D600, 6D at ISO6400

Started Mar 4, 2013 | Discussions
roustabout66
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Re: D600, 6D at ISO6400
In reply to aftab, Mar 4, 2013

To me the biggest difference is in the color. The Nikon shots seem to clearly have a green cast. I suppose that could be changed in post, but it is interesting none the less.

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Ben_Egbert
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Re: D600, 6D at ISO6400
In reply to aftab, Mar 4, 2013

Anytime you do a test, you will get comments about test methods, exposure focus etc. Just part of the game we play here.

But your samples show what we already know, fine art is not going to happen at ISO6400. Its for spy work, or astrophotography or record shots that could not be done at lower ISO.

You can clean out all of the noise and it will look like it was shot at much lower resolution. All the ISO improvements over the last few years have made it possible to get a pretty decent ISO400 shot if you are printing your work.

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mskad
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Question is: how is the cat doing?
In reply to aftab, Mar 4, 2013

According to time on EXIF data, it didn't move a bit for 13 hours!

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rhlpetrus
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Re: HAve you FTuned lenses
In reply to aftab, Mar 4, 2013

aftab wrote:


No, I didn't check the finetuning as the lens seemed to focus fine before, but I surely will check.

FT or MA will correct only very minor front or backfocusing. In the case of the D600 it's probably backfocusing slightly, something you can only see if you comapre to a correctly focused image. To test it, it's simple, just  use LV contrast AF, which usually gives very accurate AF, and regular AF on the same subject, MLU and tripod (and shutter delay or remote, to avoid camera shake).

BTW, did you use MLU and tripod on these?

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aftab
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Re: Exposure seems slightly different despite settings
In reply to GregF, Mar 5, 2013

GregF wrote:

The 6D shots, especially the first two, seem slightly more exposed to my eye, which helps a bit with noise. This tells me the actual ISO values for each camera are slightly off (normal as shown in plenty of tests).

These two camera are close enough that RAW images could be made, more or less, to be nearly equivalent.

The 6D JPEG engine does a better job of NR (a bit heavy handed on some low contrast detail IMHO) than Nikon's. Even the "standard" setting in the D600 defers to allow ample noise as not to smudge detail. And if you go above ISO6400 the 6D is definitely better.

Yeah, stated ISO usually is not the real ISO, this practice is pretty common. But I am not sure that it is helping 6D here as far as the noise goes. Real 6D ISO seems to be higher than D600 ISO, so it should have more noise, not less. In any case, the difference in minimal.

I agree with you about JPEG, Canon does more NR and depending on scene/subject this can be a good or bad thing. Here is a default JPEG from both cameras taken from above sample.



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aftab
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Re: D600, 6D at ISO6400
In reply to roustabout66, Mar 5, 2013

roustabout66 wrote:

To me the biggest difference is in the color. The Nikon shots seem to clearly have a green cast. I suppose that could be changed in post, but it is interesting none the less.

Yeah, green cast is there and it can be corrected in the post.

I wonder if this is because Nikon wants to please the landscape photographers by making greens look greener.

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aftab
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Re: D600, 6D at ISO6400
In reply to Ben_Egbert, Mar 5, 2013

Ben_Egbert wrote:

Anytime you do a test, you will get comments about test methods, exposure focus etc. Just part of the game we play here.

I know Ben, I know the rules.

I am a doctor. There are doctors who follow 'protocols' to the letter. I follow them to the spirit. Here I tried to to show the noise at ISO6400, I wanted to show the amount of noise irrespective of the detail, so I did what I thought was important in this respect. I didn't mention that I used tripod and I took the shots within a minute of each other and crops were from where I focused, I should have.

But your samples show what we already know, fine art is not going to happen at ISO6400. Its for spy work, or astrophotography or record shots that could not be done at lower ISO.

You can clean out all of the noise and it will look like it was shot at much lower resolution. All the ISO improvements over the last few years have made it possible to get a pretty decent ISO400 shot if you are printing your work.

I will have to agree with you. We have made some progress with respect noise, but not really significant. If we can make ISO 6400 as clean as ISO400 we would be talking.

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aftab
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Re: Question is: how is the cat doing?
In reply to mskad, Mar 5, 2013

mskad wrote:

According to time on EXIF data, it didn't move a bit for 13 hours!

Haha, she is a very obedient model.

I though I set the times right, obviously I didn't.

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aftab
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Re: HAve you FTuned lenses
In reply to rhlpetrus, Mar 5, 2013

rhlpetrus wrote:

aftab wrote:


No, I didn't check the finetuning as the lens seemed to focus fine before, but I surely will check.

FT or MA will correct only very minor front or backfocusing. In the case of the D600 it's probably backfocusing slightly, something you can only see if you comapre to a correctly focused image. To test it, it's simple, just use LV contrast AF, which usually gives very accurate AF, and regular AF on the same subject, MLU and tripod (and shutter delay or remote, to avoid camera shake).

BTW, did you use MLU and tripod on these?

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I used tripod, but not MLU.

I used LV after reading your post and it seems that D600 focus was slightly off with 14-24/2.8.

Thanks.

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aftab
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Re: D600, 6D at ISO6400
In reply to adam1612, Mar 5, 2013

adam1612 wrote:

In imaging-resource.com test details in red color fabric look much better in Nikon images than in Canon. Could you check in your test?

I tried a red towel in tungsten light. Have a look and you decide. No camera captured red properly in this condition. The pink (top towel) was reasonably okay. And noise? Hard to tell. Used tripod (not MLU) and LV for focusing.



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clarnibass
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Re: D600, 6D at ISO6400
In reply to aftab, Mar 5, 2013

Thanks, I now see that I did miss it in the middle of your first post.

