Why do I post here? Locked

Started Mar 9, 2013 | Discussions
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Now, Richard!
In reply to Richard Franiec, Mar 11, 2013

Richard Franiec wrote:

mroy wrote:

Richard Franiec wrote:

What do you know about him?

Why do you ask at all?

Because if bruised ego is a predominant factor in formulating the further opinion, such opinion does not count much.

'Bruised ego' - and you know this from what?

Aren't you just a little bit self-righteous yourself here?

Michael

whisky
Contributing MemberPosts: 788Gear list
Re: Why do I post here?
In reply to RonJG, Mar 11, 2013

Some of you guys really get your knickers in a twist !!

It would be best for the Sigma Forum if we all used it constructively and stayed away from becoming personal with one another.

Photographic images etc are a bit subjective and, while fair criticism can be expected, it should be accepted and there is no call for sycophantic vendettas.

Let's keep it clean.

Let's see some narrative shots rather than 'snaps'.

There is, and has been, a lot of extremely useful, helpful, and informed comment passed on via the forum and this is the way it should be.

I have found, if one asks, generally there is someone out there who, kindly, is helpfully able to supply some  useful suggestions by way of answer.

Let's get back to exploiting the best aspects of Sigma Foveon cameras and building a credible case for why we use them.

If anyone has a problem with their Sigma gear then there are plenty options available to them.

Keep taking the tablets,

Cheers.

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Richard Franiec
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Re: Now, Richard!
In reply to mroy, Mar 11, 2013

mroy wrote:

Richard Franiec wrote:

mroy wrote:

Richard Franiec wrote:

What do you know about him?

Why do you ask at all?

Because if bruised ego is a predominant factor in formulating the further opinion, such opinion does not count much.

'Bruised ego' - and you know this from what?

Aren't you just a little bit self-righteous yourself here?

Michael

Self-righteous? How? I always have a due respect for people even if they disagree with me. No need to put anyone down or fight to death just for the heck of it or defending particular brand or model or even statement as one would in case of their own child. I'm always open to the constructive conclusions, for priceless learning purposes. But I have to confess that constructive, as I envision it, is not a common approach on any public forum I visit. In this environment making friends and be true to your beliefs is a difficult (sometimes impossible) balancing act. Being truthful, transparent and open minded is a key, I think.

Richard

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Richard Franiec
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Re: Nothing
In reply to SandyF, Mar 11, 2013

SandyF wrote:

Richard Franiec wrote:

mroy wrote:

Richard Franiec wrote:

What do you know about him?

Why do you ask at all?

Because if bruised ego is a predominant factor in formulating the further opinion, such opinion does not count much.

ahhh, this works several ways too. "Bruised ego" or envy may account for some of the anti-Sigma negativity too, I've often thought, not just in reference to this thread. I remember people posting, asking, how to get their hands on 'early' aka beta cameras and/or software and/or be part of the 'testing' group or have photos hung at shows, etc etc.

FWIW, all anyone needs to do to be part of a Sigma 'shoot' is to attend! No club membership card needed. In fact at the last shoot, not everyone was using Sigma cameras.

Best regards, Sandy
http://www.pbase.com/sandyfleischman (archival)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sandyfleischmann (current)

added: and name-calling just because someone is perceived as an 'insider' (rhetorical question, inside what?) I do not appreciate being called by RonJG, "the butcher." I actually tried to be helpful to him, as I try to be to most people, when he first began posting under his new username, and was rebuffed. I

Sandy,

You are a good soul on this forum, always ready to help and give the advice. no one in the right mind would deny it.

Thank you for invitation for Sigma shoot. Maybe I'll see you all next year.

Cheers

Richard

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Roland Karlsson
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Re: Why do I post here?
In reply to RonJG, Mar 11, 2013

RonJG wrote:

I don't have time for diplomacy which is nothing more than institutrionalised lying, designed to hide one's true feelings, beliefs or opinions. I spent too many years too close to too many governments to know that.

Hmmmmm ... not time for diplomacy?

I am not either much for manipulating my fellow human beings with planned and false kindness and sweet words. Not my style. I prefer honestly.

But ... some kindness and understanding is almost never wrong. Its a matter of style, that I sometimes fail in :-).

But ... I have learned by several years behind me that it is seldom a good idea to bruise up and get angry and say slightingly things. You lose with every word you write, even if you are right.

