Samsung could kill the competition in 2013

Started Mar 2, 2013 | Discussions
Ariston
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Re: Samsung kills no one
In reply to Jorginho, Mar 5, 2013

Jorginho wrote:

If I am correct they have shown what they are made of at least to my mind, with giving the NX300 no EVF again. No, they give it ANDROID. Many photogs did not chose Samsung because they said it was not a photocam company. In my view, this has proven to be correct. Because what is lacking are things that have everything to do with the photographic department of the camera's:

- No EVF for the NX-xxx/xxxx series. NX300 seems to lack one, like I said...
- Poor JPEGs
- The extremely huge file thing and subsequent lock ups or at least very long waiting before you can shoot again
- NO IBIS but introducing kitlenses that do not have OIS either (a minor quibble may be)
- Virtually no possibility to mount lenses via an adapter (look at Sony and also m43 cams!)

well I think that most of the excuses are all bull or just a poor way of making an excuse not to buy the camera. it has to do more with unfamiliarity with the system rather than having to actually used the system.

the obvious reasons for this is:

1.> Samsung is not the only brand that doesn't offer EVF in some of their camera models. although the NX300 is rumored to have a support for EVF option.

2.> valid case although it is not the only camera that has poor jpegs. but certainly something that needed improvement.

3.> huge file thing is already non-existent. it's already around the 20MB which is pretty much the standard for such camera. lockups so far doesn't look to be present on the videos that I have seen posted here.

4.> No IBIS, again Samsung is not the only camera maker that doesn't have IBIS nor is it a real issue.

all the excuses that are being said are pretty much the same excuses that people are saying with other brands. it is not because the system is bad, but rather people are not aware of it.

On the photographic side to my mind there is nothing that sets Samsung cams apart. Also, the videodepartment is not too good either.

I just have to wonder how many camera owners with video option on the camera actually use the video mode atleast 10% of the time. I rarely use mine even for family events (I shoot stills more than I shoot videos) and I only use it if there's no camcorder available.

although you might be right that Samsung might not be that different with other camera makers for most people but the image quality and colors do impress me personally. but having said that, aren't they the first to offer a mirrorless APS-C compact with really nice compact lenses?

Nikon, Sony, Panasonic and Olympus all have their USPs. I simply can't see them in Samsung. If they revolutionise their productline for photographers, that would be very welcome and a good step in the right direction. But with this trackrecord, it is certainly not enough to convince masses to buy a Samsung mirrorless. I think the best papers are for Nikon, Canon and behind them Sony and Olympus. Panasonic is not really doing enough lately in my view. Like Samsung, they are at a disadvantage everstill because they are less considered to be a photocam company.

as I mentioned in one post, I'd rather want to see Samsung doesn't rule the camera market nor become too popular as this would affect the affordability of the system. one of the attractive things about the NX system. it is an amazing system that is still unknown, atleast in North America.

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tecnoworld
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Re: Samsung kills no one
In reply to Ariston, Mar 5, 2013

I totally agree with your last sentence  after all my wish is tgat nx line can continue and evolve in time, since I invested in it, but at the same time I hope it diesn't get too much recognized as a great alternative to other systems (like nex), so that nx cameras can continue to be much cheaper than those, after a couple of months they are on the market

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Mr.NoFlash
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I have the same opinion but for much different reasons Re: Samsung kills no one
In reply to Jorginho, Mar 5, 2013

I have the same opinion but for much different reasons:

1. I do not like the word "kill", its a much exxagerated word. Especially Samsung will gain some percentage of market share and that is the good for us and samsung but thats it, no one will be killed.

2. One problem Samsung NX really has is Non-TTL-High-Sync-Speed Flash.

but all what you write are minor problems, and I have some real advantages of NX ( scroll down )

Jorginho wrote:

- No EVF for the NX-xxx/xxxx series. NX300 seems to lack one, like I said...

But for the NX-xx series. That is ok. A Nx-30 will apear

- Poor JPEGs

Yes that is a minor problem, but every system has problems.

- The extremely huge file thing and subsequent lock ups or at least very long waiting before you can shoot again

I think on this year's NX cameras thuis is solved

- NO IBIS but introducing kitlenses that do not have OIS either (a minor quibble may be)

I looked at the market. Unfortionately on mirrorless only m43 has IBIS. So this is not an advantage for any other APS mirrorless brand.

- Virtually no possibility to mount lenses via an adapter (look at Sony and also m43 cams!)

