to the extent that they are willing to give feedback freely and in a way that engineers can benefit from it. And I said nothing about "opinions;" there are more than enough of that to go around here. I am talking about having something important - of a contributory nature - to say.

6. Was SD1 initial price influenced by beta testers opinions?

You must be joking. You honestly think that if I knew anything I would discuss this on an open forum where there is at least a matching amount of indiscretion as there is discretion running rampant. The initial price of the SD1 was made public at photokina 2010. Other things happened at the launch. There has been a lot of speculation about this; it is up to senior management at Sigma to announce what they think is pertinent.

These are my initial questions. I guess that it wiill be more coming.

Fine.

-- hide signature --

Laurence
laurence at appledore-farm dot com
"The fact of being reported multiplies the apparent extent of any deplorable development by five- to tenfold" (or any figure the reader would care to supply).
Barbara Tuchman, A Distant Mirror
http://www.pbase.com/lmatson
http://www.pbase.com/sigmadslr
http://www.howardmyerslaw.com

Laurence,

did something change at Sigma - recently?

...otherwise, I would be really surprised about Your answers.

-

What do You think,

was it a change into the right direction or is it just masks and mirrors - as usual?



...have a break

-

Ulrich

-- hide signature --

Envy is the highest form of recognition.
Stop to run, start to think.
Think twice - that doubles the fun!
Your world is as big, as Your mind.
Avoid to have only one point of view!
Uli

Richard Franiec
Senior MemberPosts: 2,158Gear list
Re: Laurence,
In reply to Laurence Matson, Mar 12, 2013

Laurence Matson wrote:

With all due respect, get serious. Were I a beta tester, I would be operating under an NDA, and I am sure you understand that one of the clauses in that would be non-disclosure terms. The same would apply for anyone, who was one in the past, since non-disclosure provisions usually extend beyond the end of any agreement. Nevertheless, I will interject below some things that I know, since they have nothing to do with an NDA, even if I were under one.

Richard Franiec wrote:

Laurence Matson wrote:

Øyvind,

... and then have the gall to denigrate other things - meetings, trade shows, shoots, beta testing, personal contacts, dinners, tours - for what appears to be simple jealousy reasons, thereby ignoring the fact that many people here have dedicated considerable resources in terms of time and money to making this effort on the part of Foveon and Sigma somewhat successful. And for the most part, those people doing this, did not do it to make you or anyone else jealous (as you clearly are); amazing as the concept may seem to you, Sigma and Foveon actually reach out to users they can identify as serious people, who might have something important for them to hear.

Laurence
laurence at appledore-farm dot com
"The fact of being reported multiplies the apparent extent of any deplorable development by five- to tenfold" (or any figure the reader would care to supply).
Barbara Tuchman, A Distant Mirror
http://www.pbase.com/lmatson
http://www.pbase.com/sigmadslr
http://www.howardmyerslaw.com

Interesting,

Until now beta testing for Sigma with all perks (listed or not) were taboo on this forum.

Your confession begs for answers:

I made no confession. I just find it beyond belief that people are denigrated because someone has a petty issue with jealousy. I too have been at some of those dinners - one of the alleged perks. And so was absolutely every other user present at that show or event, without exception. And thanks were expressed by Sigma management to the Sigma users, no matter who they were and whether they used cameras or lenses or just a flash.

As Sandy mentioned, the so-called shoots are open to everyone, even if they do not use a Sigma camera. And these have taken place in many parts of the world, including Japan, Germany, France, UK, USA, and Switzerland. "Where two or three gather together . . . " is what the Yokefellows say. It is about fellowship and certainly not elitism.

I even participated in one in my home town hosted by Seng, because this is where Dick Merrill came from (and whose grave I visit more often than I can say; so am I also sliming up to Dick for perks?) And of course, I invited those who felt like it to come to the house, and they did.

1. Who are the beta testers for Sigma and participate in this forum?

I do not know.

2. What are the criteria to become beta tester for Sigma?

I have no idea.

3. How beta testers are compensated by Sigma?

I do not know.

4. List of suggestions to Sigma leading to improvement of product.

I know of several, but I will not list them specifically. Anyone, who has read my posts for any length of time, knows what they were.

5. Are the "serious" users opinions more important than average user observations and wishes?

Yes, to the extent that they are willing to give feedback freely and in a way that engineers can benefit from it. And I said nothing about "opinions;" there are more than enough of that to go around here. I am talking about having something important - of a contributory nature - to say.

6. Was SD1 initial price influenced by beta testers opinions?

You must be joking. You honestly think that if I knew anything I would discuss this on an open forum where there is at least a matching amount of indiscretion as there is discretion running rampant. The initial price of the SD1 was made public at photokina 2010. Other things happened at the launch. There has been a lot of speculation about this; it is up to senior management at Sigma to announce what they think is pertinent.

These are my initial questions. I guess that it wiill be more coming.

Fine.

-- hide signature --

Laurence
laurence at appledore-farm dot com
"The fact of being reported multiplies the apparent extent of any deplorable development by five- to tenfold" (or any figure the reader would care to supply).
Barbara Tuchman, A Distant Mirror
http://www.pbase.com/lmatson
http://www.pbase.com/sigmadslr
http://www.howardmyerslaw.com

Laurence,

I got nothing against beta testers. In fact, I do believe that they have crucial role in discovering faults and inadequacies in any new product or prototype. There is nothing to be ashamed of to be in the position to use one's expertise in truthful evaluation of given product and pointing out areas requiring improvements. Sometimes the improvements are not possible under current state of affairs and this is understandable but denial or discounting the fault by tester is not.