On more thing ... sometimes you cannot win .. even if you are right. If you get angry and shout and use faul words .. you lose and if you are kind and understanding you also lose ... as the crowd, for some reason, already have made their choice.

But back to the question at hand.

If you want help ... and understanding ... you need to provide sincere questions and examples.

Personally I dont have any Sigma cameras and dont cliam to have any. But .... I think it is reasonable that if you have the cameras and have problems .. that you show something.

Now, I know that the problems you talk about are not imagenary. They do exist. Several proofs of that. But ... it seems like the degree of problems varies from camera to camera. So ... a look at some of your problems might be good. And ... even thouh you may not like it ... you might do something wrong .. and then might get advices on the also. E.g. the Sigma cameras seems to be sensitive to under exposure.

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About a C
In reply to yvind Strm, Mar 11, 2013

Øyvind,

With all due respect, I think this is a bit over the top. I could just as easily sign on to "Splendid" and trump it with my own "Profilierungsneurose." There is something there.

Much of what you say has a grain of truth spiced with a dash of not-so-subtle and seemingly understated viperitude.

And all of it at such length begs the question: Why not just say: "Chill out, folks!"

But the length - Biblical by forum standards - is something I think you really like, because it gives the impression that you have more merit in what you say than others could possibly have.

This is blatantly untrue, again, with all due respect. You have not the slightest idea what others do in a holistic sense. You take a picture from here, blow it way up. First, through your labels: fanboys, wannabees, Richard Stones, "serial comparers," Sigmafia, Carl's wife (which I assume you mean with "Linn"), etc, and then have the gall to denigrate other things - meetings, trade shows, shoots, beta testing, personal contacts, dinners, tours - for what appears to be simple jealousy reasons, thereby ignoring the fact that many people here have dedicated considerable resources in terms of time and money to making this effort on the part of Foveon and Sigma somewhat successful. And for the most part, those people doing this, did not do it to make you or anyone else jealous (as you clearly are); amazing as the concept may seem to you, Sigma and Foveon actually reach out to users they can identify as serious people, who might have something important for them to hear.

As for your judgment of who is civil and who is not, I agree that a good tone is preferable, but I also think that sly humor, direct statements, and even brutal honesty also have their place. Pollyanna has just as little place here as does Attila the Hun, and by his own account, Ron is far closer to the latter.

What really killed your grade though is your placing yourself on some pedestal as the final arbiter of the good photograph. That last long paragraph addressed to Ron goes beyond the ridiculous and ends at the faux-sublime. You have an opinion about what makes a great picture and provide it - when you have the time. But it is only your opinion, and sometimes wrong in the eyes of others, who have every right to be just as correct or wrong as you.

Finally, your long list of characters reads like an Irish dramatis personae after a collective supping off the end of the Guinness pipeline before they have a group slash all over the pitch.

Here's my question to you: How much time do you actually spend off this forum constructively communicating with other members in an attempt to clean up some of the mess you perceive being here?

Nuff said for now. I am very interested to hear Ron's take on what you wrote.

yvind Strm wrote:

RonJG wrote:

I would seriously like to better understand the Sigma cameras I own, (SD1M, SD15 and DP2M). I have problems with all three of them with weird and inconsistent colours, weird and inconsistent exposure and strange jaggies and purple/green splotches in shadow detail.

I'm told I'm either mad or just stirring up trouble with I ask questions or am told that there is nothing wrong with my gear, that all the problems are either in my head or my fault.

The "help" I have received here has either been non existent or has been of such patronising quality it was immediately dismissed.

This forum is NOT a terribly helpful place to be if you fall out with the SigMafia, or if one of the SigMafia decides you are not worthy. One step out of line and the dog pack is released. Pretty disgusting behaviour I must say.

Anyhoo - I'm certainly no quitter and I will continue to try to get these Sigma things working at something approaching an acceptable level.

I will also continue to offer honest and open oipinion on posted pictures and I will continue challenging those persons I feel are being less than open or honest with their comments. If honest comments are not received at Sigma headquarters, problems will never be fixed. The 12 years or so of the purple/green splotches is testament to that.

Go your damndest, Sigmafia. I ain't leaving voluntarily.