I have at home a Fourthirds-to-samsung-nx adapter

On the photographic side to my mind there is nothing that sets Samsung cams apart.

I can tell you some advantages of NX:

* Opposed to Sony, the NX-xx cameras are REAL CAMERAS and look like real cameras and can be used like real cameras.

* Opposed to Fuji, Samsung is in the sum as good but for the half price.

* The Samsung 85mm 1.4 is THE LENS, the LENS, THE IDEAL LENS for people photography. No other mirrorless brand has this.

* For me, I like 3D, so I like that the system has a real ( hardware based ) option for 3D with the new 45 lens.

Also, the videodepartment is not too good either.

Nikon, Sony, Panasonic and Olympus all have their USPs. I simply can't see them in Samsung. If they revolutionise their productline for photographers, that would be very welcome and a good step in the right direction. But with this trackrecord, it is certainly not enough to convince masses to buy a Samsung mirrorless. I think the best papers are for Nikon, Canon and behind them Sony and Olympus. Panasonic is not really doing enough lately in my view. Like Samsung, they are at a disadvantage everstill because they are less considered to be a photocam company.

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Mr.NoFlash

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Ariston
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Re: I have the same opinion but for much different reasons Re: Samsung kills no one
In reply to Mr.NoFlash, Mar 5, 2013

Mr.NoFlash wrote:

I have the same opinion but for much different reasons:

1. I do not like the word "kill", its a much exxagerated word. Especially Samsung will gain some percentage of market share and that is the good for us and samsung but thats it, no one will be killed.

2. One problem Samsung NX really has is Non-TTL-High-Sync-Speed Flash.

but all what you write are minor problems, and I have some real advantages of NX ( scroll down )

Jorginho wrote:

- No EVF for the NX-xxx/xxxx series. NX300 seems to lack one, like I said...

But for the NX-xx series. That is ok. A Nx-30 will apear

- Poor JPEGs

Yes that is a minor problem, but every system has problems.

- The extremely huge file thing and subsequent lock ups or at least very long waiting before you can shoot again

I think on this year's NX cameras thuis is solved

- NO IBIS but introducing kitlenses that do not have OIS either (a minor quibble may be)

I looked at the market. Unfortionately on mirrorless only m43 has IBIS. So this is not an advantage for any other APS mirrorless brand.

- Virtually no possibility to mount lenses via an adapter (look at Sony and also m43 cams!)

I have at home a Fourthirds-to-samsung-nx adapter

On the photographic side to my mind there is nothing that sets Samsung cams apart.

I can tell you some advantages of NX:

* Opposed to Sony, the NX-xx cameras are REAL CAMERAS and look like real cameras and can be used like real cameras.

* Opposed to Fuji, Samsung is in the sum as good but for the half price.

* The Samsung 85mm 1.4 is THE LENS, the LENS, THE IDEAL LENS for people photography. No other mirrorless brand has this.

* For me, I like 3D, so I like that the system has a real ( hardware based ) option for 3D with the new 45 lens.

Also, the videodepartment is not too good either.

Nikon, Sony, Panasonic and Olympus all have their USPs. I simply can't see them in Samsung. If they revolutionise their productline for photographers, that would be very welcome and a good step in the right direction. But with this trackrecord, it is certainly not enough to convince masses to buy a Samsung mirrorless. I think the best papers are for Nikon, Canon and behind them Sony and Olympus. Panasonic is not really doing enough lately in my view. Like Samsung, they are at a disadvantage everstill because they are less considered to be a photocam company.

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cheers
Mr.NoFlash

Thank You. if there was one real weakness that the NX has, that would be the dedicated flash system and HSS support.

I forgot to argue about the NX not being capable of mounting other lenses via adapter. I'm not sure where that notion came from but it is definitely inaccurate as you could virtually mount all lenses via adapter except for M type mounts which was the only gripe I have for the NX. would have been great if I was able to do so with my Leica M glasses. on the otherhand, I think it is possible but you have to convert and dedicate the camera mount exclusively for M lenses, if one would want it that way.

having said that, I think Samsung's intent here is to promote their own lenses rather than having third party lenses into their system. the NX lenses are very good and I see no point of really accepting third party especially at this early stage of the system. and it would be the prerogative of the 3rd party lens manufacturer if they want to support the NX system. so far, I think Samyang did so. the NX line is pretty crowded right now at the suggested size and focal length use for the camera and I couldn't see the need for those unless Samsung releases a bigger body to accommodate the idea of having heavier and longer zooms or macros. if there were focal lengths that might be worth looking at for 3rd party lenses, that would be on the long telephoto end, such as a 100mm,135mm and 300mm. other than those, the NX pretty much covered all it's bases.

