The US won't have mirrorless? (Sans Mirror)

Started Mar 5, 2013 | Discussions
amalric
Forum ProPosts: 10,823
Like?
The US won't have mirrorless? (Sans Mirror)
Mar 5, 2013

An interesting take by T. Hogan:

http://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/ive-got-good-news-ive-got.html

"unit shipments to North America of mirrorless cameras were only 69% in 2013 what they were in 2012. As you might expect, Asia was the big winner with flat to slightly up volume depending upon which part of Asia, though surprisingly shipments to Europe were 98% compared to last year. Somewhere in Japan there are lot of executives trying to figure out why the Americans don't want mirrorless cameras. Hint:two of the primary players (Olympus and Panasonic) have poor dealer and Big Box reach in the US: buyers just don't see them like they do Canon and Nikon DSLRs. The third big mirrorless player (that would be Sony) does better in visibility, but it's still the third player in most stores. To paraphrase, uh excuse me, parody, a TV ad here for one of the mirrorless players "small is the new invisible."

LOL.

Am.

-- hide signature --
Hen3ry
Forum ProPosts: 10,968Gear list
Like?
Re: The US won't have mirrorless? (Sans Mirror)
In reply to amalric, Mar 5, 2013

And that would be right. It's all in the marketing.

Cheers, geoff

 Hen3ry's gear list:Hen3ry's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-G6 Olympus M.Zuiko Digital 45mm 1:1.8 Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 9-18mm 1:4.0-5.6 Panasonic Lumix G Vario 45-150mm F4-5.6 ASPH Mega OIS Panasonic 12-35mm F2.8 +4 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
secretworld
Senior MemberPosts: 1,080Gear list
Like?
Re: The US won't have mirrorless? (Sans Mirror)
In reply to Hen3ry, Mar 5, 2013

DP review is also very slow with reviewing m4/3. I think that is the main cause

 secretworld's gear list:secretworld's gear list
Olympus PEN E-PM2 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX7 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GM1 Panasonic Lumix G 20mm F1.7 ASPH Panasonic Lumix G Vario 14-45mm F3.5-5.6 ASPH OIS +5 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
JamieTux
Veteran MemberPosts: 3,821Gear list
Like?
Re: The US won't have mirrorless? (Sans Mirror)
In reply to amalric, Mar 5, 2013

I don't know what it's like in Italy but in the UK it was still very much like Thom's description of the US (at least until the 2 big chains stopped trading altogether).
Maybe it's the fact that we shop more online where retail marketing has less of an effect.  Who knows!

 JamieTux's gear list:JamieTux's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-GX7 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GF2 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH4 Panasonic Lumix G 14mm F2.5 ASPH Panasonic 20mm F1.7 II +12 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
amalric
Forum ProPosts: 10,823
Like?
Re: The US won't have mirrorless? (Sans Mirror)
In reply to secretworld, Mar 5, 2013

secretworld wrote:

DP review is also very slow with reviewing m4/3. I think that is the main cause

LOL. I think it's a chicken-egg problem. I remember a few years ago when Olympus disbanded Olympus America (marketing). This was happening even before m4/3.

OTH Americans like it big, so it might not only be poor distribution. Also, expect Asia to dictate the taste in cameras. Women, especially.

Not a macho world anymore, so perhaps American males take revenge

Am.

-- hide signature --
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
bunfoolio
Regular MemberPosts: 389
Like?
2 reasons
In reply to amalric, Mar 5, 2013

1)  Thom is right on the Marketing issue 100%

2)  Low information camera consumer.  How many times have you tried to explain the difference in sensor size of your camera and thier phone.  Lets not even complicate the issue with the diference between lenses.

amalric wrote:

An interesting take by T. Hogan:

http://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/ive-got-good-news-ive-got.html

"unit shipments to North America of mirrorless cameras were only 69% in 2013 what they were in 2012. As you might expect, Asia was the big winner with flat to slightly up volume depending upon which part of Asia, though surprisingly shipments to Europe were 98% compared to last year. Somewhere in Japan there are lot of executives trying to figure out why the Americans don't want mirrorless cameras. Hint:two of the primary players (Olympus and Panasonic) have poor dealer and Big Box reach in the US: buyers just don't see them like they do Canon and Nikon DSLRs. The third big mirrorless player (that would be Sony) does better in visibility, but it's still the third player in most stores. To paraphrase, uh excuse me, parody, a TV ad here for one of the mirrorless players "small is the new invisible."