What I find disturbing is the presence of the beta tester or insider on the public forum, not per se but acting in the role of manufacturer's representative, or if you like, compensated or not shill. Forcing (repeatedly) one sided views with more or less diplomatic approach including attacks on people with different perspective gives away their identity and agenda. Who benefits from such behavior? The community? Sigma? I don't believe that lashing others to submission is the way of work acceptable for great educators, which most familiar with the subject should be. I also don't believe that untruth or partial truth becomes the truth when repeated a thousand times. Maybe this approach works for some but majority of regulars on many forums (especially this one) are independent, open minded thinkers who can read between the lines or like you would phrase, separate chaff from grain.

I don't like terms like Sigmafia, or fanboy, plentiful on this forum and I never use them. Since you have mentioned word "Evangelist" coined by the Sigma's founder for the close circle of followers, I think that this term is more adequate, palatable and also revealing. We'll see if it sticks:-D

On end of this musing I wish for more civility and respect for others and their opinions if that's not too much to ask.

Sincerely

Richard

 Richard Franiec's gear list:Richard Franiec's gear list
Sigma DP2 Merrill Canon EOS-1D Mark IV Canon EOS-1D X Canon EOS M Panasonic Lumix DMC-GM1 +5 more
Usee
Senior MemberPosts: 1,517Gear list
Re: Laurence,
In reply to Richard Franiec, Mar 12, 2013

Richard Franiec wrote:

Laurence Matson wrote:

With all due respect, get serious. Were I a beta tester, I would be operating under an NDA, and I am sure you understand that one of the clauses in that would be non-disclosure terms. The same would apply for anyone, who was one in the past, since non-disclosure provisions usually extend beyond the end of any agreement. Nevertheless, I will interject below some things that I know, since they have nothing to do with an NDA, even if I were under one.

Richard Franiec wrote:

Laurence Matson wrote:

Øyvind,

... and then have the gall to denigrate other things - meetings, trade shows, shoots, beta testing, personal contacts, dinners, tours - for what appears to be simple jealousy reasons, thereby ignoring the fact that many people here have dedicated considerable resources in terms of time and money to making this effort on the part of Foveon and Sigma somewhat successful. And for the most part, those people doing this, did not do it to make you or anyone else jealous (as you clearly are); amazing as the concept may seem to you, Sigma and Foveon actually reach out to users they can identify as serious people, who might have something important for them to hear.

Laurence
laurence at appledore-farm dot com
"The fact of being reported multiplies the apparent extent of any deplorable development by five- to tenfold" (or any figure the reader would care to supply).
Barbara Tuchman, A Distant Mirror
http://www.pbase.com/lmatson
http://www.pbase.com/sigmadslr
http://www.howardmyerslaw.com

Interesting,

Until now beta testing for Sigma with all perks (listed or not) were taboo on this forum.

Your confession begs for answers:

I made no confession. I just find it beyond belief that people are denigrated because someone has a petty issue with jealousy. I too have been at some of those dinners - one of the alleged perks. And so was absolutely every other user present at that show or event, without exception. And thanks were expressed by Sigma management to the Sigma users, no matter who they were and whether they used cameras or lenses or just a flash.

As Sandy mentioned, the so-called shoots are open to everyone, even if they do not use a Sigma camera. And these have taken place in many parts of the world, including Japan, Germany, France, UK, USA, and Switzerland. "Where two or three gather together . . . " is what the Yokefellows say. It is about fellowship and certainly not elitism.

I even participated in one in my home town hosted by Seng, because this is where Dick Merrill came from (and whose grave I visit more often than I can say; so am I also sliming up to Dick for perks?) And of course, I invited those who felt like it to come to the house, and they did.

1. Who are the beta testers for Sigma and participate in this forum?

I do not know.

2. What are the criteria to become beta tester for Sigma?

I have no idea.

3. How beta testers are compensated by Sigma?

I do not know.

4. List of suggestions to Sigma leading to improvement of product.

I know of several, but I will not list them specifically. Anyone, who has read my posts for any length of time, knows what they were.

5. Are the "serious" users opinions more important than average user observations and wishes?

Yes, to the extent that they are willing to give feedback freely and in a way that engineers can benefit from it. And I said nothing about "opinions;" there are more than enough of that to go around here. I am talking about having something important - of a contributory nature - to say.

6. Was SD1 initial price influenced by beta testers opinions?

You must be joking. You honestly think that if I knew anything I would discuss this on an open forum where there is at least a matching amount of indiscretion as there is discretion running rampant. The initial price of the SD1 was made public at photokina 2010. Other things happened at the launch. There has been a lot of speculation about this; it is up to senior management at Sigma to announce what they think is pertinent.

These are my initial questions. I guess that it wiill be more coming.

Fine.

-- hide signature --

Laurence
laurence at appledore-farm dot com
"The fact of being reported multiplies the apparent extent of any deplorable development by five- to tenfold" (or any figure the reader would care to supply).
Barbara Tuchman, A Distant Mirror
http://www.pbase.com/lmatson
http://www.pbase.com/sigmadslr
http://www.howardmyerslaw.com

Laurence,

I got nothing against beta testers. In fact, I do believe that they have crucial role in discovering faults and inadequacies in any new product or prototype. There is nothing to be ashamed of to be in the position to use one's expertise in truthful evaluation of given product and pointing out areas requiring improvements. Sometimes the improvements are not possible under current state of affairs and this is understandable but denial or discounting the fault by tester is not.

