IQ of 7d w 15-85mm Vs 6d w 24-105mm?

Started Mar 8, 2013 | Questions
MAC
MAC
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Re: What about The Digital Picture.com tests?
In reply to qianp2k, Mar 12, 2013

qianp2k wrote:

dxo messes it up

yeah, if only t's not in your way. What they messed up? So DXO also messed up DR in Sony and Nikon cameras vs Canon cameras? It's fake that Nikon cameras have better DR?

photozone says -- you can't use their numbers to compare across formats

It just means a sensor-lens resolution only applies to that setup. The data they measured on 50D doesn't apply to 7D directly. So I did in your favorite by applying linear increase directly as in reality the resolution increase is less than linear pixel increase that DXOMark tests clearly show.

within the same format, move back and get the same fov - that is the way it is done in the same format with different lenses.

The same AOV (and I don't care which way actually they did as long as the same AOV) a) by using different focus lengths on different sensor crop format accordingly; b) by adjusting distance according; c) by both.

We'll never agree on this Peter, so I'll leave you go on your confused by charts way.

The cropped, lopped off sensor is not a lens.  It is not digital zoom as you said.   It is unfair to move the cropped sensor farther away in an format equivalency comparison because it is not an optic used to magnify a scene.  It is a lopped off sensor and deserves to be in the same geographical position and distance from the subject as the FF system.  Please don't handicap my crop system by making me move backwards.  The concept of equivalency is let me choose  nice lenses with the format I have from the same geographical position.

And this is not how DXO, TDP, Photozone, tested resolution.  But the real truth is -- this is how photographs are taken -- from the cliff -- no place to move, choose the lens from the same position.  Or in a pj shoot -- no time to move feet.

Resolution is fine for me anyway with 18 mpxl crop, I'm 19x13 and below most of the time and my occasional 20x30 look good.

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qianp2k
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Re: Missed it
In reply to Mako2011, Mar 12, 2013

Mako2011 wrote:

qianp2k wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

ultimitsu wrote:

MAC wrote:

ultimitsu wrote:


It is intuitive. Moving further away -- in general, takes a better, more expensive optic to display the same resolution.

And with crop sensor you HAVE to move further away because you do not have enough sensor to cover the scene. This is exactly how it ought to be.

Not when comparing formats....The distance needs to be the same when comparing across formats.

Did you get it 15mm on 1.6x crop = 24mm on 1.0x crop having the same AOV (or FOV) from the same distance? What's difficult to understand?

To actually compare properly the characteristics of this discussion across formats you must...

  • The photos all have the same AOV (diagonal angle of view) and aperture (entrance pupil) diameter: 50mm / 2 = 62.5mm / 2.5 = 67mm / 2.7 = 100mm / 4 = 25mm.

  • The photos all have the same DOF (as well as diffraction softening) when they have same perspective (subject-camera distance), AOV, aperture diameter, and display size.

  • The photos all have the same motion blur and the same total amount of light falls on the sensor when the aperture diameter and shutter speed are the same (e.g. ISO 100 on mFT, ISO 160 on APS-C, and ISO 400 on FF).

  • The photos all have the same same noise when the same total amount of light falls on the sensor if the sensors are equally efficient (less noise if the sensor is more efficient, more noise if the sensor is less efficient).

  • Other elements of IQ, such as resolution, bokeh, flare resistance, etc., as well as elements of operation, such as AF speed/accuracy, size, weight, etc., are not covered in this use of the term "equivalent".

DXO is an analysis site, not raw data provider. Until you can prove their analysis is wrong then please do give us a break.

So then MAC must be right until you can prove him wrong

That's what I said you only playing the game of words, nonsense.

Does illustrate a valid concept here though

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Gee, this becomes denial of everything, LOL.  Yeah, right, you need to have a P&S camera DOF and AOV or whatever in mind when you use a DSLR, what's a rubbish.  Talking, talking, talking, but please show us some real world photos that only matter.

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Dave Luttmann
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Re: True
In reply to MAC, Mar 12, 2013

MAC wrote:

Dave Luttmann wrote:

No Peter....you are wrong....again.

gianp2k says he agrees with photozone.de

Here is what photozone Repeats 11 Times on the same web page:

http://www.photozone.de/Reviews

"Please note that the tests results are not comparable across the different systems!"

