The US won't have mirrorless? (Sans Mirror)

Started Mar 5, 2013 | Discussions
Mahmoud Mousef
Senior MemberPosts: 2,292
Like?
Re: what is his source?
In reply to amalric, Mar 6, 2013

amalric wrote:

Why don't you ask him the questions instead of playing the wiseass?

Open forums get more interesting (and immediate) discussions?

Maybe he'll chime in. I don't know him or his record in market analysis / predictions.

All I'm suggesting is this stuff can be read many different ways and the info provided here is very vague and short on details.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Revenant
Junior MemberPosts: 49
Like?
Re: what is his source?
In reply to Mahmoud Mousef, Mar 6, 2013

Mahmoud Mousef wrote:

Where does he find these statistics?

Unless I'm missing something, he doesn't name his source(s).

Thom often quotes the official figures reported by CIPA each month, and I guess that's his source this time too, although, as you point out, he neglects to name his source(s). Note that CIPA only receive information about the number of units shipped from the Japanese manufacturers, so companies like Samsung and Leica aren't included. I don't know Thom's source for the revenue figures, but I'm sure someone reports those too.

http://www.cipa.jp/english/data/dizital.html

* Is a superzoom cam counted under 'compacts'? Are all cams with non-removable lenses 'compacts' or something other?

"Compacts" is marketing speak for non-interchangeable lens cameras, so yes, that includes superzoom/bridge cams, as well as large-sensor cameras like the Fuji X100. The DSLR category probably includes the Sony SLTs, as they are marketed as a kind of DSLR. "Mirrorless" includes all other interchangeable lens cameras. Thom basically uses the same categories as CIPA, only they label the categories "camera with built-in lens" and "camera with interchangeable lens", the latter with the sub-categories "single lens reflex" and "non-single lens reflex".

* Are accessories counted? If so, how are they counted and segmented between compact, DSLR and mirrorless, especially on those accessories that can be shared between camera segments?

No, only cameras. CIPA have separate statistics for lenses, but not for other accessories.

http://www.cipa.jp/english/data/silver.html

* He seems to have some regional data on the US and Japan, but not much else regarding regions. Unit sales up in Japan compared to January last year, but down 20% in the USA during the same period. Lots of factors could be contributing to this of course, but what about the rest of the world?

CIPA breaks down their numbers into five different regions: Japan, Americas, Europe, Asia and Other areas.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Eamon Hickey
Veteran MemberPosts: 3,151
Like?
his source: CIPA (link included)
In reply to Mahmoud Mousef, Mar 6, 2013

Mahmoud Mousef wrote:

Where does he find these statistics?

Unless I'm missing something, he doesn't name his source(s).

He didn't name it, but his source is CIPA (Camera & Imaging Products Association). This is the Japanese camera industry trade association. They publish some high-level monthly statistics on Japanese camera manufacturing and shipments. You can find them here:

http://www.cipa.jp/english/data/index.html

It takes a bit of study to figure out what you're reading in their stats, which are intended for people in the industry. But CIPA publishes unit shipments in total and by region, for DSLRs, CSCs, and compacts, and also the value of shipments in those same breakdowns. They show them in a slightly complex table that includes year-over-year comparisons.

These figures come from Japanese camera manufacturers, so they represent factory shipments, not retail sales. They do not include non-Japanese manufacturers, but the only significant business that omits is Samsung's compact (i.e. point-and-shoot camera) business.

Although I think Thom is reading too much into year-over-year figures for one month (January over January for 2012 and 2013), his interpolations about average selling price and his understanding of how CIPA categorizes cameras is sound. So, several of your questions below are easily answered.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Bob Topp
Regular MemberPosts: 406Gear list
Like?
Interesting observations
In reply to Revenant, Mar 6, 2013

It's informative to see observations from so many regions, and I might add, sad to see that many are the same, even at an international level.  I live in a reasonably populated area in north Alabama, but am dependent on DPReview and similar sites for any news about cameras.  From what I am reading, it does not seem to matter much whether people are in heavily populated or sparsely populated areas- we just don't see much Olympus and Panasonic presence in the chain stores.  After the stellar reviews of the OM-D when it first came out, I wanted to handle one in the worst way.  Wolf Camera (now defunct) carried the EP series cameras, but never an OM-D.  Best Buy is the biggest joke of all, and the only independent dealer in town is nearly all Canon these days.