What I find disturbing is the presence of the beta tester or insider on the public forum, not per se but acting in the role of manufacturer's representative, or if you like, compensated or not shill. Forcing (repeatedly) one sided views with more or less diplomatic approach including attacks on people with different perspective gives away their identity and agenda. Who benefits from such behavior? The community? Sigma? I don't believe that lashing others to submission is the way of work acceptable for great educators, which most familiar with the subject should be. I also don't believe that untruth or partial truth becomes the truth when repeated a thousand times. Maybe this approach works for some but majority of regulars on many forums (especially this one) are independent, open minded thinkers who can read between the lines or like you would phrase, separate chaff from grain.

I don't like terms like Sigmafia, or fanboy, plentiful on this forum and I never use them. Since you have mentioned word "Evangelist" coined by the Sigma's founder for the close circle of followers, I think that this term is more adequate, palatable and also revealing. We'll see if it sticks:-D

On end of this musing I wish for more civility and respect for others and their opinions if that's not too much to ask.

Sincerely

Richard

Thank You Richard,

your reply is probably more understandable (not only for Laurence) than mine,

so I don't need to give him a further answer to the message he sent to me, in this regard.

A forum is for open talk, so I prefer to write the answers here and not unseen for the community in personal messages. I think we made a TRUE point...

...no more masks and mirrors! Punkt.

Uli

-- hide signature --

Envy is the highest form of recognition.
Stop to run, start to think.
Think twice - that doubles the fun!
Your world is as big, as Your mind.
Avoid to have only one point of view!
Uli

Richard Franiec
Senior MemberPosts: 2,158Gear list
Re: About a C
In reply to HBowman, Mar 12, 2013

HBowman wrote:

Richard Franiec wrote:

Laurence Matson wrote:

Øyvind,

... and then have the gall to denigrate other things - meetings, trade shows, shoots, beta testing, personal contacts, dinners, tours - for what appears to be simple jealousy reasons, thereby ignoring the fact that many people here have dedicated considerable resources in terms of time and money to making this effort on the part of Foveon and Sigma somewhat successful. And for the most part, those people doing this, did not do it to make you or anyone else jealous (as you clearly are); amazing as the concept may seem to you, Sigma and Foveon actually reach out to users they can identify as serious people, who might have something important for them to hear.

Laurence
laurence at appledore-farm dot com
"The fact of being reported multiplies the apparent extent of any deplorable development by five- to tenfold" (or any figure the reader would care to supply).
Barbara Tuchman, A Distant Mirror
http://www.pbase.com/lmatson
http://www.pbase.com/sigmadslr
http://www.howardmyerslaw.com

Interesting,

Until now beta testing for Sigma with all perks (listed or not) were taboo on this forum.

Your confession begs for answers:

1. Who are the beta testers for Sigma and participate in this forum?

2. What are the criteria to become beta tester for Sigma?

3. How beta testers are compensated by Sigma?

4. List of suggestions to Sigma leading to improvement of product.

5. Are the "serious" users opinions more important than average user observations and wishes?

6. Was SD1 initial price influenced by beta testers opinions?

These are my initial questions. I guess that it wiill be more coming.

Cheers

Richard

Dear Richard ...

What Laurence said in your quote is right. This rely on some simple things such as altruism and abnegation, some principles who might be ignored by some over here.

Some may say that promoting SIGMA for free is stupid but ... SIGMA is not Nikon; SIGMA is SIGMA, Foveon is Foveon and the common story is unique. Some here, as well as Laurence or Carl Ryterfalk and some others, are passionate photographers who like sharing a technology they love.

First, you will not know how to be a beta testers nor how they are compensated or whatever. Forget about it.

Myself almost scarifiedtwo full years promoting and defending SIGMA DSLR and Lenses on French forums. Day after day, even holidays. It was in my blood. I get bashed, insulted, glorified ... this is a hard job. That ended in what ?? SIGMA France did not give a f$$k about what I did lol. (SIGMA France is stuck in time and Space, they are TOTALLY out of the real SIGMA spirit and traditions, compared to other country such as Germany or SIGMA UK, USA ...).

Being fully dedicated and successful in the use of a material and/or a brand drive you in the camp of "serious" users. And yes, a serious/professional (successful) user should be listened. So, to answer 5 I say yes. I say yes 100 times. Forums need more discipline and happy you I'm not moderator here ... Some heads might have been chopped long time ago ...

Some may hate the fact that there is some sort of leaders, even tough those leaders do not like this label. But, every community need one or more leaders and those leaders should be respected and defended.

So what ?? ppl contest the leaders, leaders fight each others ?? are we STUPID Monkeys ??

I don't think so.

Anyway, if I give some times of my life for SIGMA/Foveon, this is in the memory of Richard Merrill genius and the traditional honour and family spirit droved by SIGMA corporation Japan.

I do not do that to seek money or to grab recognition. I do that because when I think about it every morning, I feel well and sunny in my head, I feel touched by Richard's story. There is some dose of spirituality in this, yes. I'm French, after all.

On this forum we should be over material and brain fight ... we should be in the essence of photography and simplicity. Life is short, that coming from probably one of the youngest contributor of this little community.

"Dream on Hulyss !"

-- hide signature --

Hello Hulyss,

First, congratulations on the LuLa publication. I like your genuine excitement regarding DP3M and the pictures to prove the point.