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Jorginho
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Re: Samsung kills no one
In reply to Ariston, Mar 5, 2013

Ariston wrote:

Jorginho wrote:

If I am correct they have shown what they are made of at least to my mind, with giving the NX300 no EVF again. No, they give it ANDROID. Many photogs did not chose Samsung because they said it was not a photocam company. In my view, this has proven to be correct. Because what is lacking are things that have everything to do with the photographic department of the camera's:

- No EVF for the NX-xxx/xxxx series. NX300 seems to lack one, like I said...
- Poor JPEGs
- The extremely huge file thing and subsequent lock ups or at least very long waiting before you can shoot again
- NO IBIS but introducing kitlenses that do not have OIS either (a minor quibble may be)
- Virtually no possibility to mount lenses via an adapter (look at Sony and also m43 cams!)

well I think that most of the excuses are all bull or just a poor way of making an excuse not to buy the camera. it has to do more with unfamiliarity with the system rather than having to actually used the system.

the obvious reasons for this is:

1.> Samsung is not the only brand that doesn't offer EVF in some of their camera models. although the NX300 is rumored to have a support for EVF option.

Olympus, Panasonic, Sony and Nikon do have similar models in a similar market 300-500 dollars with that option.

2.> valid case although it is not the only camera that has poor jpegs. but certainly something that needed improvement.

The problem is that Nikon and Olympus especially are renowned for it and they already have more things going for them. Panasonics JPEGs are getting much better also it seems (Idon't hve an experience with the GH3 tjough).

3.> huge file thing is already non-existent. it's already around the 20MB which is pretty much the standard for such camera. lockups so far doesn't look to be present on the videos that I have seen posted here.

It was not. The point to me is that it was real, it was real problem and yet they came out with it and were critisised for it.

4.> No IBIS, again Samsung is not the only camera maker that doesn't have IBIS nor is it a real issue.

Combo with a itlens that has none either. Not having IBIS is not a problem per se of course.

all the excuses that are being said are pretty much the same excuses that people are saying with other brands. it is not because the system is bad, but rather people are not aware of it.

We can differ on that, but I am not saying the system is bad. The choicemaking in some critical apsects, at least form what I have heared of those others, has not been in their favour.

On the photographic side to my mind there is nothing that sets Samsung cams apart. Also, the videodepartment is not too good either.

I just have to wonder how many camera owners with video option on the camera actually use the video mode atleast 10% of the time. I rarely use mine even for family events (I shoot stills more than I shoot videos) and I only use it if there's no camcorder available.

I think you are right, but it is thing that gives Panasonic quite some attention.

although you might be right that Samsung might not be that different with other camera makers for most people but the image quality and colors do impress me personally. but having said that, aren't they the first to offer a mirrorless APS-C compact with really nice compact lenses?

APS-c is a distinction you have to make to make that point and I think it is a valid one. The lenses are very good. I also do think that th masses do not care too much about the m43 APS-c sensorsize difference. And Oly and Panny do offer very good lenses that are smaller, sgnificantly in cases.

Nikon, Sony, Panasonic and Olympus all have their USPs. I simply can't see them in Samsung. If they revolutionise their productline for photographers, that would be very welcome and a good step in the right direction. But with this trackrecord, it is certainly not enough to convince masses to buy a Samsung mirrorless. I think the best papers are for Nikon, Canon and behind them Sony and Olympus. Panasonic is not really doing enough lately in my view. Like Samsung, they are at a disadvantage everstill because they are less considered to be a photocam company.

as I mentioned in one post, I'd rather want to see Samsung doesn't rule the camera market nor become too popular as this would affect the affordability of the system. one of the attractive things about the NX system. it is an amazing system that is still unknown, atleast in North America.

True and we should want all brands to have succes and to survive, it is in our favour.

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tecnoworld
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Re: I have the same opinion but for much different reasons Re: Samsung kills no one
In reply to Mr.NoFlash, Mar 5, 2013

Sorry for the word "kill". It was the emphatic version of "overcome". And I think that, technically speaking, the next gen of nx cameras has all the right cards to do that. Faster focus, faster processing, focus peaking for legacy lenses, smaller raw files, touch and tiltable screen. If just samsung improves the jpg engine and, above all, high iso rendition, it will be difficult, for me, to find any more flaws in the camera. And, imho (since I love fast primes and usually dislike zooms) the lens lineup is just great.

