Why do I post here? Locked

Started Mar 9, 2013 | Discussions
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RonJG
Regular MemberPosts: 200
Why do I post here?
Mar 9, 2013

I would seriously like to better understand the Sigma cameras I own, (SD1M, SD15 and DP2M). I have problems with all three of them with weird and inconsistent colours, weird and inconsistent exposure and strange jaggies and purple/green splotches in shadow detail.

I'm told I'm either mad or just stirring up trouble with I ask questions or am told that there is nothing wrong with my gear, that all the problems are either in my head or my fault.

The "help" I have received here has either been non existent or has been of such patronising quality it was immediately dismissed.

This forum is NOT a terribly helpful place to be if you fall out with the SigMafia, or if one of the SigMafia decides you are not worthy. One step out of line and the dog pack is released. Pretty disgusting behaviour I must say.

Anyhoo - I'm certainly no quitter and I will continue to try to get these Sigma things working at something approaching an acceptable level.

I will also continue to offer honest and open oipinion on posted pictures and I will continue challenging those persons I feel are being less than open or honest with their comments. If honest comments are not received at Sigma headquarters, problems will never be fixed. The 12 years or so of the purple/green splotches is testament to that.

Go your damndest, Sigmafia. I ain't leaving voluntarily.

Sigma DP2 Sigma SD15
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BobNL
Veteran MemberPosts: 4,911Gear list
Re: Why do I post here?
In reply to RonJG, Mar 9, 2013

So why do you post here? I failed to find the answer in your post.

Instead of using the word Sigmafia etc so much. Maybe just ask if anyone could help you out, might work.

So what are exactly the problems you have? Make list with clear description and we'll see what some of us can offer to help. Just one warning; so many people, so many opinions. And a lot of people do not really excel in the art of diplomacy

-- hide signature --

Bob van Ooik
V-studio
----------------------------------------------
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http://www.x3magazine.com/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bobnl/

 BobNL's gear list:BobNL's gear list
Sigma DP1 Sigma DP1 Merrill Sigma DP3 Merrill Sigma DP2 Quattro Nikon D700 +3 more
sfa1966
Veteran MemberPosts: 3,179Gear list
Re: Why do I post here?
In reply to RonJG, Mar 9, 2013

RonJG wrote:

I would seriously like to better understand the Sigma cameras I own, (SD1M, SD15 and DP2M). I have problems with all three of them with weird and inconsistent colours, weird and inconsistent exposure and strange jaggies and purple/green splotches in shadow detail.

I'm told I'm either mad or just stirring up trouble with I ask questions or am told that there is nothing wrong with my gear, that all the problems are either in my head or my fault.

Just wondering: Have you ever posted any examples of the various troubles you have had?

-- hide signature --

Cheers,
sfa

 sfa1966's gear list:sfa1966's gear list
Sigma DP1 Sigma DP2 Merrill Pentax K-5 Pentax smc DA 15mm F4 ED AL Limited Pentax smc DA* 16-50mm F2.8 ED AL (IF) SDM +9 more
Lin Evans
Forum ProPosts: 15,629Gear list
Want some credibility?
In reply to RonJG, Mar 9, 2013

RonJG wrote:

I would seriously like to better understand the Sigma cameras I own, (SD1M, SD15 and DP2M). I have problems with all three of them with weird and inconsistent colours, weird and inconsistent exposure and strange jaggies and purple/green splotches in shadow detail.

I'm told I'm either mad or just stirring up trouble with I ask questions or am told that there is nothing wrong with my gear, that all the problems are either in my head or my fault.

The "help" I have received here has either been non existent or has been of such patronising quality it was immediately dismissed.

This forum is NOT a terribly helpful place to be if you fall out with the SigMafia, or if one of the SigMafia decides you are not worthy. One step out of line and the dog pack is released. Pretty disgusting behaviour I must say.

Anyhoo - I'm certainly no quitter and I will continue to try to get these Sigma things working at something approaching an acceptable level.

I will also continue to offer honest and open oipinion on posted pictures and I will continue challenging those persons I feel are being less than open or honest with their comments. If honest comments are not received at Sigma headquarters, problems will never be fixed. The 12 years or so of the purple/green splotches is testament to that.

Go your damndest, Sigmafia. I ain't leaving voluntarily.

Take a water glass out of your kitchen. Take it outside and set it somewhere convenient so that you can photograph it.

Now take one image of it from each of your cameras listed below.