The reason for addressing my questions for Laurence was simple: The point of the whole exercise was that I believe that many in this forum are asking themselves the same questions. I did not expected the answers or putting that differently, I expected the answers as he posted.

Maybe my direct response to Laurence's post is covering the rest of my intentions if you find the time to read it: http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/post/51023608

One thing I have to say is that I really respect and enjoy your simple and appealing insight.

And I'm glad that my head on the forum is safe, at least for now:-D

BTW, I have a cousin in LeHavre (Normandie). I have not found him yet as emotional as typical Frenchman (you) could be. Hope he'll change LOL.

Keep up the good work

Richard

 Richard Franiec's gear list:Richard Franiec's gear list
Sigma DP2 Merrill Canon EOS-1D Mark IV Canon EOS-1D X Canon EOS M Panasonic Lumix DMC-GM1 +5 more
JLK
JLK
Veteran MemberPosts: 4,340
Re: My approach: try to be proactive in responding
In reply to DMillier, Mar 12, 2013

DMillier wrote:

Thoughtful response for life in general but maybe too general for much of what goes on around here?

There appear to be a small group of people here who are obsessed with the concept that Sigma/Foveon is somehow under threat from an army of negative publicity generated by trolls and that Sigma/Foveon must be defended to the death.

Well, I'm not sure about that. I think it's been more of a 'nuturing' process. There's no doubt that there was trolling in the early days. And that it's still going on today. Welcome to the internet...

They interpret every comment through a filter so strong that it is not just vicious unwarranted attacks on the brand that provoke the defence mechanism, but even the mildest of neutral comment (which gets described as "damning with faint praise" and it seen as equally negative as a direct attack).

I stay off the forum enough so I don't know if recent behavior has changed for the worse, but I don't by this...  Ron is having problems with his SD15? Yup---it easily gets noisy in the shadows if not appropriately exposed, and it clips highlight like no other Foveon imager I've used (at least my copy does). Which means it's much harder to nail exposures in high contrast situations than the SD10 or SD14 (and I believe the DP2M, from my brief time with that). But the name-calling and other carping isn't helping him get answers.

When the defenders think they have detected an invasion, they have a tendency to gather in a wolf pack and engage in mass personal insults as a tactic. This often provokes a defensive reaction and inevitably a long drawn out war. The one thing that gets lost in all of this is any honest, reasoned examination of any issue or potential problem.

The other thing that the pack are fond of doing is hyperbole: exaggerating the benefits of Foveon technology beyond the reasonable. This behaviour tends to bring responses from interested middlegrounders who in turn get turned into "the enemy" by the defensive filter.

Some people call it exaggeration. But other people claim to not see the benefits. It's usually better if you've actually experienced it, instead of basing the argument on theoretical grounds. Do the experiment...

On the flip side, it is kind of understandable how this defensive filter evolved. Sigma has made a number of design and pricing and other decisions that keeps their products very in a niche. Those who like the products are OK with this whilst others more in the mainstream find it perplexing. This has caused a lot of commentary over the years and I understand how some of the long term fans who have heard it all before can get tired of it all.

There are also (of course) a small number of genuine trolls who appear solely to try and get a rise out of the locals (as trolls by definition always do).

It's kind of important to recognise the difference between the occasional passing genuine troll and someone who just doesn't share your passionate enthusiasm.

Difficult, I recognise.

-- hide signature --

I used to come here to help and share stuff, but don't so much anymore. It's not people like Laurence, Kendall, Lin etc that's kept me away. I find it more productive to go out and take photos. As an aside, the SUG shoots are a riot, and well worth attending.

-- hide signature --

Jim

Laurence Matson
Forum ProPosts: 11,095Gear list
Imaginings
In reply to Richard Franiec, Mar 12, 2013

Richard Franiec wrote:

Laurence,

I got nothing against beta testers. In fact, I do believe that they have crucial role in discovering faults and inadequacies in any new product or prototype. There is nothing to be ashamed of to be in the position to use one's expertise in truthful evaluation of given product and pointing out areas requiring improvements. Sometimes the improvements are not possible under current state of affairs and this is understandable but denial or discounting the fault by tester is not.

Good.

What I find disturbing is the presence of the beta tester or insider on the public forum, not per se but acting in the role of manufacturer's representative, or if you like, compensated or not shill. Forcing (repeatedly) one sided views with more or less diplomatic approach including attacks on people with different perspective gives away their identity and agenda. Who benefits from such behavior? The community? Sigma? I don't believe that lashing others to submission is the way of work acceptable for great educators, which most familiar with the subject should be. I also don't believe that untruth or partial truth becomes the truth when repeated a thousand times. Maybe this approach works for some but majority of regulars on many forums (especially this one) are independent, open minded thinkers who can read between the lines or like you would phrase, separate chaff from grain.

Of the people, who I have known working more closely with Sigma or Foveon by invitation, I do not know of one person, who fits the mold you have defined. At least not consistently. Not one. I believe you are projecting a model on to people that fits some perception you have of how. More often than not, the people with an agenda are those, who are disappointed, such as Ron or Øyvind, both of whom have ranted here about their SD14s. And when they got a push back in the form of a solution, they regarded it as some aggressive attack.

If you read Hulyss's post without your filter above, I think you have a clearer portrait of what passionate people do. And were you as careful a reader over the long term as you expect others to be in public with their language, you would have discovered that omission is an art form of discretion and solution-finding is motivation to speak.

Look at the cräp Kendall has to put up with by constantly telling people that there is a solution to the battery problem with the DPxM: turn off your camera between shots. He is not avoiding the problem; he is providing a solution.