Ron

I am sorry that I have missed your request for help. There ARE several helpful people here. I will do whatever I can to help. Please link to previous requests or write a new list. Even several member of the "sigmafia" are helpful - if you do not insult their cameras or Sigma, and when they not are busy with:

  1. defending against imaginary trolls
  2. scanning a posters history to find out if he has a Sigma
  3. scanning a posters history to find quotas to use against him
  4. denying that a problem exist, unless they have seen it themself (to be fair, only a few falls into this category)
  5. monitoring if one of their friends (or heroes) are beeing critisized
  6. managing their huge Ignore list
  7. feeding a posters post into a very advanced algorythm to match him against all previous persons that is disliked in this forum (which is an even huger list), and share among them
  8. mending their hurt feelings when someone critisize their camera or Sigma (oh, I have alraedy said that once)
  9. pulling out Richard Stone as last line of defence. Sorry, Richard - you wondered who would step out in defence of RonJ. That comment might have made some to refrain from doing so - which I have no doubt was the intention (and a new low, even from you) - but, sorry, not me. Oh, I must say, not so much in defence of RonJ, but against the behaviour of you and other fanboys. I would not accuse any of you fanboys beeing only 13 or so, but its not always easy to see that from your and others posts. Your language is of course too sophisticated, but the attacks are not.

And then there is the wannabees. Relativly new to the forum, they jump in, in defence (no, sorry, join the attack) of the master "fanboys".

There are also some hidden aspects in this forum, that is invisible to newcomers, but may explain some of the strange things happening here. Firstly, many of the oldtimers meet in person. On PMA - with tours (with equipment form Sigma), and dinners (sponosred by Sigma). Some may even be found behind the counters at Sigmas stand, helping Sigma demonstrating. So, maybe some are defending priviledges in addition to camera/Sigma?

Next thing is Beta testers. Several people here are betatesters for Sigma. Would you find it reasonable to expect that they agreed on faults they did not find when testing?

Dunno why I write this - I don't know how many times I have tried to get people to behave better here. I claim that the fanboy approach of to many here, is harming Sigma. For every poster there are many, many lurkers. People are attracted to Sigma, comes here to see if Sigma has a good community - and what do they find? A bunch of uncivil people that jumps in unison on anyone differing in views about their camera or Sigma. Does it scare some from buying Sigma cameras? I am sure it has.

The Sigmafia/fanboy behaviour of this forum may drive out some unwanted individuals (and yes, that has been done successfully many times over the years) and regain the illusion of a cosy place. To me, it is the fanboys, Sigmafia or whatever name appropriate that spoils almost ALL the spoiled discussions here, by far to often responding in an uncivil way. The favorite excuse is that there has been so many trolls coming here over the years, so people have a low tolerance.

I have used Sigma for several years now (oh, I havn't shown a picture of a glass of water yet, so Linn probably do not believe it). From the very launch of my camera (the SD14) the forum flooded with faults. Over the coming years I collected tips and tricks, and turned it into a compendium for new users. (Temporarely unavailible)

My take is - let's get everything on the table. If a persons unit doesn't show the same behaviour, good for you - but do not deny problems other have. Only if everything is out in the open, workarounds can be found (or not), and Sigma can be notified and make a fix. Sigma cameras is different, quirks are numerous, Sigmas SW qualities is inferior to most others makers and unit variation is present. I thought I could use the SD14 for professional jobs, but had to postpone my plans for returning to pro jobs for several years.

But in the end, one must decide if the potentionally superb results makes it worth the endless frustrations of the camera. I can't risk using my SD14 to earn money, so I go for a Nikon D800E, which I consider closest to getting Sigmas microcontrast. And possibly a DP2M.

Ron, a few words of advice to you too.

If someone posts a picture, and do not especially ask for feedback, a good advice is to wait a little, till the usual Ahhs, and Ohhs has come, and the author do not prostests to getting positive feedback, then I can step in, either to challenge the responders to why they think it is a good image, or offering a rather extensive comment about the picture. I always say what I mean, but I try to do it in a constructive way. But, some people do ONLY want pats on their back, which they unfortunately get from friends and alike. SO you can still be honest, but I too think you came off to direct in your first post.

With that said, the responses from Linn and others was far worse.