I also compared the D600 and 6D. I found the 6D was approx 1/3 a stop better from ISO 3200 or maybe 6400 and approx 1/3-1/2 better from ISO 12800. This is when shot RAW, no NR and resizing D600 to match 6D. At least for luminance noise, since colour noise seems pretty much idential or a fraction better on the D600 (but also more easily improved in software).

Some things interesting in your photos are that the focus is different, seems to be (significantly) worse on the D600. This is why the most focused area looks better on the 6D, plus it looks less noisy.

What I found is that in my comparison, the D600 was slightly noisier but had more details in the photo. It was possible to use a bit more NR and pretty much match the 6D (i.e. less noise and less detail).

It's possible that the lenses made some difference, the Canon 24-70II is supposed to be on of the sharpest zoom lenses (or even including some primes). Although the Nikon 24-85 is pretty good, it's not as good. The Nikon 14-24 is also supposed to be one of the sharpest zoom lenses and possibly similar to the 24-70II, but focus seems worst in that photo. However if that made any difference in detail it's probably a small one (the 24-85 difference could be bigger). I still think most of the detail difference is from the different focus and not the lenses. With more "matching" photos I think the D600 would have slightly more detail that could be matched for noise (more or less).

Anyway, I agree that the difference is very small, but from your test I prefer the 6D. I chose a D600 over 6D and overall prefer it, but I wouldn't mind using a 6D, either would probably be just fine for me.

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brightcolours
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Re: Exposure seems slightly different despite settings
In reply to GregF, Mar 5, 2013

GregF wrote:

The 6D shots, especially the first two, seem slightly more exposed to my eye, which helps a bit with noise. This tells me the actual ISO values for each camera are slightly off (normal as shown in plenty of tests).

ISO does not work that way, there is no such thing as a "correct" ISO. Manufacturers have quite a freedom in setting "ISO", read up about it.

Further, lenses themselves play a role in exposure. The f-value says nothing about the T-value.

These two camera are close enough that RAW images could be made, more or less, to be nearly equivalent.

The 6D JPEG engine does a better job of NR (a bit heavy handed on some low contrast detail IMHO) than Nikon's. Even the "standard" setting in the D600 defers to allow ample noise as not to smudge detail. And if you go above ISO6400 the 6D is definitely better.

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TORN
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Re: D600, 6D at ISO6400
In reply to aftab, Mar 5, 2013

So ISO 6400 is perfectly usable on both, but to me Canon keeps better colors. I would pretty much like to see 12800 though. This is where at least the 6D and the D800 seem to go different ways and it would be great to have a good example for the D600 as well.

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ZAnton
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Thanks, That is interesting, also White Balance are a bit different
In reply to aftab, Mar 5, 2013

in the low light there are much less blue colors, so if you shift WB to colder colors, more noise is visible. And all your D600 photos are "colder".

But anyway, the difference is extremely small. Considering immence difference of DR at low ISO, I would still choose D600.

Also I got D600 500 Euro cheaper than 6D at that time.

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schmegg
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Re: Thanks, That is interesting, also White Balance are a bit different
In reply to ZAnton, Mar 5, 2013

ZAnton wrote:

in the low light there are much less blue colors, so if you shift WB to colder colors, more noise is visible. And all your D600 photos are "colder".

But anyway, the difference is extremely small. Considering immence difference of DR at low ISO, I would still choose D600.

Also I got D600 500 Euro cheaper than 6D at that time.

Nikon are indeed extremely fortunate that there are people such as you about. Otherwise, going on their quality control, they'd be in real trouble. Hehe.

Seriously though - they are both great cameras. But there is no way I'd choose a body with known issues. I've got better things to do than deal with camera issues. If, however, I was already invested in the Nikon system, then I'd probably wear the hassles and stick with them. But I wouldn't be happy - and it seems quite a few are not.

You are an exception, of course.

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Noogy
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Re: D600, 6D at ISO6400
In reply to aftab, Mar 5, 2013

Thank you for sharing the results of your test.  It affirms the capabilities of both the 6D and the D600.  I find the lowlight performance of both cameras almost identical.  There's a bit of difference on how they render colors but most of us already know that.

Have you tried doing a video test as well?  If you have, please share too, and thanks in advance

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tko
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5D at ISO 10,000
In reply to aftab, Mar 5, 2013

Yes, this photo has NR applied, but sometimes what's important is how the noisy image responds to a touch of NR. Exposure, and the nature of the scene also make a big difference. Noise is hidden in a wood texture, show up in a blue sky. I'm not saying one camera is better than another, but sometimes a high ISO shot turns out to be quite usable

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jonrobertp
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Re: D600, 6D at ISO6400
In reply to adam1612, Mar 5, 2013

adam1612 wrote:

In imaging-resource.com test details in red color fabric look much better in Nikon images than in Canon. Could you check in your test?

Yes, that is a canon weakness.  hi iso reds.   Otherwise I agree w the OP.

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jonrobertp
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Re: 5D at ISO 10,000
In reply to tko, Mar 5, 2013

OP...thanks a lot...looks pretty much unbiased. I'm looking at the D7100 vs the very soon Canon 70D...and now I  am moving closer again to the Canon offering.  Sure, both are good.  (shooting D7K right now...moved from Canon 2.5 yrs ago...sigh...lol.)

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pipee
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Re: 5D at ISO 10,000
In reply to jonrobertp, Mar 5, 2013

Noise: The 6D photos are exposed brighter which explains the lower noise. Canon has been known to apply noise reduction to raw files in the past, not sure if it is still the case.

Sharpness: The D600 photos are backfocused which explains the softness. The lens as well.

Colour: Nikon has more green tint and canon has more magenta tint. It's the same for all cameras and can be finetuned.

EDIT: the second test you did where you use LV for focusing is much better!

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