For instance, the SD9 was launched 10 years ago with a funny haloing approach to solving blown highlights. Someone at Foveon probably thought this hack would fly. It was mentioned by Phil almost immediately. Since Foveon contacted some people here about possible solutions - I was not part of that - the level of criticism dropped right away while something was worked out. I cannot recall any postings about a "solution is on its way" and I have been banned from researching past postings by our new moral leader Øyvind, you will have to take it on faith that this might have happened and most certainly has at other times - see recent postings on Adobe working on Sigma cameras for ACR.

I don't like terms like Sigmafia, or fanboy, plentiful on this forum and I never use them. Since you have mentioned word "Evangelist" coined by the Sigma's founder for the close circle of followers, I think that this term is more adequate, palatable and also revealing. We'll see if it sticks:-D

He did not use the term for any "close circle." He used it with reference to every Sigma user out there. And if you were to read what Kazuto has written and said in public, you would understand that he thinks the same way.

On end of this musing I wish for more civility and respect for others and their opinions if that's not too much to ask.

No problem there. Just keep your imagination under control and do not project too much on to me or others. Taking someone at face value, i.e. reading carefully what they say at different levels, is equally as important. And don't come back to me about misreading Øyvind; I have read enough of his postings over the years. And you forget, perhaps, that my expertise is not in cameras by a long shot; it is in language and reading carefully what someone has written in one language to translate it into another.

-- hide signature --

Laurence
laurence at appledore-farm dot com
"The fact of being reported multiplies the apparent extent of any deplorable development by five- to tenfold" (or any figure the reader would care to supply).
Barbara Tuchman, A Distant Mirror
http://www.pbase.com/lmatson
http://www.pbase.com/sigmadslr
http://www.howardmyerslaw.com

yvind Strm
Veteran MemberPosts: 4,129
Re: How stupid do you think
In reply to mrkr, Mar 12, 2013

mrkr wrote:

the people on this forum are?

Not sure what you mean. But it must have something to do with the perception of RonJs first post, since you qoute it. (Btw, you forgot to quote whole of my post, not even indicating it was more.)

You think people would be stupid if they buy into my reasoning? That I suggest we respond civil? I can't speak for those not responding, but I can count. 9 shared your view. 14 shared my view. Are those 14 the stupid ones?

So you consider: Lin Evans, DaSigmaGuy, D Cox, Gary Mercer, SigmaChrome, Dan Daniel, Johan Borg, Atom14, Idiliic, Mike earussi, Ceistinne, Laurence Matson ( a very, very good answer), dMillier, mroy, Charles2 and Gunther Borgermeister stupid?

Wow!

Or is the stupid ones the 9 who were uncivil? Or those not doing either?

For the record, let me qoute what you left out:

"In that specific thread, 9 persons attacked (or voiced support for the attackers). If those 9 had managed to shut up, and let the 14 people that DID try to help (or acknowledge the helping attempt) do their thing, the thread would be an educational one to read for newcomers, and RonJs impression, and subsequent reactions would been different.

To make the picture somewhat more complete, 2 of the 9 later appologized for the initial assumption of him being a troll.

I must also stress that in that particular thread, you (Lin) did try to help, and so did DaSigmaGuy, D Cox, Gary Mercer, SigmaChrome, Dan Daniel, Johan Borg, Atom14, Idiliic, Mike earussi, Ceistinne, Laurence Matson ( a very, very good answer), dMillier, mroy, Charles2 and Gunther Borgermeister. (Hope I didn't leave out any helpful contributor)

Those posters (including yours) is excellent examples of how we SHOULD respond to anyone, regardless of how they phrase their claims or questions."  (the last were for Lin Evans)

yvind Strm wrote:

Lin, I do agree that many of this statements are way over the line, and as such I do not defend them. But you can't take them out of context like that. Where are the insults that led to those comments? Maybe not directly, but through repeated attacks.

RonJs comments were not like that in the beginning. Neither was any other posters that came here first time.

Often a poster comes here, and may have an unfortunate wording. And this is where it goes wrong - if there is any chance that it is a troll, he is jumped at. Especially if he has a low post count. RonJ is not the first this has happened for.

I think the first thread RonJ started is worth taking a look at. http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/post/50529614

I find it rather typical of what happens when someone comes to the forum with a statement or question, that may or may not be a troll post.

Luckily, in that thread, it is a majority of helpful people, that don’t jump at him. But several does, with support from others.

This is the general rule – the new posters are attacked first, and not only by one. In some instances, the OP has managed to remain calm, but often the attacks results in a angered person, which responds in kind. And then the spiral starts. And in the end "proves" that he was just another "troll". I would say "created" by the attackers. Almost always. Sadly, this seems like standard procedure.

The first post of that guy is actually worth a look at:

'Have I been ripped off?

Just bought an SD1M and am disappointed with image size.

I was informed that the image size from the SD1M was 46mp. That cannot be because when I take a jpg and display it to fill my 27" screen, it is at 77% enlargment

Nikon D800 at full screen is only 34% enlargement.

I also noticed the Sigma images are only 180 dpi whereas the Nikon ones are 300 dpi.

Am I doing something wrong here or is the advertising duff?'

And you take him serious?

3 months ago

Please continue with your ill-advised posts - the more the merrier.

-- hide signature --

Kind regards
Øyvind

yvind Strm
Veteran MemberPosts: 4,129
Re: A Few Quotes....
In reply to SandyF, Mar 12, 2013

SandyF wrote:

yvind Strm wrote:

Lin, I do agree that many of this statements are way over the line, and as such I do not defend them. But you can't take them out of context like that. Where are the insults that led to those comments? Maybe not directly, but through repeated attacks.