1. With your SD1M
2. With your SD15
3. With your DP2M
4. With your D800E (which you referenced in your post below and on the Fuji forum)

Where you say you have D800E link

Post the RAW files and provide the forum with a link. Then perhaps people here might be willing to listen to your comments and help you. The "only" images any of us have every seen from you were from the Fuji X-Pro1.

Lin

-- hide signature --

learntomakeslidshows.net

ArvoJ
Senior MemberPosts: 1,222Gear list
Re: Why do I post here?
In reply to RonJG, Mar 9, 2013

RonJG wrote:

I would seriously like to better understand the Sigma cameras I own, (SD1M, SD15 and DP2M).

Then ask about specific problems, their causes, possible solutions or workarounds. Ask politely, do not get obsessed with emotional answers, do not try to insult others. Express your opinions in neutral way, do not talk down other people.

Easy? Just generic forum etiquette, nothing more.

-- hide signature --

Arvo
Sigma/Foveon information collection and little galleries:
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http://www.stv.ee/~donq/images.htm

SigmaChrome
Veteran MemberPosts: 7,053Gear list
Re: Why do I post here?
In reply to ArvoJ, Mar 9, 2013

ArvoJ wrote:


RonJG wrote:

I would seriously like to better understand the Sigma cameras I own, (SD1M, SD15 and DP2M).

Then ask about specific problems, their causes, possible solutions or workarounds. Ask politely, do not get obsessed with emotional answers, do not try to insult others. Express your opinions in neutral way, do not talk down other people.

Easy? Just generic forum etiquette, nothing more.

I couldn't agree more, Arvo.

Post some photos and point out where you see the problems. And stop labeling people SigMafia and liars. You'll catch more flies with honey.

-- hide signature --
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Sigma DP1 Sigma DP2 Merrill Sony RX100 Sigma DP3 Merrill Sigma SD14 +13 more
NancyP
Senior MemberPosts: 3,731Gear list
Are there other Sigma Foveon user group fora? Have you tried SPP 5.5 yet?
In reply to RonJG, Mar 9, 2013

I would like to know, and many others no doubt want to know. More knowledge is better. I can't speak to your issues re banding, odd color splotches, as I am a new user. In the relatively few shots I have made, I haven't run into the problem, but that doesn't mean it can't exist.

Have you tried the latest SPP 5.5 yet?

I am not averse to having these questions raised, I just don't have much knowledge.

 NancyP's gear list:NancyP's gear list
Sigma DP3 Merrill
ChromeLight
Senior MemberPosts: 2,511
Re: Why do I post here?
In reply to RonJG, Mar 9, 2013

RonJG wrote:

I would seriously like to better understand the Sigma cameras I own, (SD1M, SD15 and DP2M). I have problems with all three of them with weird and inconsistent colours, weird and inconsistent exposure and strange jaggies and purple/green splotches in shadow detail.

I'm told I'm either mad or just stirring up trouble with I ask questions or am told that there is nothing wrong with my gear, that all the problems are either in my head or my fault.

The "help" I have received here has either been non existent or has been of such patronising quality it was immediately dismissed.

This forum is NOT a terribly helpful place to be if you fall out with the SigMafia, or if one of the SigMafia decides you are not worthy. One step out of line and the dog pack is released. Pretty disgusting behaviour I must say.

Anyhoo - I'm certainly no quitter and I will continue to try to get these Sigma things working at something approaching an acceptable level.

I will also continue to offer honest and open oipinion on posted pictures and I will continue challenging those persons I feel are being less than open or honest with their comments. If honest comments are not received at Sigma headquarters, problems will never be fixed. The 12 years or so of the purple/green splotches is testament to that.

Go your damndest, Sigmafia. I ain't leaving voluntarily.

Not sure what you mean by weird and inconsistent colors. As Michael Reichman said the Foveon colors are like 1970s Astia. I rather like it. The source of your light is important, as is picking the right white balance and then further refinement with the color wheel. Inconsistent, yes. Uncorrectable, not really.

Weird exposure? Yup. It takes huge resources and decades of proprietary refinement to come up with a world class AE module. Nikon and Canon have them. Sigma never will.

I think the 'jaggies' turn up in European architecture. We don't have that much of  a problem if you shoot US buildings.

Purple/green splotches are called noise. If you shoot at +.7 exposure compensation it will help. I don't take Foveon cameras over ISO 400. In high contrast situations where you are preserving highlights you will still tend to underexpose dark areas and might get the noise.