-- hide signature --

Kind regards
Øyvind

-- hide signature --

Laurence
laurence at appledore-farm dot com
"The fact of being reported multiplies the apparent extent of any deplorable development by five- to tenfold" (or any figure the reader would care to supply).
Barbara Tuchman, A Distant Mirror
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http://www.pbase.com/sigmadslr
http://www.howardmyerslaw.com

Scott Greiff
Senior MemberPosts: 1,576Gear list
Re: Why do I post here?
In reply to RonJG, Mar 11, 2013

RonJG wrote:

This forum is NOT a terribly helpful place to be if you fall out with the SigMafia, or if one of the SigMafia decides you are not worthy. One step out of line and the dog pack is released. Pretty disgusting behaviour I must say.

Resorting to name calling will get you the respect you deserve.

-Scott

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Gary Dean Mercer Clark
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Re: About fanboys
In reply to DMillier, Mar 11, 2013

DMillier wrote:

Splendid, splendid post!

By the way, quite by chance I came across a thread on the Fuji forum demanding to know whether Fuji's could take shots like this:

http://www.anotherfaceinthecrowd.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/testshot-2.jpg

This example is a long way from the kind of genre I shoot,but to these eyes, this is asuperbly lit and shot image where responsibility for almost all the quality lies with the photographer, not the gear. He/she would have achieved these professional results with just about any kit.

So in answer to the OP in the fuji forum and the earlier poster in this thread who said only Foveon can capture the light, I say it's not about gear, it's about skill and experience...

-- hide signature --

As I recall, some of the best black and white images I've seen posted online were shot by you with your Nex 3.  The camera is the tool.  You are the creator.

-- hide signature --

Gary Dean Mercer Clark

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Roland Karlsson
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Re: Why do I post here?
In reply to Scott Greiff, Mar 11, 2013

Scott Greiff wrote:

RonJG wrote:

This forum is NOT a terribly helpful place to be if you fall out with the SigMafia, or if one of the SigMafia decides you are not worthy. One step out of line and the dog pack is released. Pretty disgusting behaviour I must say.

Resorting to name calling will get you the respect you deserve.

Thats too easy. In this forum, and in many other places, there tend to be some people that consider themselves regulars and a part of the inner group. Its human thing. Its generally not bad, but it has its problems. More or less, depending of time and place.

Calling this group SigMafia is a play with words. Maybe unnecessary and maybe insulting. But ... it might be a kind of accurate name. A group with some humour might even call themselves thus.

So ... your voiced opinion that Ron deserves disrespect just because he uses that word, I dont really agree with.

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docmaas
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My approach: try to be proactive in responding
In reply to Scott Greiff, Mar 11, 2013

One of my hobbies is trying to keep up with some of the recent neurological behavior research.  It seems to me the more we learn the more the question of "Are we driving the brain or is the brain driving us?" seems to be coming down on the side of the brain driving us.  I hasten to say that it is a very complex question and my conclusion is very general.

I believe that our most fundamental positioning of ourselves with reference to others is largely beyond our control unless an intentional attempt to understand how we position ourselves and why.  Even with such an attempt proactive communication is necessary and our biological endowed characteristics will out themselves if we allow them free reign.  Without such proactive reflection we often jump into the water without knowing if it is freezing or boiling.  Equally important is an attempt to view others as handicapped with the same proclivity for similar kinds of uncontrolled responses.

I'm sometimes offended when no offense was intended but rather an incompatible response was tendered not out of malfeasance but rather out of what is simply a different way of seeing and approaching our interactions.  Consequently, if I can write out my initial response than let it sit a bit before I send it and in the meantime think more clearly about what is intended rather than what I may perceive I can respond more neutrally.  Sometimes though it is very difficult not to send something inappropriate or hurtful when the styles clash.  This is because our ability to understand is very deeply ingrained and difficult to control.

Many years ago while teaching English in Taiwan I came up with a simple statement I used to try to encourage my students to be a little more tolerant.  Essentially it says just because one way of doing/saying is different from another doesn't mean it is wrong; it only means it is different.  I don't always appreciate some of the posts on the forum but when I think about it, I try to see them as different in nature literally.  Society is made up of all kinds of genome determined types of people and not all of us are going to feel good about some of the other types but we can see them as merely different rather than wrong or bad in most social situations.

If you wish to understand how different types of people see the world and others have a look at the enneagram or briggs-myers materials.  We truly are not all the same and thank goodness for that.