RonJs comments were not like that in the beginning. Neither was any other posters that came here first time.

Often a poster comes here, and may have an unfortunate wording. And this is where it goes wrong - if there is any chance that it is a troll, he is jumped at. Especially if he has a low post count. RonJ is not the first this has happened for.

I think the first thread RonJ started is worth taking a look at. http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/post/50529614

that may have been his first thread under that username, but he himself posted that he previously posted under a different name.

Did he say what the name was, or is it a guess by someone who keep records of all previous "trolls", and assumed identities. I mean, it is one of the classic tactics used to miscredit people here. Ther must be a huge, hidden Intelligence cell, somewhere hidden in the Evangelists off forum interaction.

You have common sense, Sandy. He says he have posted under another name, but that  does not prove he has had the identity that he quickly was assumed having.

Plus major portions of several threads have been deleted, including some early nasty posts by "RonJG" but including also the one where he made that statement. You'll just have to believe me that posts have been deleted and the thread locked.

I know. (I would have believed you even if I didn't know) I do read most of the things here even if I do not post every day anymore. But correct me if I am wrong, the deletions/lockings regarding the user RonJ took place after the thread I linked to? Or else he would not have received civil responses from 17 people (incuding Lin and Laurence), would he? So, I stand by my claim that it is the uncivil responses from the the like of the 9 people in the thread I pointed to, that pushes a newcomer into talking back. It is just not OK, EVEN if one assume that the poster has a hidden history.

But, deletions makes it difficult to go back to find evidence of one thing or another. And since so many (Laurence included) treated the man nicely

You've missed a lot, Yvind.

Sandy, as I said, I read most of what happens here. And as you know, it is not the first time I adress the uncivil behaviour of some people here. Everytime I say to myself afterwards, whats the point? - I can't change a thing. But then someone really provoking is posted, and then I can't keep quiet. If I had the diagnosis Laurence suggested - "profilierungsneurose" :-), I should be posting more often, and all my posts should be longer.

Take care, Sandy.

Best regards, Sandy
http://www.pbase.com/sandyfleischman (archival)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sandyfleischmann (current)




-- hide signature --

Kind regards
Øyvind

Usee
Senior MemberPosts: 1,517Gear list
We should remember this - everytime when people gather together, for some strange reason...
In reply to yvind Strm, Mar 12, 2013

yvind Strm wrote:

SandyF wrote:

You've missed a lot, Yvind.

Sandy, as I said, I read most of what happens here. And as you know, it is not the first time I adress the uncivil behaviour of some people here. Everytime I say to myself afterwards, whats the point? - I can't change a thing. But then someone really provoking is posted, and then I can't keep quiet. If I had the diagnosis Laurence suggested - "profilierungsneurose" :-), I should be posting more often, and all my posts should be longer.

Take care, Sandy.

-- hide signature --

Kind regards
Øyvind

Re: The answer to the ULTIMATE question... (for a change):

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/post/42626449

...freedom and peace.

-- hide signature --

Envy is the highest form of recognition.
Stop to run, start to think.
Think twice - that doubles the fun!
Your world is as big, as Your mind.
Avoid to have only one point of view!
Uli

Richard Franiec
Senior MemberPosts: 2,158Gear list
Re: Imaginings
In reply to Laurence Matson, Mar 12, 2013

Laurence Matson wrote:

Richard Franiec wrote:

Laurence,

I got nothing against beta testers. In fact, I do believe that they have crucial role in discovering faults and inadequacies in any new product or prototype. There is nothing to be ashamed of to be in the position to use one's expertise in truthful evaluation of given product and pointing out areas requiring improvements. Sometimes the improvements are not possible under current state of affairs and this is understandable but denial or discounting the fault by tester is not.

Good.

What I find disturbing is the presence of the beta tester or insider on the public forum, not per se but acting in the role of manufacturer's representative, or if you like, compensated or not shill. Forcing (repeatedly) one sided views with more or less diplomatic approach including attacks on people with different perspective gives away their identity and agenda. Who benefits from such behavior? The community? Sigma? I don't believe that lashing others to submission is the way of work acceptable for great educators, which most familiar with the subject should be. I also don't believe that untruth or partial truth becomes the truth when repeated a thousand times. Maybe this approach works for some but majority of regulars on many forums (especially this one) are independent, open minded thinkers who can read between the lines or like you would phrase, separate chaff from grain.

Of the people, who I have known working more closely with Sigma or Foveon by invitation, I do not know of one person, who fits the mold you have defined. At least not consistently. Not one. I believe you are projecting a model on to people that fits some perception you have of how. More often than not, the people with an agenda are those, who are disappointed, such as Ron or Øyvind, both of whom have ranted here about their SD14s. And when they got a push back in the form of a solution, they regarded it as some aggressive attack.

Laurence, with all due respect, I have to disagree with your perception. If you have time to review the Yvind's posts, perhaps you should try to take a closer look at 180 deg direction.

If you read Hulyss's post without your filter above, I think you have a clearer portrait of what passionate people do.

You don't need the imaginary filter, only open mind.

I did read Hulyss's post, liked it and responded accordingly. Actually, Hulyss went above and beyond what typical Sigma/Foveon defender would dare to acknowledge. His admission of color problems for pre DP3M cameras is refreshing and full of hope. I'm giving him two thumbs up for being realistic, enthusiastic and truthful (with evidence to see for all).