To be honest, if these things bother you I would just keep one Foveon camera and use a D800 for your more general work. Use the Foveon for those times when you know you will be shooting within the 'performance envelope' of the Foveon camera--i.e., good natural light. Use a bayer camera for everything else. I used to have an SD9, SD14 and an SD1. (I regret selling my SD1.) I miss the Foveon colors.

Complaining about Foveon is like complaining that Suzuki doesn't make a two door convertible turbo charged car. You're right. They don't, and they never will. So move on to Porsche and stop complaining.

DMillier
Forum ProPosts: 17,491
Re: Why do I post here?
In reply to RonJG, Mar 9, 2013

I agree that some of your complaints are correct some of the time but I think you haven't helped yourself.  Maybe if you just lay out the problems you are experiencing and ask for help, someone will step up.

-- hide signature --
TalleyrandBH
Forum MemberPosts: 61
Re: Why do I post here?
In reply to DMillier, Mar 9, 2013

I find the information here very helpful.  I feel fortunate to have access to so many people interested in Foveon technology.  Once in while there is a bit of jousting, yes.  But overall I definitely do NOT find that here.  I'm grateful for this forum. Thank you to all!!

D Cox
Senior MemberPosts: 7,205
Re: Why do I post here?
In reply to ChromeLight, Mar 9, 2013

ChromeLight wrote:

Purple/green splotches are called noise. If you shoot at +.7 exposure compensation it will help. I don't take Foveon cameras over ISO 400. In high contrast situations where you are preserving highlights you will still tend to underexpose dark areas and might get the noise.

You get similar chroma noise in other cameras, as well as Sigma.

To be honest, if these things bother you I would just keep one Foveon camera and use a D800 for your more general work. Use the Foveon for those times when you know you will be shooting within the 'performance envelope' of the Foveon camera--i.e., good natural light. Use a bayer camera for everything else. I used to have an SD9, SD14 and an SD1. (I regret selling my SD1.) I miss the Foveon colors.

Complaining about Foveon is like complaining that Suzuki doesn't make a two door convertible turbo charged car. You're right. They don't, and they never will. So move on to Porsche and stop complaining.

RonJG
Regular MemberPosts: 200
Re: Why do I post here?
In reply to sfa1966, Mar 9, 2013

sfa1966 wrote:

RonJG wrote:

I would seriously like to better understand the Sigma cameras I own, (SD1M, SD15 and DP2M). I have problems with all three of them with weird and inconsistent colours, weird and inconsistent exposure and strange jaggies and purple/green splotches in shadow detail.

I'm told I'm either mad or just stirring up trouble with I ask questions or am told that there is nothing wrong with my gear, that all the problems are either in my head or my fault.

Just wondering: Have you ever posted any examples of the various troubles you have had?

-- hide signature --

Cheers,
sfa

Yes.

RonJG
Regular MemberPosts: 200
Re: Why do I post here?
In reply to ArvoJ, Mar 9, 2013

ArvoJ wrote:


RonJG wrote:

I would seriously like to better understand the Sigma cameras I own, (SD1M, SD15 and DP2M).

Then ask about specific problems, their causes, possible solutions or workarounds. Ask politely

Been there. Done that. Got nothing but "It's something you/re doing" or some patronizing nonsense which I dismissed immediately.

, do not get obsessed with emotional answers, do not try to insult others.

I don't. I defend myself against lies and attack.

Express your opinions in neutral way, do not talk down other people.

Difficult to talk up to most of these people.

Easy? Just generic forum etiquette, nothing more.

That's meant to go two ways.


 
RonJG
Regular MemberPosts: 200
Re: Why do I post here?
In reply to SigmaChrome, Mar 9, 2013

SigmaChrome wrote:

ArvoJ wrote:


RonJG wrote:

I would seriously like to better understand the Sigma cameras I own, (SD1M, SD15 and DP2M).

Then ask about specific problems, their causes, possible solutions or workarounds. Ask politely, do not get obsessed with emotional answers, do not try to insult others. Express your opinions in neutral way, do not talk down other people.

Easy? Just generic forum etiquette, nothing more.

I couldn't agree more, Arvo.

Post some photos and point out where you see the problems. And stop labeling people SigMafia and liars.

When they lie, I'll call them on it.

You'll catch more flies with honey.

That's a bit sucky, isn't it? You're suggesting I post dishonestly in order I receive positive response. Therer's something fundamentally wrong with that.