The price for the nx300 is too high, I agree on that, but I'm also sure it'll be under 500€ (a "right" price for it) before summer.

In the meantime, we'll see if/what Samsung can deliver with nx1100, nx30 and possibly nx-r (which I think will feature a new aps-c sensor rather than a ff one).

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johnznyc
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Re: Samsung could kill the competition in 2013
In reply to paulhome, Mar 5, 2013

paulhome wrote:

tecnoworld wrote:

I just read that, along with nx300 availability in march, there could be the presentation of nx1100, nx30 and nx-r. If so, and especially if Samsung addressed the problems with performance and the partial issue of high iso noise (perhaps with a totally new sensor for the nx-r, which imho won't be ff, but just a high quality aps-c), then it could cover all the segments in the mirrorless market and win in them all, thanks to the great lense lineup.

What do you think?

not really.

I love my samsung, but the lens line up is nice rather than great, good lenses at good prices. I do agree that the nx-r wont be ff, just a case of wishful thinking.

until there are more third party lenses and better flash options Samsung will always be the oddball choice

Patience is a virtue...  The system has not been on the market for that long.  Plus, you can get the K-mount lens adaptor if you are willing to forego autofocus...

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johnznyc
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Re: Samsung could kill the competition in 2013
In reply to Ariston, Mar 5, 2013

Ariston wrote:

it's a double-edge sword. I think that Samsung being an unknown camera maker as of the moment is a good thing because this would make the brand affordable for most people and the best bang for the buck system. DxOmarks even didn't realize the potential of the system not until they tested it. it's an amazing system that is unknown for most consumers and photographers. even camera sellers are not even aware of it's potential. I'd rather have the system not to be number #1 as popularity would mean high demand and which would spell the end of affordability.

Right on.  Right no, in the USA market Samsung is selling the NX20 at $250 discount off its $1099 suggested retail price, thus $849 with the 18-55mm kit zoom.  Unofficially, there seems to be retailer incentives as B&H is selling this kit for $699 and I was able to buy the body and lens separately for $649.

This is a typical Korean market strategy when new products are released.  Right now, in the UK, Samsung has a great sale on NX lenses -- too bad for UK residents only...

At $699 with lens, try to find a better camera.  As I said before, I was drawn to the NX20 for price but overall, I prefer it to my first choice at the time, the NEX-7.

I also purchased a 20mm pancake for $249 -- $100 of retail.  Whatever on my list comes up on sale next (85mm and 45mm primes, 20-50mm compact zoom) I will rush to buy.

Snatch up bodies and lenses as you can.  Prices will go up as popularity increases.

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Jorginho
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Re: I have the same opinion but for much different reasons Re: Samsung kills no one
In reply to tecnoworld, Mar 5, 2013

tecnoworld wrote:

Sorry for the word "kill". It was the emphatic version of "overcome". And I think that, technically speaking, the next gen of nx cameras has all the right cards to do that. Faster focus, faster processing, focus peaking for legacy lenses, smaller raw files, touch and tiltable screen.

Basically this wishlist has been the same ever since Samsung got to the market with their mirrorless system in 2010. They of course have evolved but the others did to and I think: the others evolved much faster.

Suppose your wishes come true finally. They are still well behind because Oly/Panny has splashproof cams, very god 24-70/70-200 splashproof lenses, IBIS is still a very nice thing to have certainly because the 5-axis one does so well in video (and I don't have the OMD) etcetc.

The only thing mFT is missing is CDAF that does Af tracking as good as the Nikon1. Once they have that, the have ticked all boxes for those who think a m43 sensor in terms of DOF is good enough.

Fuji has come and surpassed Samsung in my view. Like Oly they have carved out a very nice niche with that retrostyled cam with excellent lenses and a unique sensor.

I'll stop here.

Samsung needs to do a whole lot more. What you are suggesting is very nice for Samsung owners with a couple of lenses. But for somone who already has another system ora novice user there seems little Samsung has to offer compared to the others.

If just samsung improves the jpg engine and, above all, high iso rendition, it will be difficult, for me, to find any more flaws in the camera. And, imho (since I love fast primes and usually dislike zooms) the lens lineup is just great.

"For me" is the key in your lines here. If I were a new buyer it probable would be a difficult choice between Sony (lenses are a downside though), Fuji (I should forget about zooms than) and m43s (oly, but the CDAF is not good for birding everstill. True RF cam is still not there and not expected).