And were you as careful a reader over the long term as you expect others to be in public with their language, you would have discovered that omission is an art form of discretion and solution-finding is motivation to speak.

Of course I was. I have noticed the omission (of responses) to some of my posts. In fact in some of the threads I was the last poster, still waiting for response. I really cannot find the fault with (offensive, if you have that in mind) language in any of them. I don't have much of spare time on mu hands so, please, forgive me for not attaching the links.

Look at the cräp Kendall has to put up with by constantly telling people that there is a solution to the battery problem with the DPxM: turn off your camera between shots. He is not avoiding the problem; he is providing a solution.

What prompted you to open this can of worms is beyond my comprehension (if I have any in your view).

Why Kendall (who I like as a person) and others are going to the desperate measures telling everyone to turn the cam off between the shots or to buy six packs of batteries from different brands because the ones from other brands are less expensive than OEM's and, after all, they don't take much space in rucksack? That is the best you could do? Is this a magic wand to make obvious problem disappear?

If some of beta testers will feed the news to Sigma that the battery life is unacceptable and you have to do something about that to at least match the common expectations and Sigma would respond with the solution, that would be something to value and remember.

For instance, the SD9 was launched 10 years ago with a funny haloing approach to solving blown highlights. Someone at Foveon probably thought this hack would fly. It was mentioned by Phil almost immediately. Since Foveon contacted some people here about possible solutions - I was not part of that - the level of criticism dropped right away while something was worked out.

Bravo!

I cannot recall any postings about a "solution is on its way" and I have been banned from researching past postings by our new moral leader Øyvind, you will have to take it on faith that this might have happened and most certainly has at other times - see recent postings on Adobe working on Sigma cameras for ACR.

Always better to make friends than enemies. Have you tried to extend your hand to Yvind and work out the differences between both of you?

I don't like terms like Sigmafia, or fanboy, plentiful on this forum and I never use them. Since you have mentioned word "Evangelist" coined by the Sigma's founder for the close circle of followers, I think that this term is more adequate, palatable and also revealing. We'll see if it sticks:-D

He did not use the term for any "close circle." He used it with reference to every Sigma user out there. And if you were to read what Kazuto has written and said in public, you would understand that he thinks the same way.

Believe it or not but I have no ill feelings toward Sigma or the way they treat their supporters. If anything, working closely with such group is natural and, possibly, beneficial. The problem starts when such circle is trying to fight back anything contrary to what they (not necessarily Sigma) think is right and correct...and possible.You alvays have better horizon (in good weather) looking down from the top of the mountain than looking up on your ceiling.

On end of this musing I wish for more civility and respect for others and their opinions if that's not too much to ask.

No problem there. Just keep your imagination under control and do not project too much on to me or others. Taking someone at face value, i.e. reading carefully what they say at different levels, is equally as important. And don't come back to me about misreading Øyvind; I have read enough of his postings over the years. And you forget, perhaps, that my expertise is not in cameras by a long shot; it is in language and reading carefully what someone has written in one language to translate it into another.

Translating is a very responsible duty(!). Sometimes the true meaning of the sentence(s) can be lost or twisted in translation.

I don't like to take direct orders from anyone. What I post is what I feel and believe. No politics, no vested interests. Why are you trying to put a barrier in regard to Yvind postings? I'm not under NDA agreement with anybody or anyone.

Take care

Richard

-- hide signature --

Laurence
laurence at appledore-farm dot com
"The fact of being reported multiplies the apparent extent of any deplorable development by five- to tenfold" (or any figure the reader would care to supply).
Barbara Tuchman, A Distant Mirror
http://www.pbase.com/lmatson
http://www.pbase.com/sigmadslr
http://www.howardmyerslaw.com

 Richard Franiec's gear list:Richard Franiec's gear list
Sigma DP2 Merrill Canon EOS-1D Mark IV Canon EOS-1D X Canon EOS M Panasonic Lumix DMC-GM1 +5 more
Laurence Matson
Forum ProPosts: 11,095Gear list
Re: A Few Quotes....
In reply to yvind Strm, Mar 12, 2013

yvind Strm wrote:

SandyF wrote:

yvind Strm wrote:

Lin, I do agree that many of this statements are way over the line, and as such I do not defend them. But you can't take them out of context like that. Where are the insults that led to those comments? Maybe not directly, but through repeated attacks.

RonJs comments were not like that in the beginning. Neither was any other posters that came here first time.

Often a poster comes here, and may have an unfortunate wording. And this is where it goes wrong - if there is any chance that it is a troll, he is jumped at. Especially if he has a low post count. RonJ is not the first this has happened for.

I think the first thread RonJ started is worth taking a look at. http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/post/50529614

that may have been his first thread under that username, but he himself posted that he previously posted under a different name.

Did he say what the name was, or is it a guess by someone who keep records of all previous "trolls", and assumed identities. I mean, it is one of the classic tactics used to miscredit people here. Ther must be a huge, hidden Intelligence cell, somewhere hidden in the Evangelists off forum interaction.

I am sorry. You are delusional. This is not rocket science if you actually read this forum regularly, which you claim you do. (From what I can tell, you do not even read a thread well.) There is no hidden intelligence cell. You have been reading too much Stieg Larsson.

You have common sense, Sandy. He says he have posted under another name, but that does not prove he has had the identity that he quickly was assumed having.

Read the posts. The language - not just the words but rather syntax, style, grammar - is the same.