If you wish to see what is going on in science and medicine in general I've found physorg.com to be a very useful site with its only drawback being it can suck up way too much time if you have broad interests or are attention deficit disordered.

Mike

Richard Franiec
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Re: About a C
In reply to Laurence Matson, Mar 11, 2013

Laurence Matson wrote:

Øyvind,

... and then have the gall to denigrate other things - meetings, trade shows, shoots, beta testing, personal contacts, dinners, tours - for what appears to be simple jealousy reasons, thereby ignoring the fact that many people here have dedicated considerable resources in terms of time and money to making this effort on the part of Foveon and Sigma somewhat successful. And for the most part, those people doing this, did not do it to make you or anyone else jealous (as you clearly are); amazing as the concept may seem to you, Sigma and Foveon actually reach out to users they can identify as serious people, who might have something important for them to hear.

Laurence
laurence at appledore-farm dot com
"The fact of being reported multiplies the apparent extent of any deplorable development by five- to tenfold" (or any figure the reader would care to supply).
Barbara Tuchman, A Distant Mirror
http://www.pbase.com/lmatson
http://www.pbase.com/sigmadslr
http://www.howardmyerslaw.com

Interesting,

Until now beta testing for Sigma with all perks (listed or not) were taboo on this forum.

Your confession begs for answers:

1. Who are the beta testers for Sigma and participate in this forum?

2. What are the criteria to become beta tester for Sigma?

3. How beta testers are compensated by Sigma?

4. List of suggestions to Sigma leading to improvement of product.

5. Are the "serious" users opinions more important than average user observations and wishes?

6. Was SD1 initial price influenced by beta testers opinions?

These are my initial questions. I guess that it wiill be more coming.

Cheers

Richard

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Roland Karlsson
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Re: My approach: try to be proactive in responding
In reply to docmaas, Mar 11, 2013

Thoughtful response. Yeah, lots of conflicts are due to different views upon things. Many other conflicts are due to people wanting conflicts. It is much easier to answer a post if you can claim something in the post to be wrong. Its more interesting. Some even go so far to searching for reasons to start a fight.

But, the other extreme, that everything are just opinions, and nothing is wrong, is not so good either. If someone asks a question and gets 5 faulty answers. What shall I do then if I know the correct answer? I can, of course, just give my answer and hope that the questioner understands that my answer is the correct one. Might work. Might be a good idea ... maybe. But ... it feels much more helpful to tell that its me that knows the answer and that the others are wrong.

Then we have the classical one. I come here and I have something to say hat is not beneficial for Sigma. I might ask if the at last have solved those blotches. Or I might ask about the battery life. Both "hinting" at Sigma shortcomings. There are hundreds of things I could do that could be interpreted as trolling, if you so want. Innocent or not.

And some take upon them to defend, sometimes even by attack, and sometimes with correct and helpful responses. Differs.

Humans are strange animals.

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Gary Dean Mercer Clark
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wow.
In reply to RonJG, Mar 11, 2013

You can't judge another person until you've walked a mile in their shoes------You can try.... but the shoes will never fit!----2013 Gary Dean Mercer Clark


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SandyF
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Re: About a C
In reply to Richard Franiec, Mar 11, 2013

nothing has been taboo, 'beta' has often been discussed. I found this thread in about 5 seconds of searching .... http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/post/38487973

FWIWI've never been involved....**  but I recall reading above and other threads that it's mainly been about getting images. Just look at the sample images on the Sigma websites for galleries of various cameras.

**ooops, full disclaimer, Carver Mead once brought an EARLY engineering SD14 to a conference ....with which I took a few shots....

Best regards, Sandy
http://www.pbase.com/sandyfleischman (archival)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/sandyfleischmann (current)

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Richard Franiec
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Re: About a C
In reply to SandyF, Mar 11, 2013

I remember that thread but it does not answer my questions

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Re: wow.
In reply to Gary Dean Mercer Clark, Mar 11, 2013

Gary Dean Mercer Clark wrote:

You can't judge another person until you've walked a mile in their shoes-

I have never understood this one. OK - its good to learn about a person before judging him. But, what has that to do with walking in his shoes?

You can try.... but the shoes will never fit!----2013 Gary Dean Mercer Clark

This I understand even less. Why should the shoes not fit? If they fit or not is only dependent on we having the same foot size.