Yup.  But he claims they are wrong and that you can.  Cue another one off photo from Peter that could have been done on a 7D, 60D, and pretty much any other aps-c camera.

He cant seem to post a side by side image comparing cameras....always just one shot.

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Mako2011
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Dogs
In reply to qianp2k, Mar 12, 2013

qianp2k wrote:

MAC wrote:

Dave Luttmann wrote:

No Peter....you are wrong....again.

gianp2k says he agrees with photozone.de

Here is what photozone Repeats 11 Times on the same web page:

http://www.photozone.de/Reviews

"Please note that the tests results are not comparable across the different systems!"


here is 5D2+24-105L at 5000-pixel wide.

Interesting single snapshot that compares nothing regards the discussion. Like a discussion about that value of German Sheppard as guards dogs then showing a picture of an empty leash to prove the point.



Does depict well how over saturation might come into play regards average visual acuity. DXP does factor that in in some fashion yet to be explained.

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usedtobedontrustme
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Re: Correct
In reply to qianp2k, Mar 12, 2013

qianp2k wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

qianp2k wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

qianp2k wrote:

MAC wrote:


What? You are very confused. Are we talking about 15mm on 7D vs 24mm on 5D to have the same AOV if you shoot from the same distance between camera/lens and the subject?

MAC is correct. You should have read the articles and tutorials I linked.

You seem never read this CROP FACTOR read to understand.

I did, you seem to be misunderstanding the context. No matter, regardless of your level of understanding, it not will not help DXO get more accurate results.

This is a personal insult as you hint you have superior understanding than me. Please elaborate what's my level of understanding from your perspective?

It's you lacking of understanding and photography knowledge as you even didn't understand crop factor (you thought I was talking about cropping) and FOV = AOV (you don't know widely in DPR forums FOV = AOV) as we first exchanged a few weeks' ago, nobody misunderstood except you.

The link I quoted above clearly indicates,

The crop factor is sometimes referred to as "magnification factor",[3] "focal length factor" or "focal length multiplier"

A given lens casts the same image no matter what camera it is attached to. The extra "magnification" occurs when the image is enlarged more to produce output (print or screen) that matches a standard output size. That is, the magnification as usually defined, from subject to focal plane, is unchanged, but the system magnification from subject to final output is increased.

It explains very clearly that a 100mm lens is still 100m focus length on whatever crop format camera. However the reason you could have 160mm FF eq AOV by using a 100mm lens on 7D for example is thru 1.6x crop magnification that pixels are enlarged 1.6x to project onto the same standard output. It's digital zooming actually.

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I think crop size sensors would in effect cause optical zooming, not digital zooming. Digital zooming is expanding available info via software and that is not the case here. With aps-c cameras and lenses the magnification is the affect of the lens directing the light onto the smaller sensor.

Here is some conjecture on my part. I would think that an a asp-c camera with an asp-c lens  gets more magnification from the lens and imprecisions in the less would be more conspicuous under the scrutiny of the magnification.  However, I'm confesson that I never took a lesson.

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Mako2011
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From example
In reply to qianp2k, Mar 12, 2013

qianp2k wrote:

 but please show us some real world photos that only matter

By your example, I take my cue:

That should prove my point without a doubt...at least you seem to think so in most cases.

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qianp2k
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Re: Dogs
In reply to Mako2011, Mar 12, 2013

Mako2011 wrote:

qianp2k wrote:

MAC wrote:

Dave Luttmann wrote:

No Peter....you are wrong....again.

gianp2k says he agrees with photozone.de

Here is what photozone Repeats 11 Times on the same web page:

http://www.photozone.de/Reviews

"Please note that the tests results are not comparable across the different systems!"


here is 5D2+24-105L at 5000-pixel wide.

Interesting single snapshot that compares nothing regards the discussion. Like a discussion about that value of German Sheppard as guards dogs then showing a picture of an empty leash to prove the point.



Does depict well how over saturation might come into play regards average visual acuity. DXP does factor that in in some fashion yet to be explained.