-- hide signature --
RonJG
Regular MemberPosts: 200
Re: Are there other Sigma Foveon user group fora? Have you tried SPP 5.5 yet?
In reply to NancyP, Mar 9, 2013

NancyP wrote:

I would like to know, and many others no doubt want to know. More knowledge is better. I can't speak to your issues re banding, odd color splotches, as I am a new user. In the relatively few shots I have made, I haven't run into the problem, but that doesn't mean it can't exist.

Have you tried the latest SPP 5.5 yet?

Yes I have. Just this morning. I can say it is far better with colour balance than the previous versions.

I am not averse to having these questions raised, I just don't have much knowledge.

Nor, apparently, do the "experts."  I mean - this purple/green thing has been happening for over a decade.

RonJG
Regular MemberPosts: 200
Re: Why do I post here?
In reply to ChromeLight, Mar 9, 2013

ChromeLight wrote:

RonJG wrote:

I would seriously like to better understand the Sigma cameras I own, (SD1M, SD15 and DP2M). I have problems with all three of them with weird and inconsistent colours, weird and inconsistent exposure and strange jaggies and purple/green splotches in shadow detail.

I'm told I'm either mad or just stirring up trouble with I ask questions or am told that there is nothing wrong with my gear, that all the problems are either in my head or my fault.

The "help" I have received here has either been non existent or has been of such patronising quality it was immediately dismissed.

This forum is NOT a terribly helpful place to be if you fall out with the SigMafia, or if one of the SigMafia decides you are not worthy. One step out of line and the dog pack is released. Pretty disgusting behaviour I must say.

Anyhoo - I'm certainly no quitter and I will continue to try to get these Sigma things working at something approaching an acceptable level.

I will also continue to offer honest and open oipinion on posted pictures and I will continue challenging those persons I feel are being less than open or honest with their comments. If honest comments are not received at Sigma headquarters, problems will never be fixed. The 12 years or so of the purple/green splotches is testament to that.

Go your damndest, Sigmafia. I ain't leaving voluntarily.

Not sure what you mean by weird and inconsistent colors.

The white balance is never consistent. Take 6 photos within seconds of each other of the same subject in the same light and you gill get 6 differing colour responses and six different exposures.

As Michael Reichman said the Foveon colors are like 1970s Astia. I rather like it. The source of your light is important, as is picking the right white balance and then further refinement with the color wheel. Inconsistent, yes. Uncorrectable, not really.

Weird exposure? Yup. It takes huge resources and decades of proprietary refinement to come up with a world class AE module. Nikon and Canon have them. Sigma never will.

I have been using an old hand-held Gossen light meter to try to counter the exposure problems. It doesn't totally solve the problem. I seriously think there is something in the electronic circuitry that either over-heats or needs time to "recharge" between shots. Even using the Gossen in controlled light, the output from the camera can vary.

I think the 'jaggies' turn up in European architecture. We don't have that much of a problem if you shoot US buildings.

Purple/green splotches are called noise. If you shoot at +.7 exposure compensation it will help. I don't take Foveon cameras over ISO 400. In high contrast situations where you are preserving highlights you will still tend to underexpose dark areas and might get the noise.

Tried that and to highlights are then blown and look dreadful when recovered.

To be honest, if these things bother you I would just keep one Foveon camera and use a D800 for your more general work. Use the Foveon for those times when you know you will be shooting within the 'performance envelope' of the Foveon camera--i.e., good natural light. Use a bayer camera for everything else. I used to have an SD9, SD14 and an SD1. (I regret selling my SD1.) I miss the Foveon colors.

When the Sigma gets it right, it gets it spectacularly right. That is what annoys me. If it can get it right occasionally, why is it so damned difficult to make the results consistent.

Complaining about Foveon is like complaining that Suzuki doesn't make a two door convertible turbo charged car. You're right. They don't, and they never will. So move on to Porsche and stop complaining.

I have invested quite heavily into the Sigma system and am no quitter. I WILL get this sorted out. Sigma need to take ownership of some of the problems but they don't  see the problems reported very often, if ever, because the zealots deny there are problems. That gets my goat somewhat.

RonJG
Regular MemberPosts: 200
Re: Why do I post here?
In reply to DMillier, Mar 9, 2013

DMillier wrote:

I agree that some of your complaints are correct some of the time but I think you haven't helped yourself. Maybe if you just lay out the problems you are experiencing and ask for help, someone will step up.