LOL.

Am.

-- hide signature --
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Thomas Kachadurian
Veteran MemberPosts: 3,008Gear list
Like?
Old Japanese execs don't get the western market.
In reply to amalric, Mar 5, 2013

1. They are slow to ship here. You can't sell what isn't on the shelf.

2. They do not design for this market. We don't buy green and pink cameras. No viewfinder on the E-P5?

3. The pricing is inconsistent.

4. Too many models with too little difference.

5. Weird design choices, like putting 16x9 screens on 4/3 cameras.

If I, or ten other people I can think of, could get their ear I could tell they how to own the us market. But they won't listen to us, we are not old Japanese men steeped in tradition.

Tom

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Rriley
Forum ProPosts: 21,846Gear list
Like?
Re: The US won't have mirrorless? (Sans Mirror)
In reply to amalric, Mar 5, 2013

I think its to do with the psyche of the predominant buyer group, westernised males
Olympus had better stats with 43rds cameras in the US than they are with micro, likewise at that time Olympus offered two very similar models, the E420 and the E-520, which had IS. Naturally the IS equipped camera was larger.

Remember the ethos of mirrorless cameras is smaller equipment, yet the 520 outsold the 420. And its not as though they didn't especially market 420's small capability, they even offered it with the 25mm pancake, something they didnt do for any other body. They went to greater effort with 420 than 520, yet in the US at least it backfired.

I think the western, or lets face it, US male isnt that interested in 'small', and I also think this is why Sony offer both their pseudo SLR and mirrorless cameras, it just gives them more reach into the market place to have both.

With 43rds passed into latency Olympus faces just this problem, if they're in the business of selling cameras, sooner or later they have to realise they can only sell what people will buy.

-- hide signature --

Riley
any similarity to persons living or dead is coincidental and unintended
support 1022 Sunday Scapes'

 Rriley's gear list:Rriley's gear list
Sigma DP2 Merrill Canon EOS 5D Olympus E-3 Olympus E-5 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH2 +1 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Aleo Veuliah
Forum ProPosts: 14,495Gear list
Like?
Re: The US won't have mirrorless? (Sans Mirror)
In reply to amalric, Mar 5, 2013

Indeed it is interesting to analyze this, but it is all marketing strategies. Engineers should have more power on making the cameras, marketing is dominating to much.

Japaneses know well what the USA wants.


-- hide signature --

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.
Pure logic is the ruin of the spirit.
If plan A doesn't work, the alphabet has 25 more letters, keep calm.
Imagination is more important than knowledge.
God is the tangential point between zero and infinity.
Aleo Photo Site

 Aleo Veuliah's gear list:Aleo Veuliah's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-ZS1 Panasonic Lumix DMC-FZ1000 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GF1 Panasonic Lumix DMC-G2 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH4 +4 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Aleo Veuliah
Forum ProPosts: 14,495Gear list
Like?
Re: The US won't have mirrorless? (Sans Mirror)
In reply to amalric, Mar 5, 2013

amalric wrote:

secretworld wrote:

DP review is also very slow with reviewing m4/3. I think that is the main cause

LOL. I think it's a chicken-egg problem. I remember a few years ago when Olympus disbanded Olympus America (marketing). This was happening even before m4/3.

OTH Americans like it big, so it might not only be poor distribution. Also, expect Asia to dictate the taste in cameras. Women, especially.

Not a macho world anymore, so perhaps American males take revenge

Am.

-- hide signature --

-- hide signature --

Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication.
Pure logic is the ruin of the spirit.
If plan A doesn't work, the alphabet has 25 more letters, keep calm.
Imagination is more important than knowledge.
God is the tangential point between zero and infinity.
Aleo Photo Site

 Aleo Veuliah's gear list:Aleo Veuliah's gear list
Panasonic Lumix DMC-ZS1 Panasonic Lumix DMC-FZ1000 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GF1 Panasonic Lumix DMC-G2 Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH4 +4 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
mferencz
Regular MemberPosts: 233Gear list
Like?
Re: The US won't have mirrorless? (Sans Mirror)
In reply to amalric, Mar 5, 2013