Not in content, just want to see your APS-C/DX photos with similar walk-around lenses such as C/15-85 or N/16-85 or respective 17-55/2.8. Bring up a 5000-pixel photo and let's compare resolution. Please don't shift topic to artistic or something else, just resolution. I am waiting to see. I know my 60D cannot deliver so I am waiting your guys who argued vigorously to prove your claims, please.

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Re: From example
In reply to Mako2011, Mar 12, 2013

Mako2011 wrote:

qianp2k wrote:

but please show us some real world photos that only matter

By your example, I take my cue:

That's small size? You got kidding me. I am asking 5000-pixel wide.

That should prove my point without a doubt...at least you seem to think so in most cases.

Oh, my one is under shadow while your one is most under sunlight. Bring up a big size please. Actually personally I don't like your Nikon's over-saturated reddish/orange color cast

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Dave Luttmann
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Re: Dogs
In reply to qianp2k, Mar 12, 2013

qianp2k wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

qianp2k wrote:

MAC wrote:

Dave Luttmann wrote:

No Peter....you are wrong....again.

gianp2k says he agrees with photozone.de

Here is what photozone Repeats 11 Times on the same web page:

http://www.photozone.de/Reviews

"Please note that the tests results are not comparable across the different systems!"


here is 5D2+24-105L at 5000-pixel wide.

Interesting single snapshot that compares nothing regards the discussion. Like a discussion about that value of German Sheppard as guards dogs then showing a picture of an empty leash to prove the point.



Does depict well how over saturation might come into play regards average visual acuity. DXP does factor that in in some fashion yet to be explained.

Not in content, just want to see your APS-C/DX photos with similar walk-around lenses such as C/15-85 or N/16-85 or respective 17-55/2.8. Bring up a 5000-pixel photo and let's compare resolution. Please don't shift topic to artistic or something else, just resolution. I am waiting to see. I know my 60D cannot deliver so I am waiting your guys who argued vigorously to prove your claims, please.

Why dont you post a side by side shot like I have?

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Mako2011
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total miss
In reply to qianp2k, Mar 12, 2013

qianp2k wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

qianp2k wrote:

but please show us some real world photos that only matter

By your example, I take my cue:

That's small size? You got kidding me. I am asking 5000-pixel wide.

That should prove my point without a doubt...at least you seem to think so in most cases.

Oh, my one is under shadow while your own is most under sunlight. Bring in big size please. Actually personally I don't like your Nikon's over-saturated reddish/orange color cast.

You obviously completely missed the point...and the EXIF

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Re: total miss
In reply to Mako2011, Mar 12, 2013

Mako2011 wrote:

qianp2k wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

qianp2k wrote:

but please show us some real world photos that only matter

By your example, I take my cue:

That's small size? You got kidding me. I am asking 5000-pixel wide.

That should prove my point without a doubt...at least you seem to think so in most cases.

Oh, my one is under shadow while your own is most under sunlight. Bring in big size please. Actually personally I don't like your Nikon's over-saturated reddish/orange color cast.

You obviously completely missed the point...and the EXIF

haha, that only explains you over-processed  but check details, where those textual details such as bricks etc, seem pretty washed out, soft and mushy, that will be very obvious if you can post a 5000-pixel wide

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Dave Luttmann
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LMAO
In reply to Mako2011, Mar 12, 2013

Mako2011 wrote:

qianp2k wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

qianp2k wrote:

but please show us some real world photos that only matter

By your example, I take my cue:

That's small size? You got kidding me. I am asking 5000-pixel wide.

That should prove my point without a doubt...at least you seem to think so in most cases.

Oh, my one is under shadow while your own is most under sunlight. Bring in big size please. Actually personally I don't like your Nikon's over-saturated reddish/orange color cast.

You obviously completely missed the point...and the EXIF

LMAO!  Another epic fail for Peter claiming to see things that dont exist.

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Mako2011
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Complete
In reply to qianp2k, Mar 12, 2013

Here is a complete proof that DXO is off a bit in a way you might better understand.

Should be very clear now.