Plus major portions of several threads have been deleted, including some early nasty posts by "RonJG" but including also the one where he made that statement. You'll just have to believe me that posts have been deleted and the thread locked.

I know. (I would have believed you even if I didn't know) I do read most of the things here even if I do not post every day anymore. But correct me if I am wrong, the deletions/lockings regarding the user RonJ took place after the thread I linked to? Or else he would not have received civil responses from 17 people (incuding Lin and Laurence), would he? So, I stand by my claim that it is the uncivil responses from the the like of the 9 people in the thread I pointed to, that pushes a newcomer into talking back. It is just not OK, EVEN if one assume that the poster has a hidden history.

Nonsense. The ban took place on or about December 23, 2012. The other thread you are referring to came after that. Then he had to cool off for another spell. And since he is not here again and does not respond to e-mails, I can only assume that he could well have been banned or is sitting out another cooling off period.

But, deletions makes it difficult to go back to find evidence of one thing or another. And since so many (Laurence included) treated the man nicely.

But with your crack memory, you should remember all of the stuff deleted, which does not happen anymore. They just lock the threads. Deleting was done in the days of the older persona.

You've missed a lot, Yvind.

Sandy, as I said, I read most of what happens here.

I truly doubt that.

And as you know, it is not the first time I adress the uncivil behaviour of some people here. Everytime I say to myself afterwards, whats the point? - I can't change a thing.

Good rhetorical question. Right answer. Wrong follow-up.

But then someone really provoking is posted, and then I can't keep quiet. If I had the diagnosis Laurence suggested - "profilierungsneurose" :-), I should be posting more often, and all my posts should be longer.

So far, my diagnosis is spot on after this recent flare up.

I am sure you are a nice guy. Carl told me so, and I believe him on most things. But you are way out of your depth. You are going to bat in a big way for someone, who is a serial provoker by his own account. He has a very low threshold when it comes to what he perceives as lies, misstatements, stupidity, and dishonesty. I am sure that he has his redeeming qualities. And after quite a bit of correspondence with him, I am very sure that he is someone, who I would like to have my back. In his opinion, he is tough, forthright, and absolutely clear. And I have not even to begun to mention his feelings about Sigma.

All of this makes it very difficult to integrate him into a forum. You can go on and on about some do-good approach, and in a perfect world, I would agree with you. But forums are far from perfect when they are going well, and descend into the Hades neighborhood, when not. It does not take much provocation to get someone going. As you have me with your sloppy reading and self-righteous high-handedness. Some will say the same about me. But those, who have read my postings for the last 11 years here, know that I rarely get off into this Never Never Swampland, where I find myself now.

I am done, and leave you the last very many words.

-- hide signature --

Laurence
laurence at appledore-farm dot com
"The fact of being reported multiplies the apparent extent of any deplorable development by five- to tenfold" (or any figure the reader would care to supply).
Barbara Tuchman, A Distant Mirror
http://www.pbase.com/lmatson
http://www.pbase.com/sigmadslr
http://www.howardmyerslaw.com

maple
Senior MemberPosts: 2,649
Re: Why do I post here?
In reply to RonJG, Mar 12, 2013

This is the first time I’ve ever seen someone post to justify posting here.

Apparently you’ve had dreadful experience here. Mine is exactly the opposite. I find this forum immensely helpful. Here I got answers to most of my questions, and solutions to most of my problems. I’ve even recovered hundreds of images from a disrupted hd thanks to a member of this forum who responded to my SOS post and came to my rescue. One of the salvaged photos now adorns a wall of our big office. I've learnt something from this forum, through reading many informative and insightful posts and viewing numerous images shared here, many excellent, a few mediocre. I engage in discussions which can get very heated and even frustrating, but certainly help in improving my skills and knowledge in photography.

You blame others for your being in a sorry state here. You may rightfully do that. But if your experience is not shared by too many, then perhaps you owe yourself a few moments of retrospection. As the saying goes, when someone is in a pitiful state of affairs, he/she probably deserves it.

Sorry if you find me condescending and patronizing. But just like you. I don’t want to lie.

-- hide signature --

Maple

richard stone
Senior MemberPosts: 1,550
Re: Why do I post here?
In reply to RonJG, Mar 12, 2013

This verges on Comedy. A clear troll posts his ranting and then a fake cry for help, as if we are all naive children, and this justifies, apparently, a lot of hand-wringing and self-flagellation, about whether we are all as good people as we think we are, and could we be better people? Nausea.

Beta testers? You would think they would be the most annoyed people on the planet.

We get on the forum and say what we think (in a reasonably pleasant way) and post if we have questions. Or answers. How hard is that??? So long as we have a semblance of good manners, and some level of self-awareness, all works well enough.

On the other hand, trying to lecture others, or acting as if you are god's gift to photography and perception, is doomed to failure, for several reasons, not least of which is the idea that most people don't really have much to say and don't write very well either. Not to mention probably being wrong. And lacking organization in their writing. And then there is the problem that most of the audience tunes out anything that doesn't match their preconceived notions. Still there?

Now, the really good news: Ron is not really gone for good. He is just resting. True, it is probably some sort of forced sabbatical, but he will return, refreshed and ready.

Richard

-- hide signature --
yvind Strm
Veteran MemberPosts: 4,129
Re: We should remember this - everytime when people gather together, for some strange reason...
In reply to Usee, Mar 12, 2013

Yes, why can't we just sit under a tree and smell the flowers - together. 

-- hide signature --

Kind regards
Øyvind

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