First off, you need to place this in the right setting.  Cameras are not selling for the most part, outside what comes along with your cell phone.  For the average user the dslr has saturated the world, only fools like us that come on to websites like this are truly interested in what minor upgrade camera makers inch along year after year.  Add in a bit of sour world economy and what do you get?  Flat or negligable sales numbers, especially for a new product (mirrorless) which still is very similar to a traditional DSLR.  No bad magic, no marketing slip ups.  Momentum in marketing can take a long time to develop.  The nice thing is that everybody knows that mirroless in ineveitable, it's just the bumpy ride makes us want to turn back once and awhile.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
vin 13
Senior MemberPosts: 1,388Gear list
Like?
Re: Old Japanese execs don't get the western market.
In reply to Thomas Kachadurian, Mar 5, 2013

Thomas Kachadurian wrote:

1. They are slow to ship here. You can't sell what isn't on the shelf.

2. They do not design for this market. We don't buy green and pink cameras. No viewfinder on the E-P5?

3. The pricing is inconsistent.

4. Too many models with too little difference.

5. Weird design choices, like putting 16x9 screens on 4/3 cameras.

If I, or ten other people I can think of, could get their ear I could tell they how to own the us market. But they won't listen to us, we are not old Japanese men steeped in tradition.

Tom

Some of that applies in Europe too, we're not old Japanese men either.  Yet according to the original post, sales here are still similar to last year.  I wonder if that wasn't a huge chunk to begin with.  From what I see entry-level Canon and Nikon DSLRs with kit lenses are still the most popular cameras that aren't also phones.

In fairness, both panasonic, olympus and sony advertised heavily on UK TV just before Christmas, almost as much as Canon and Nikon.  Also they're reasonably prominent in stores, though Canon/Nikon are more so.  Perhaps most people just aren't interested.  I'm not sure if any amount of advertising in the world can change that.

 vin 13's gear list:vin 13's gear list
Canon EOS 5D Canon EOS-1Ds Mark II Canon EOS 350D Olympus OM-D E-M5 Canon EOS 6D +12 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Jon Ragnarsson
Veteran MemberPosts: 5,267Gear list
Like?
Re: The US won't have mirrorless? (Sans Mirror)
In reply to amalric, Mar 5, 2013

Well, from my limited personal experience, trying to buy the 45mm lens in Orlando, m43 hardly exists... plenty of NEXes everywhere, though. I don't know if to blame Panasonic/Olympus marketing or something else.

-- hide signature --
 Jon Ragnarsson's gear list:Jon Ragnarsson's gear list
Olympus M.Zuiko Digital 45mm 1:1.8
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Eamon Hickey
Veteran MemberPosts: 3,170
Like?
January -- i.e. one month -- only
In reply to amalric, Mar 5, 2013

amalric wrote:

An interesting take by T. Hogan:

http://www.sansmirror.com/newsviews/ive-got-good-news-ive-got.html

"unit shipments to North America of mirrorless cameras were only 69% in 2013 what they were in 2012.

As Mr. Hogan states in that post (but not very clearly), he is comparing unit shipments from the manufacturers' factories -- which, please note, is not the same as sales to end users -- in January 2012 to the same number for January 2013. In other words, it's figures for only one month, year-over-year.

No real conclusions to be reached from that.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Eamon Hickey
Veteran MemberPosts: 3,170
Like?
they have sources of information
In reply to Thomas Kachadurian, Mar 5, 2013

Thomas Kachadurian wrote:

If I, or ten other people I can think of, could get their ear I could tell they how to own the us market.

All of the camera companies employ hundreds of Americans in their U.S. sales subsidiaries, many of whom have decades of deep insider experience in the U.S. camera business. Most companies call their foreign sales teams back to Japan for market consultations quarterly, or at least bi-annually.

So they have plenty of sources of knowledgeable input about the U.S. camera market. It's very true that that input is not always intelligently heard. Maybe that's what you meant, and I don't disagree that many times that is true.

And obviously, the same basic sales/marketing intelligence network in in place in all other major markets -- i.e. native-born and bred executives from the UK, German, French etc. sales subsidiaries are, in theory, supposed to be giving close advise about what those markets want and how they should be addressed.