On a lark I stopped into a large camera store (Murphy's) in Louisville, Kentucky and found the OM-D in stock, and even one on display with a charged battery!  As my wife stood by doing a slow burn, I bought the camera immediately.  Yeah, to her it looked like an impulse buy, but I had actually been shopping for it for eight months by then.  The key for me was to be able to handle the camera.  By contrast, I am very impressed by the overall capabilities of the T4i, for instance, but I cannot stand to handle any of the Rebel cameras.  By the way, Murphy's is a huge camera store, and yes, the Olympus shelves were quite small- but at least they were there!

What puzzles me most, though, is places like Best Buy, where the availability of even Olympus and Panasonic compacts has shrunk noticeably over the last ten years.  Olympus, in particular, had excellent market penetration with compacts, and Panasonic had a fair offering.   Yet, some days it is hard to find even their P&S cameras on the shelves. Unlike independent stores, the weak point for very large chains is at the corporate level, where a small number of buyers control the stock for the entire company.  These buyers are not much influenced by cameras reviews (and sometimes don't even seem to notice what's selling well in their own stores), but I suspect that they are heavily influenced by the well-financed sales staff of the large OEMs.

Tom K., in a comment above, expressed the opinion that Americans are not monolithic.  We would like to believe that, but the prevalence of large chains with tremendous buying power confines the market to a limited number of camera styles and brands.  ...or I might say, a limited number of affordable cameras.  Certainly we are all free to shop by mail order, but honestly, how many of us are going to purchase a $1,000+ camera sight-unseen?  In effect we become monolithic because we buy what is available/affordable, even though we lust for more.  Thank goodness for the internet- it feeds our dreams, if nothing else.

-- hide signature --

Bob Topp

 Bob Topp's gear list:Bob Topp's gear list
Nikon D300 Nikon D700 Olympus OM-D E-M5 Olympus E-M1 Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.8D +21 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Mahmoud Mousef
Senior MemberPosts: 2,292
Like?
Re: what is his source?
In reply to Revenant, Mar 6, 2013

CIPA it is.

Thanks to Thom for taking the time to respond to me personally.

When I read this thread title (a bit provocative) and then I went to read the article and saw no source being mentioned, I went a bit long-winded because so many people accept everything they read without questioning the source or how data was collected.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
sdw1
Forum MemberPosts: 67
Like?
Re: Interesting observations
In reply to Bob Topp, Mar 6, 2013

I research and buy online - so big chains don't matter much.

Displaced IL / IN Boy to VA for work reasons...

Scott

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
amalric
Forum ProPosts: 10,740
Like?
Re: Interesting observations
In reply to sdw1, Mar 6, 2013

sdw1 wrote:

I research and buy online - so big chains don't matter much.

Displaced IL / IN Boy to VA for work reasons...

Scott

Exactly my take. Go to Amazon and you'll see that most of the reviewers there are patently American, at least by their English.

So in a way Internet buying does not respect brick and mortar sales, which are obviously local.

Possibly if there was no Ecommerce we wouldn't even have a site where to discuss. In a way it is a nation by itself. Some niche  companies might have lifted off and survive only because of the Internet, which is cross borders.

This perhaps helps rebalancing the OP. Although there are different native cultures, in Internet buying we might be more similar than different. Or at least we can discuss our choices.

Am.

-- hide signature --
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
YouDidntDidYou
Senior MemberPosts: 1,576
Like?
Re: The US won't have mirrorless? (Sans Mirror)
In reply to amalric, Mar 9, 2013

16 million children living in poverty in the USA

living life to the Four Thirds!
http://www.YouDidntDidYou.com/blog

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Henry Richardson
Forum ProPosts: 12,764
Like?
I think there is a laziness
In reply to amalric, Mar 9, 2013

I think Americans, in general, just aren't as lazy as so many people in the countries where small mirrorless cameras are more popular than bigger and heavier DSLRs.  I don't know why this might be though.  Americans, in general, seem to be willing to work a bit harder and carry heavier DSLRs.

I am one of the Americans that has m4/3 gear, so my level of laziness must be similar to the others here in this forum.