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Re: total miss
In reply to qianp2k, Mar 12, 2013

qianp2k wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

qianp2k wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

qianp2k wrote:

but please show us some real world photos that only matter

By your example, I take my cue:

That's small size? You got kidding me. I am asking 5000-pixel wide.

That should prove my point without a doubt...at least you seem to think so in most cases.

Oh, my one is under shadow while your own is most under sunlight. Bring in big size please. Actually personally I don't like your Nikon's over-saturated reddish/orange color cast.

You obviously completely missed the point...and the EXIF

haha, that only explains you over-processed but check details, where those textual details such as bricks etc, seem pretty washed out, soft and mushy, that will be very obvious if you can post a 5000-pixel wide

Every bit as sharp as yours...and yours has bad grains in the sky.  And haven't you always claimed a green cast for Nikon?  And now, on a whim, you claim something different.  It appears you just make this up on the fly.

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Mako2011
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a sale
In reply to qianp2k, Mar 12, 2013

qianp2k wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

qianp2k wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

qianp2k wrote:

but please show us some real world photos that only matter

By your example, I take my cue:

That's small size? You got kidding me. I am asking 5000-pixel wide.

That should prove my point without a doubt...at least you seem to think so in most cases.

Oh, my one is under shadow while your own is most under sunlight. Bring in big size please. Actually personally I don't like your Nikon's over-saturated reddish/orange color cast.

You obviously completely missed the point...and the EXIF

haha, that only explains you over-processed but check details, where those textual details such as bricks etc, seem pretty washed out, soft and mushy, that will be very obvious if you can post a 5000-pixel wide

You do make me smile...I wish I had a bridge to sell right now

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qianp2k
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Re: Complete
In reply to Mako2011, Mar 12, 2013

Mako2011 wrote:

Here is a complete proof that DXO is off a bit in a way you might better understand.

that vividly prove how mushy and soft of 7D photos in large size.  unbelievable tons of noises and grain.  That's the IQ and resolution you're proud of?  you got kidding me!

Should be very clear now.

Very clear 7D with your lens is very mushy and soft, details washed out, very grainy/noisy Nothing can compare to 5D2+24-105L.



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Re: a sale
In reply to Mako2011, Mar 12, 2013

Mako2011 wrote:

qianp2k wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

qianp2k wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

qianp2k wrote:

but please show us some real world photos that only matter

By your example, I take my cue:

That's small size? You got kidding me. I am asking 5000-pixel wide.

That should prove my point without a doubt...at least you seem to think so in most cases.

Oh, my one is under shadow while your own is most under sunlight. Bring in big size please. Actually personally I don't like your Nikon's over-saturated reddish/orange color cast.

You obviously completely missed the point...and the EXIF

haha, that only explains you over-processed but check details, where those textual details such as bricks etc, seem pretty washed out, soft and mushy, that will be very obvious if you can post a 5000-pixel wide

You do make me smile...I wish I had a bridge to sell right now

weird colors, but gee where those details and sharpness/resolution as shown in my photo?



But thanks for you to share photos.  I believe real world photos explain everything, no many blah words needed

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Re: Complete
In reply to qianp2k, Mar 12, 2013

qianp2k wrote:

Mako2011 wrote:

Here is a complete proof that DXO is off a bit in a way you might better understand.

that vividly prove how mushy and soft of 7D photos in large size. unbelievable tons of noises and grain. That's the IQ and resolution you're proud of? you got kidding me!

Should be very clear now.

Very clear 7D with your lens is very mushy and soft, details washed out, very grainy/noisy Nothing can compare to 5D2+24-105L.



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I see noise in the sky and halos from your sharpening routine.

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Mako2011
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Well then
In reply to qianp2k, Mar 12, 2013

Well then, since we are on a roll...lets try another example photo that totally proves my point

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Dave Luttmann
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Re: Well then
In reply to Mako2011, Mar 12, 2013

Mako2011 wrote:

Well then, since we are on a roll...lets try another example photo that totally proves my point

Just pat him on the head, give him a gold star and tell him he's right and everyone else is wrong.  He can have his per pixel sharpness....none of my clients comment on that and they continue to buy my work.

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