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
tedolf
Forum ProPosts: 18,009Gear list
Like?
I wonder.........
In reply to amalric, Mar 5, 2013

amalric wrote:

secretworld wrote:

DP review is also very slow with reviewing m4/3. I think that is the main cause

LOL. I think it's a chicken-egg problem. I remember a few years ago when Olympus disbanded Olympus America (marketing). This was happening even before m4/3.

OTH Americans like it big, so it might not only be poor distribution. Also, expect Asia to dictate the taste in cameras. Women, especially.

Not a macho world anymore, so perhaps American males take revenge

Am.

-- hide signature --

I have been thinking about something related recently and this dovetails in nicely.

I wanted to start  a thread about it but I am sure it would get deleted.

I think Americans are lazy....

lazy photogaphers that is.  Most dSLRs sold in the U.S. are the bottom entry level models. They are essentially very high performing point n shoot cameras perfect for soccer moms to take pictures of little Johnny and Suzy playing soccer.

Micro 4/3 cameras are not really great point n shoot action cameras.  No doubt they can get these shots but it takes some knowledge and patience to do that.  Soccer mom's can't be bothered.  In Japan, and to some degree Europe I think amatures take some pride in being "photographers" so u 4/3 works well for them.  Americans just want to point and push the button and get a good shot.

I remember a recent thread where one poster stated with pride that he was not a "photographer", just a "documenter"!

Recent threads from new OM-d owners bare this out.  One guy had the camera for a week and couldn't figure out how to get the focus box up off the bottom of the screen!

A lady took 1000 photo's and posted her three best-they were horrible, technically and compositionally and showed a total lack of basic photographic skills.  Her last camera? Canon Rebel.

We have seen thread after thread of new OM-d owners posting just horrible photographs with no conception or effort in composition at all.

Why now?

Because the OM-d is attracting U.S. bottom level dLSR owners like no PEN has ever done.

So I think the U.S. is going to be a tough sell for u 4/3 unless they PDAF tracking AF a la Nikon 1.

Tedolph

 tedolf's gear list:tedolf's gear list
Olympus PEN E-P5 Olympus M.Zuiko Digital 17mm 1:2.8 Pancake Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 9-18mm 1:4.0-5.6 Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 40-150mm 1:4-5.6 Samyang 7.5mm F3.5 UMC Fisheye MFT +9 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
wolfeel
Regular MemberPosts: 204Gear list
Like?
Re: I wonder.........
In reply to tedolf, Mar 5, 2013

tedolf wrote:

amalric wrote:

secretworld wrote:

DP review is also very slow with reviewing m4/3. I think that is the main cause

LOL. I think it's a chicken-egg problem. I remember a few years ago when Olympus disbanded Olympus America (marketing). This was happening even before m4/3.

OTH Americans like it big, so it might not only be poor distribution. Also, expect Asia to dictate the taste in cameras. Women, especially.

Not a macho world anymore, so perhaps American males take revenge

Am.

-- hide signature --

I have been thinking about something related recently and this dovetails in nicely.

I wanted to start a thread about it but I am sure it would get deleted.

I think Americans are lazy....

lazy photogaphers that is. Most dSLRs sold in the U.S. are the bottom entry level models. They are essentially very high performing point n shoot cameras perfect for soccer moms to take pictures of little Johnny and Suzy playing soccer.

Micro 4/3 cameras are not really great point n shoot action cameras. No doubt they can get these shots but it takes some knowledge and patience to do that. Soccer mom's can't be bothered. In Japan, and to some degree Europe I think amatures take some pride in being "photographers" so u 4/3 works well for them. Americans just want to point and push the button and get a good shot.

I remember a recent thread where one poster stated with pride that he was not a "photographer", just a "documenter"!

Recent threads from new OM-d owners bare this out. One guy had the camera for a week and couldn't figure out how to get the focus box up off the bottom of the screen!

A lady took 1000 photo's and posted her three best-they were horrible, technically and compositionally and showed a total lack of basic photographic skills. Her last camera? Canon Rebel.

We have seen thread after thread of new OM-d owners posting just horrible photographs with no conception or effort in composition at all.

Why now?

Because the OM-d is attracting U.S. bottom level dLSR owners like no PEN has ever done.

So I think the U.S. is going to be a tough sell for u 4/3 unless they PDAF tracking AF a la Nikon 1.