But .... I think I agree in principle. Too many do too fast judgements of people. And in a forum where the actual communication is strongly crippled, you should avoid judging people until after a loooooooong time.

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Re: About a C
In reply to Richard Franiec, Mar 11, 2013

Richard Franiec wrote:

I remember that thread but it does not answer my questions

The questions are generally old and moot. Back in the old good/bad times questions like this were used in order to claim that some people here were bought by Sigma.

I have frankly very little interest in getting answers. Whatever was done, or not done, is history now.

What is more interesting is the current Sigma contact network. But ... its probably not discussed in this forum.

Another interesting thing would be to know about Sigma imager research. But ... except for patents now and then, this went in stealth mode many years ago. A pity. You can read much more about Bayer research than Foveon research on the net.

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Re: About a C
In reply to Roland Karlsson, Mar 11, 2013

Roland Karlsson wrote:

Richard Franiec wrote:

I remember that thread but it does not answer my questions

The questions are generally old and moot. Back in the old good/bad times questions like this were used in order to claim that some people here were bought by Sigma.

I have frankly very little interest in getting answers. Whatever was done, or not done, is history now.

What is more interesting is the current Sigma contact network. But ... its probably not discussed in this forum.

Another interesting thing would be to know about Sigma imager research. But ... except for patents now and then, this went in stealth mode many years ago. A pity. You can read much more about Bayer research than Foveon research on the net.

Old question when never answered directly is not moot, it still stands.

You don't have to follow the answers (if any), it is your choice but not mine.

Best

Richard

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docmaas
Veteran MemberPosts: 4,790
Re: My approach: try to be proactive in responding
In reply to Roland Karlsson, Mar 11, 2013

Thanks Roland,

My contention is that both the "people wanting conflicts" and the "searching for reasons to start a fight" examples along with many many others are largely unrecognized in the individuals with the attitudes in question and a little forbearance and proactive responding will go a long way toward not adding fuel to the fire.

Some of us can do this, for others it will be very difficult and what is a natural response on the part of some may actually not only appear challenging and agressive but will in fact be just that but I'm still unwilling to attribute to maleficence what can be more easily explained by inborn uncontrolled tendencies on the part of the "offender".

In fact I see little evidence that people take this aspect of behavior into consideration when corresponding with difficult posts and posters.  Alas this is just one more aspect of the human condition.  We are no more inclined to rational thought than the deer who ignore the deer crossing signs.  We are victims of our biological constraints but were we not we would not "be" at all.

As you say we are indeed strange but more properly strangers to logical action instead basing our interactions on our emotional responses.  That's why proactive rather than reactive responses facilitate conversations.

Mike

Roland Karlsson wrote:

...Many other conflicts are due to people wanting conflicts. It is much easier to answer a post if you can claim something in the post to be wrong. Its more interesting. Some even go so far to searching for reasons to start a fight...

But, the other extreme, that everything are just opinions, and nothing is wrong, is not so good either. If someone asks a question and gets 5 faulty answers. What shall I do then if I know the correct answer? I can, of course, just give my answer and hope that the questioner understands that my answer is the correct one. Might work. Might be a good idea ... maybe. But ... it feels much more helpful to tell that its me that knows the answer and that the others are wrong.

Then we have the classical one. I come here and I have something to say hat is not beneficial for Sigma. I might ask if the at last have solved those blotches. Or I might ask about the battery life. Both "hinting" at Sigma shortcomings. There are hundreds of things I could do that could be interpreted as trolling, if you so want. Innocent or not.

And some take upon them to defend, sometimes even by attack, and sometimes with correct and helpful responses. Differs.

Humans are strange animals.

yvind Strm
Veteran MemberPosts: 4,130
Thanks
In reply to Richard Franiec, Mar 11, 2013

Richard

Thank you so much!

Richard Franiec wrote:

Thank you Yvind for the guts and resulting sobering post. I'm sure the issues you have pointed out resonate well with feelings of many participants on this forum and lurking observers alike.

Also, I'm so grateful for the thread you started way back (and Uli reminded us of) about what the good picture is all about. I think this was the most valuable guide provided in simple terms and backed up with critique examples posted in any forum or found in any book I saw. I know, it has changed the way I approach my own photo taking in rather dramatic way and will serve as an reminder forever.

Gratefully,

Richard

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Kind regards
Øyvind

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