The price for the nx300 is too high, I agree on that, but I'm also sure it'll be under 500€ (a "right" price for it) before summer.

I think so too because if the improvements are like you mentioned it won't attract too much buyers for that. And the lower price makes the system less profitable...

In the meantime, we'll see if/what Samsung can deliver with nx1100, nx30 and possibly nx-r (which I think will feature a new aps-c sensor rather than a ff one).

Let's see. It is simple: if the bodies will become as good as the lenses, the future will be much better.

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Jorginho
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Re: Samsung could kill the competition in 2013
In reply to johnznyc, Mar 5, 2013

johnznyc wrote:

Ariston wrote:

it's a double-edge sword. I think that Samsung being an unknown camera maker as of the moment is a good thing because this would make the brand affordable for most people and the best bang for the buck system. DxOmarks even didn't realize the potential of the system not until they tested it. it's an amazing system that is unknown for most consumers and photographers. even camera sellers are not even aware of it's potential. I'd rather have the system not to be number #1 as popularity would mean high demand and which would spell the end of affordability.

Right on. Right no, in the USA market Samsung is selling the NX20 at $250 discount off its $1099 suggested retail price, thus $849 with the 18-55mm kit zoom. Unofficially, there seems to be retailer incentives as B&H is selling this kit for $699 and I was able to buy the body and lens separately for $649.

This is a typical Korean market strategy when new products are released. Right now, in the UK, Samsung has a great sale on NX lenses -- too bad for UK residents only...

At $699 with lens, try to find a better camera.

You are buying into a system, not just a camera. If it is just one camera, than you could hop between brands etc. But you buy into a system. Of course it is personal but it does not seem to be the best system out there. I like the IQ of the NX200 and NX20 a lot. Epsecially the low ISO pics are second to none. Really like everything about them. I did not see too many high ISO pics, can't comment on that.

What is better is personal. For some EPL5 is the better cam with better IQ, smaller form factor. Others think Sony NEX5r is better etc. Panasonic G5 can be seen as a better cam. It has an electronic shutter, same IQ etc.

What, according to you, makes the NX20 better than a GH2 or a G5, if we are comparing DSLR styled mirrorless cams? I can't think of some obvious advantages...

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KingDon
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What lens advantage?
In reply to tecnoworld, Mar 6, 2013

If you haven't gotten the memo, Zeiss is making AF lenses for Sony/Fuji mounts. Tamron and Sigma are making more lenses for the E-mount.

If anything, Samsung in 2013 would end up dead last as a system with the weakest lens line-up

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Ariston
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Re: I have the same opinion but for much different reasons Re: Samsung kills no one
In reply to Jorginho, Mar 7, 2013

Jorginho wrote:

Let's see. It is simple: if the bodies will become as good as the lenses, the future will be much better.

I would just like to add something to your statement. if Samsung releases a much better body at much faster pace than the rest, the future would had been better for Samsung since 2010.

my biggest criticism about Samsung is that they have been quite late with their sensor development and has been late with their lens availability as well. I think Samsung only came in with new lenses more than a year (roughly 2 years to be exact) after they came out with their first NX camera. the mirrorless concept and small sturdy body did intrigue me but didn't create enough interest for me to consider getting or investing in the system. the sensor in the NX5 was still very good then and still even good in today's standards. but the problem was that it was still premature and an offshoot design of their 2008 sensor. those 2 factors definitely wouldn't attract anyone at all.

how I got into the NX system is more of a chance encounter rather than real interest in the system. I bought the NX100 + 30mm combo back in an inventory sale selling the combo for $200. the camera was an ugly design if you are going to ask my honest opinion about it but the ergo/UI was great. I bought it as a gift for someone that I end up keeping for myself instead and bought another one for that colleague. I think that Samsung should be thankful to it's 30mm because it was the greatest saving glory/achievement and lifeline for the NX system. it alone virtually saved the system, IMO. without it, I'm not sure where would the NX be right now considering it was the only one lens that the NX have worth considering.

I would say that if Samsung only doubled/tripled their effort with their sensor in 2010, the Sony NEX system would had been playing catch-up instead. imagine if the NX200 sensor came out in 2010, and with proper marketing, that would had made waves across the camera market. right now it is playing catchup with camera development. the lens releases so far are more than satisfactory compared to 2010 and other camera manufacturers recently.

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