Tedolph

I'm not convinced that it's as you put it "laziness". I think in general, Americans tend to prefer bigger things. Bigger cars, bigger homes, oversized jewelery etc. Throw in the anemic economic recovery and the m4/3 will have a hard time capturing that market. GH3 with it's larger size might be more appealing to the American buyer than PEN or GX cameras. Lastly like somebody else pointed out, mainstream consumers have pretty much traded in dedicated cameras for their smart phones and the ability to instantly share their snaps via social media.

 wolfeel's gear list:wolfeel's gear list
Olympus OM-D E-M5 Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 40-150mm 1:4-5.6 R Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 12-50mm 1:3.5-6.3 EZ Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 60mm 1:2.8 Macro
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
hutu
Contributing MemberPosts: 640
Like?
Re: I wonder.........
In reply to wolfeel, Mar 5, 2013

Agree.  Plus

Backpackers, bikers, bus/train riders care for smaller sizes, drivers not so much.  Most Americans drive to places ...

Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Trevor Carpenter
Veteran MemberPosts: 9,730
Like?
Re: I wonder.........
In reply to tedolf, Mar 5, 2013

tedolf wrote:

I think Americans are lazy....

lazy photogaphers that is. Most dSLRs sold in the U.S. are the bottom entry level models. They are essentially very high performing point n shoot cameras perfect for soccer moms to take pictures of little Johnny and Suzy playing soccer.

Micro 4/3 cameras are not really great point n shoot action cameras. No doubt they can get these shots but it takes some knowledge and patience to do that. Soccer mom's can't be bothered. In Japan, and to some degree Europe I think amatures take some pride in being "photographers" so u 4/3 works well for them. Americans just want to point and push the button and get a good shot.

I remember a recent thread where one poster stated with pride that he was not a "photographer", just a "documenter"!

Recent threads from new OM-d owners bare this out. One guy had the camera for a week and couldn't figure out how to get the focus box up off the bottom of the screen!

A lady took 1000 photo's and posted her three best-they were horrible, technically and compositionally and showed a total lack of basic photographic skills. Her last camera? Canon Rebel.

We have seen thread after thread of new OM-d owners posting just horrible photographs with no conception or effort in composition at all.

Why now?

Because the OM-d is attracting U.S. bottom level dLSR owners like no PEN has ever done.

So I think the U.S. is going to be a tough sell for u 4/3 unless they PDAF tracking AF a la Nikon 1.

Tedolph

You do talk an awful lot of sense at time but sweeping statements like Americans are lazy is very provocative and I wouldn't be surprised if you get some retaliation.

Where I would agree with you is that the quality of some of the E-M5 pictures posted on this forum has been very poor.  That's not IQ which seems to be extremely good just the photograpic qualities. I have on several occasions wanted to say, why did you post that it's just not very good.  I have no idea why this is but it does appear to me that this is an almost professional camera in the hands of people who would never have bought a DSLR that required thensame levelof nurtuiring.

Before I am accused of my own sweeping statements, let me say that there have been some excellent EM-5 shots posted but there does seem to have been a greater level than usual number of shots that nobody would post on an internet forum unless they were specifically asking for constructive criticism.

-- hide signature --
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Vlad S
Senior MemberPosts: 3,119Gear list
Like?
An artificially created problem, or ineptitude?
In reply to amalric, Mar 5, 2013

amalric wrote:

Somewhere in Japan there are lot of executives trying to figure out why the Americans don't want mirrorless cameras. Hint:two of the primary players (Olympus and Panasonic) have poor dealer and Big Box reach in the US: buyers just don't see them like they do Canon and Nikon DSLRs.

We in the US wait for months for the stock to appear. If they can't sell the cameras here it's because we don't receive any in time when the public is actually interested in them. When the cameras become finally available six months after the release the momentum is totally lost.

Some advertising would help too.

Vlad

 Vlad S's gear list:Vlad S's gear list
Olympus OM-D E-M5 Panasonic Lumix G Vario 14-45mm F3.5-5.6 ASPH OIS Panasonic Lumix G Vario 100-300mm F4-5.6 OIS Panasonic Lumix G 20mm F1.7 ASPH Olympus M.Zuiko Digital ED 9-18mm 1:4.0-5.6 +2 more
Reply   Reply with quote   Complain
Keyboard shortcuts:
FForum MMy threads