-- hide signature --

I've tried that David, only to be told the problems are of my making, that there's nothing wrong with the camera.

I have had some private emails from some very decent people (most of whom don't bother posting here) which have helped somewhat.

I admit to having something of a short fuse when it comes to responding to people who attack, are dishonest or who are technically incompetent.

RonJG
Regular MemberPosts: 200
Re: Why do I post here?
In reply to BobNL, Mar 9, 2013

BobNL wrote:

So why do you post here? I failed to find the answer in your post.

Instead of using the word Sigmafia etc so much. Maybe just ask if anyone could help you out, might work.

So what are exactly the problems you have? Make list with clear description and we'll see what some of us can offer to help. Just one warning; so many people, so many opinions. And a lot of people do not really excel in the art of diplomacy

-- hide signature --

Bob van Ooik
V-studio
----------------------------------------------
http://vstudio-magazine.de/
http://www.x3magazine.com/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bobnl/

Hello Bob

I responded to your message last night, but it didn't go through for some reason.

I've mentioned the problems I'm having on any number of occasions and all I've really received back is "It's not the camera", or the advice has been so patronising as to be immediately dismissed.

I don't have time for diplomacy which is nothing more than institutrionalised lying, designed to hide one's true feelings, beliefs or opinions. I spent too many years too close to too many governments to know that.

Thank you for your suggestion though. It's appreciated.

Lin Evans
Forum ProPosts: 15,629Gear list
Re: Why do I post here?
In reply to RonJG, Mar 9, 2013

RonJG wrote:

sfa1966 wrote:

RonJG wrote:

I would seriously like to better understand the Sigma cameras I own, (SD1M, SD15 and DP2M). I have problems with all three of them with weird and inconsistent colours, weird and inconsistent exposure and strange jaggies and purple/green splotches in shadow detail.

I'm told I'm either mad or just stirring up trouble with I ask questions or am told that there is nothing wrong with my gear, that all the problems are either in my head or my fault.

Just wondering: Have you ever posted any examples of the various troubles you have had?

-- hide signature --

Cheers,
sfa

Yes.

Why then don't you point sfa1966 to a single image you have posted here with any of the three Sigma cameras or the D800E which you own?

I can't find a single instance of any Sigma images you have posted on dPReview. I asked you to photograph a simple water glass with each of your Sigma cameras and your D800E and post links to the RAW images and you ignored the request.

Yet you continually tell others who frequently post images from their Sigma cameras what is wrong with them, or more accurately what you "think" is wrong with them. You do this in an arrogant and condescending manner. Until you demonstrate that you actually use these cameras, you will have no credibility with me at all. Frankly, I don't believe you have any of them. I will immediately apologize to you if and when you demonstrate the veracity of your claims. From what I've seen of your captures on the Fuji forum and from your posts there, I'm also not impressed with the knowledge of photography which you profess. You argue with photographers who have credibility and who have demonstrated their competence and your favorite comment is "ha, ha, ha, ha" - that's real impressive! When you can't justify your opinion, you laugh.

Man up and show us some images if you have the equipment and then perhaps people might take you seriously.

Lin

-- hide signature --

learntomakeslidshows.net

RonJG
Regular MemberPosts: 200
Re: Why do I post here?
In reply to Lin Evans, Mar 10, 2013

Lin Evans wrote:

RonJG wrote:

sfa1966 wrote:

RonJG wrote:

I would seriously like to better understand the Sigma cameras I own, (SD1M, SD15 and DP2M). I have problems with all three of them with weird and inconsistent colours, weird and inconsistent exposure and strange jaggies and purple/green splotches in shadow detail.

I'm told I'm either mad or just stirring up trouble with I ask questions or am told that there is nothing wrong with my gear, that all the problems are either in my head or my fault.

Just wondering: Have you ever posted any examples of the various troubles you have had?

-- hide signature --

Cheers,
sfa

Yes.

Why then don't you point sfa1966 to a single image you have posted here with any of the three Sigma cameras or the D800E which you own?

Why? What's with your obsession.

I can't find a single instance of any Sigma images you have posted on dPReview. I asked you to photograph a simple water glass with each of your Sigma cameras and your D800E and post links to the RAW images and you ignored the request

Why should I bow and scrape to you? Who are you to give me orders?

Yet you continually tell others who frequently post images from their Sigma cameras what is wrong with them,

Very, very infrequently actually.

Do please try to be honest. Big ask, I know, but with a bit of effort you may get there.

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