-- hide signature --

Henry Richardson
http://www.bakubo.com

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
amalric
Forum ProPosts: 10,740
Like?
Re: I think there is a laziness
In reply to Henry Richardson, Mar 9, 2013

Henry Richardson wrote:

I think Americans, in general, just aren't as lazy as so many people in the countries where small mirrorless cameras are more popular than bigger and heavier DSLRs. I don't know why this might be though. Americans, in general, seem to be willing to work a bit harder and carry heavier DSLRs.

I am one of the Americans that has m4/3 gear, so my level of laziness must be similar to the others here in this forum.

Strange answers. I never mentioned that Americans were lazy, so collect yourself.

Am.

-- hide signature --
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
tedolf
Forum ProPosts: 16,377Gear list
Like?
I did....
In reply to amalric, Mar 9, 2013

amalric wrote:

Henry Richardson wrote:

I think Americans, in general, just aren't as lazy as so many people in the countries where small mirrorless cameras are more popular than bigger and heavier DSLRs. I don't know why this might be though. Americans, in general, seem to be willing to work a bit harder and carry heavier DSLRs.

I am one of the Americans that has m4/3 gear, so my level of laziness must be similar to the others here in this forum.

Strange answers. I never mentioned that Americans were lazy, so collect yourself.

Am.

-- hide signature --

I did see above

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/post/50980143

Tedolph

 tedolf's gear list:tedolf's gear list
Olympus PEN E-PL1 Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 9-18mm 1:4.0-5.6 Olympus M.Zuiko Digital 17mm 1:2.8 Pancake Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 40-150mm 1:4-5.6 Olympus M.Zuiko Digital 14-42mm 1:3.5-5.6 II R +10 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Henry Richardson
Forum ProPosts: 12,764
Like?
Re: I think there is a laziness
In reply to amalric, Mar 9, 2013

amalric wrote:

Henry Richardson wrote:

I think Americans, in general, just aren't as lazy as so many people in the countries where small mirrorless cameras are more popular than bigger and heavier DSLRs. I don't know why this might be though. Americans, in general, seem to be willing to work a bit harder and carry heavier DSLRs.

I am one of the Americans that has m4/3 gear, so my level of laziness must be similar to the others here in this forum.

Strange answers. I never mentioned that Americans were lazy, so collect yourself.

Sheesh.  Why are you so touchy?  I didn't say you did say anything about it.  I am just suggesting an explanation for why mirrorless is less popular in the States.

-- hide signature --

Henry Richardson
http://www.bakubo.com

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Henry Richardson
Forum ProPosts: 12,764
Like?
Re: I did....
In reply to tedolf, Mar 9, 2013

tedolf wrote:

I did see above

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/post/50980143

I haven't gone through and read all the posts here.  When I get time I will try to scan over a few.

-- hide signature --

Henry Richardson
http://www.bakubo.com

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
amalric
Forum ProPosts: 10,740
Like?
Re: I did....
In reply to tedolf, Mar 9, 2013

tedolf wrote:

amalric wrote:

Henry Richardson wrote:

I think Americans, in general, just aren't as lazy as so many people in the countries where small mirrorless cameras are more popular than bigger and heavier DSLRs. I don't know why this might be though. Americans, in general, seem to be willing to work a bit harder and carry heavier DSLRs.

I am one of the Americans that has m4/3 gear, so my level of laziness must be similar to the others here in this forum.

Strange answers. I never mentioned that Americans were lazy, so collect yourself.

Am.

-- hide signature --

I did see above

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/post/50980143

Tedolph

So you are the culprit

That shows well that a nation can say bad things about itself, but won't let others do it

Yet we are on the boundless Internet...

Am.

-- hide signature --
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
tedolf
Forum ProPosts: 16,377Gear list
Like?
When you see...
In reply to Henry Richardson, Mar 9, 2013

Henry Richardson wrote:

tedolf wrote:

I did see above

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/post/50980143

I haven't gone through and read all the posts here. When I get time I will try to scan over a few.

-- hide signature --

Henry Richardson
http://www.bakubo.com

a post with eight "thumbs up" that is the one you read first.

Tedolph

 tedolf's gear list:tedolf's gear list
Olympus PEN E-PL1 Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 9-18mm 1:4.0-5.6 Olympus M.Zuiko Digital 17mm 1:2.8 Pancake Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 40-150mm 1:4-5.6 Olympus M.Zuiko Digital 14-42mm 1:3.5-5.6 II R +10 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads