MX-1 DxOMark Test Up

Started Feb 28, 2013 | Discussions
Edgar Matias
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Re: Pentax's focus is Japan
In reply to flektogon, Mar 1, 2013

flektogon wrote:

As those P&S cameras no (reasonable) user is going to use at a higher sensitivity than 1600 ISO, they perform completely identically. At least their sensor/processing is the same. Different lens in each of them can make some overall difference however. The problem with Pentax is not that they came with a mediocre camera, but that they came with it too late and they didn’t bring any new, attractive feature. So, why a potential customer would buy a Pentax? The Canon, Nikon, Olympus, Samsung or Panasonic cameras in this class are not worse. And that’s the difference between Pentax and for example Sony. Regardless whether you like or hate Sony, it is the most innovative company without any doubt. The recent Pentax innovations turned out to be rather failures. Yes, the Pentax fans buy them, but only due to a heavy discount.

I think that's a rather unfair summary of the situation.

All of those companies place bets on new products and new technology, according to their main base of customers. For Pentax, that main base is Japan. Sales in the rest of the world are gravy for them.

The Pentax Q has been very successful in Japan, and I expect the MX-1 will be very successful there too.

No zoom lens of the calibre of that on the MX-1 exists for the Q mount, so I expect Pentax is thinking they can sell the MX-1 to the hordes of Q owners in Japan who want such a lens. A Pentax Q with 01 Standard Prime + 06 Telephoto Zoom + MX-1 makes a pretty nice (and tiny) 2-camera kit, for people who don't care too much about shallow DOF effects.

If you look at it from that perspective, it was almost inevitable that they would release an MX-1-ish camera. It doesn't matter that it's late, if they have customers who will buy it.

Having said that, they obviously don't think EVF or flash accessory ports are that important. I'm sure they have customer data indicating as much.

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flektogon
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Re: Pentax's focus is Japan
In reply to Edgar Matias, Mar 1, 2013

Edgar Matias wrote:

I think that's a rather unfair summary of the situation.

All of those companies place bets on new products and new technology, according to their main base of customers. For Pentax, that main base is Japan. Sales in the rest of the world are gravy for them.

The Pentax Q has been very successful in Japan, and I expect the MX-1 will be very successful there too.

Having said that, they obviously don't think EVF or flash accessory ports are that important. I'm sure they have customer data indicating as much.

O.K.  Let me then paraphrase my thoughts. While Pentax MX-1 is as good camera as for example Panasonic LX-7, or Olympus ZX-2, or Canon G-15, or …, there is nothing unique about it, why any, brand-wise unbiased potential customer would prefer it. So, if there are for example 12 cameras (in this class) currently on the market, I do not see any reason why the Pentax market share should be higher (or lower) than 1/12. And as a Pentax fan myself I am disappointed, as I expected Pentax to come finally with something unique. So, the only unique Pentax camera remains the Q series, which I am not interested in.

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NickPix
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Re: MX-1 - Just Buy It
In reply to flektogon, Mar 1, 2013

Well, this thread started well, and then turned into a Sony/Fujifilm type thread.

Look, the MX-1 is a GREAT camera - had mine a few weeks now, best compact I've had.

It's not an RX100 - I'm thankful, as the sensor on that, although great, is restricted by a very compromised lens - FOR MY USES

It's not an X-10/20 - but I've a 1955 Kiev if I want sheer weight (although the Kiev has a MUCH better OVF than an X-10, if it matters ...but not to me ) - FOR MY USES

Bottom line - some of you would do well to just buy an MX-1 & use it ...it really is exceptional ...

Good luck !

Nick

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xue24
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Re: MX-1 DxOMark Test Up
In reply to flektogon, Mar 2, 2013

this is a thread discussing about mx-1 and of course compare pros and cons of other camera would be welcome and helpful for anyone who is interested. all you wrote is Pentax offer nothing new, their innovations just failure, all other brands got better product and only Pentax fans will buy their product. there's not a word of discussion about mx-1 and why would i have an attitude problem when i point out this may not be the right place for you. and now then you only said the mx-1 got no vf and you are going for x20.  ok, if this makes me the one having attitude, well be it.

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Raist3d
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What really surprises me is that the Q
In reply to marike6, Mar 2, 2013

Is virtually almost the same as the mx-1.  I was expecting the mx-1 to have a somewhat significant better color sensitivity   Once again says a lot for how efficient the Q sensor is.

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Edgar Matias
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Re: What really surprises me is that the Q
In reply to Raist3d, Mar 2, 2013

Raist3d wrote:

Is virtually almost the same as the mx-1. I was expecting the mx-1 to have a somewhat significant better color sensitivity Once again says a lot for how efficient the Q sensor is.

That won't change until Sony (or Toshiba) release a better sensor. Give it another year or two.

Add few more high grade lenses for the Q mount and Pentax will have a really nice, small, and relatively affordable, small-sensor camera system. A macro and a fast portrait lens would do it for me.

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Edgar Matias
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Re: Pentax's focus is Japan
In reply to flektogon, Mar 2, 2013

flektogon wrote:

Edgar Matias wrote:

I think that's a rather unfair summary of the situation.

All of those companies place bets on new products and new technology, according to their main base of customers. For Pentax, that main base is Japan. Sales in the rest of the world are gravy for them.

The Pentax Q has been very successful in Japan, and I expect the MX-1 will be very successful there too.

Having said that, they obviously don't think EVF or flash accessory ports are that important. I'm sure they have customer data indicating as much.

O.K. Let me then paraphrase my thoughts. While Pentax MX-1 is as good camera as for example Panasonic LX-7, or Olympus ZX-2, or Canon G-15, or …, there is nothing unique about it, why any, brand-wise unbiased potential customer would prefer it. So, if there are for example 12 cameras (in this class) currently on the market, I do not see any reason why the Pentax market share should be higher (or lower) than 1/12.

Perhaps today, but the fast-zoom small-sensor category will probably come under increasing threat by 1" sensor cameras. If Panasonic and/or Olympus move to 1" in search of bigger margins, that's less competition for Pentax. And they have all those Q customers who will be more loyal to small sensor cameras.

And as a Pentax fan myself I am disappointed, as I expected Pentax to come finally with something unique. So, the only unique Pentax camera remains the Q series, which I am not interested in.

Give them some time. Pentax and Ricoh have a pretty good hand to play. There will likely be a GRDV, and I expect it would have at least a 1" sensor in.

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marike6
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Re: Pentax's focus is Japan
In reply to flektogon, Mar 2, 2013

flektogon wrote:

While Pentax MX-1 is as good camera as for example Panasonic LX-7, or Olympus ZX-2, or Canon G-15, or …, there is nothing unique about it, why any, brand-wise unbiased potential customer would prefer it.

Retro styling, solid brass goodness.  

The unique features of the MX-1 are the retro styling with top and bottom brass plates, fast max aperture lens at both wide and telephoto ends, and the tilt-able LCD.

The tilt LCD is a feature only the more expensive XZ-2 and somewhat larger P7700 have.  With the G15, Canon removed the articulated LCD, a move that didn't make too many G series fans happy at all.

And it's all about that fantastic lens.  Only the XZ-2 has a similar lens with good fastness at both ends (the LX7 lens only goes to 90mm, and the G15 lens is 140mm, but f2.8).  Having owned the XZ-1, which has a similar lens (some say identical), it's one of the most outstanding lenses over in a compact, as sharp as any I've ever used.

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flektogon
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Re: Pentax's focus is Japan
In reply to marike6, Mar 2, 2013

marike6 wrote:

And it's all about that fantastic lens. Only the XZ-2 has a similar lens with good fastness at both ends (the LX7 lens only goes to 90mm, and the G15 lens is 140mm, but f2.8). Having owned the XZ-1, which has a similar lens (some say identical), it's one of the most outstanding lenses over in a compact, as sharp as any I've ever used.

I remember (from somewhere at the Olympus discussion forum) that that lens, while is perfectly sharp is prone to flare. What’s your experience?

Btw. regarding the brass top/bottom of the Pentax MX-1. Are the owner supposed to sand off the paining to reveal it, or the Pentax service will do that (for a small fee)?

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marike6
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MX-1 has three killer features...
In reply to marike6, Mar 2, 2013

Some here have suggested that the MX-1 doesn't have any unique features vs the competition like the G15, LX7 or XZ-2. IMHO, it's the combination of three features that make the MX-1 a standout:

1) Retro design with top/bottom brass plate. Perhaps Fujifilm did the retro thing first, but none of the above cameras have the retro charm of the MX-1. The LX7 is a nice looking camera, but the G15 and XZ-2 are sort of bland in terms of looks.

2) Lens, lens, lens. It's all about optics, and the MX-1's killer feature is the lens. It has a fast max aperture at both wide and telephoto and it's extremely sharp across the frame with no soft border or corners (see shot below from PopPhoto). Most ILC and DSLR kit lenses are f3.5-5.6. Such a fast zoom lens (28-112 f/1.8-2.5 with SR built into the body) simply doesn't exist on larger format cameras.

3) Tilt-able LCD - like the XZ-2 and P7700, the MX-1 offers a tilt-able LCD. This feature is huge for macro shooters, and with spring coming is one reason the MX-1 appeals to me. Fixed LCD cameras are back breakers for low to the ground work. Overhead shots with a fixed LCD? Forget it. It's just point and that you're subject is somewhere in the frame. The LCD is one of the main reasons I'm interested in the MX-1.

The zoom is tack sharp from border to border. And the fast max aperture coupled with the excellent high ISO ability makes the MX-1 tough to beat.

Edge to edge sharpness

Like the Ricoh GRD, I'm thinking the MX-1 is going to be an excellent shooter for street photography where the tilt LCD should also be useful for staying discrete.

Like the Camera Store MX-1 review mentioned in it's comparison against the G15, the MX-1's image doesn't get soft at high settings like the below image which look pretty crisp for an ISO 1600 JPEG (the DNG file will look even better). Don't know why PopPhoto is shooting ISO 1600 in daylight, but that's another topic.

And for macro photography, an area small sensor cameras with extremely close focus ability and tons of DOF excel, the MX-1 seems to do a great job. Low-angle macro shots like below couldn't be easier with an articulated or tilt-able LCD.

Anyway, for many, myself included, it's a combination of the lens, LCD, retro goodness, and Pentax's excellent Control Panel that make the MX-1 a great choice over some of the other more plain cameras G15 and XZ-2.

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rusticus
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Re: MX-1 DxOMark Test Up, and? K-01, 40mm XS for 360 Dollar
In reply to marike6, Mar 2, 2013

is certainly a good camera, but at present you can buy a K-01 with 40mm f2.8 XS for $ 360 -
So why should anyone buy an MX-1?

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photocat2007
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Re: MX-1 DxOMark Test Up, and? K-01, 40mm XS for 360 Dollar
In reply to rusticus, Mar 2, 2013

rusticus wrote:

is certainly a good camera, but at present you can buy a K-01 with 40mm f2.8 XS for $ 360 -
So why should anyone buy an MX-1?

Size.  Weight.  Tiltable LCD. Flexibility of a zoom lens (28mm - 112mm equiv) without having to change / carry lenses.  Typical reasons anyone would prefer a p&s over a camera with interchangeable lenses, be it mirrorless or dslr.

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Raist3d
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Re: What really surprises me is that the Q
In reply to Edgar Matias, Mar 2, 2013

Edgar Matias wrote:

Raist3d wrote:

Is virtually almost the same as the mx-1. I was expecting the mx-1 to have a somewhat significant better color sensitivity Once again says a lot for how efficient the Q sensor is.

That won't change until Sony (or Toshiba) release a better sensor. Give it another year or two.

Well I thought the MX-1/XZ-2/Nikon whatever latest, all included a new Sony sensor.

Add few more high grade lenses for the Q mount and Pentax will have a really nice, small, and relatively affordable, small-sensor camera system. A macro and a fast portrait lens would do it for me.

I think you can have a portrait lens now in the 06, but would be nice if the upcoming telephoto macro was really fast so you could get a nice bokeh at the more or less 90mm equivalent focal length it is supposed to come out with. Maybe an F1.2? Would be great.

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Raist3d
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Re: MX-1 has three killer features...
In reply to marike6, Mar 2, 2013

marike6 wrote:

Some here have suggested that the MX-1 doesn't have any unique features vs the competition like the G15, LX7 or XZ-2. IMHO, it's the combination of three features that make the MX-1 a standout:

1) Retro design with top/bottom brass plate. Perhaps Fujifilm did the retro thing first, but none of the above cameras have the retro charm of the MX-1. The LX7 is a nice looking camera, but the G15 and XZ-2 are sort of bland in terms of looks.

Hmm I personally wouldn't call those bland. I think all look unique in their own ways (all the ones you mentioned).  The MX-1 brass is for sure part of its unique selling proposition.

2) Lens, lens, lens. It's all about optics, and the MX-1's killer feature is the lens. It has a fast max aperture at both wide and telephoto and it's extremely sharp across the frame with no soft border or corners (see shot below from PopPhoto). Most ILC and DSLR kit lenses are f3.5-5.6. Such a fast zoom lens (28-112 f/1.8-2.5 with SR built into the body) simply doesn't exist on larger format cameras.

Well, yeah, but the LX7 and XZ-2 both have pretty good lenses. How does it stand out from them here?

3) Tilt-able LCD - like the XZ-2 and P7700, the MX-1 offers a tilt-able LCD. This feature is huge for macro shooters, and with spring coming is one reason the MX-1 appeals to me. Fixed LCD cameras are back breakers for low to the ground work. Overhead shots with a fixed LCD? Forget it. It's just point and that you're subject is somewhere in the frame. The LCD is one of the main reasons I'm interested in the MX-1.

But as you said, "like the..."   So that's the thing- what unique things the MX-1 has vs the competition. The competition is more really the XZ-2, LX7, RX100, P7700, G15.

Don't get me wrong- the MX-1 seems quite capable. But if you are referring to the question "what new does it bring to the table" then a lot of what you mention is precisely the kind of stuff already being done.

Now to me personally, I think one big win of the MX-1 is the interface/ergonomics. I will take the Pentax interface/UI/menu/ergonomics over the other cameras any day.  It's really better thought out and those cameras who have the "dial wheel+4button cross" "Canon Powershot wheel of death" as I call it :-), annoy me pretty quick.

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marike6
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Re: MX-1 DxOMark Test Up, and? K-01, 40mm XS for 360 Dollar
In reply to rusticus, Mar 2, 2013

rusticus wrote:

is certainly a good camera, but at present you can buy a K-01 with 40mm f2.8 XS for $ 360 -
So why should anyone buy an MX-1?

Isn't the answer obvious?  Because they don't want a system camera.  Say I'm a Nikon or Canon DSLR user, why would I want a K-01 w/ 40 2.8 pancake?

Besides, people don't shop just to get bargains or low prices. Most buy based on what camera would help make their photography better or what camera would fill a specific need or role, i.e. travel camera, street photography, compact, etc.  

Personally, I'd be happy to shoot with a K-01, but 60mm is not the best focal length for general photography. And since I don't have any Pentax glass, no matter how good the IQ is, a K-01 makes zero sense for me.

A single focal length camera like the X100 does make sense for me.  A K-01, not so much.  But I have thought about picking one up.

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Edgar Matias
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Re: What really surprises me is that the Q
In reply to Raist3d, Mar 3, 2013

Raist3d wrote:

Edgar Matias wrote:

Raist3d wrote:

Is virtually almost the same as the mx-1. I was expecting the mx-1 to have a somewhat significant better color sensitivity Once again says a lot for how efficient the Q sensor is.

That won't change until Sony (or Toshiba) release a better sensor. Give it another year or two.

Well I thought the MX-1/XZ-2/Nikon whatever latest, all included a new Sony sensor.

I believe they all use the same generation of sensor as the Pentax Q -- or perhaps even a generation behind. As you can see below, the Q sensor has the highest DxOMark score per unit area of any of the sensors currently available (orange line), beating even the RX100 sensor. Until Sony scales that tech up to larger sizes, you probably won't see a change.

Source:  http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/dxomark_sensor_for_benchmarking_cameras2.shtml

Add few more high grade lenses for the Q mount and Pentax will have a really nice, small, and relatively affordable, small-sensor camera system. A macro and a fast portrait lens would do it for me.

I think you can have a portrait lens now in the 06, but would be nice if the upcoming telephoto macro was really fast so you could get a nice bokeh at the more or less 90mm equivalent focal length it is supposed to come out with. Maybe an F1.2? Would be great.

I haven't used the 06, so I don't know. They didn't have it on display in the Pentax booth at CES, so I didn't get to try it. All that money spent on booth real estate, and no one at Pentax thought to show the most interesting lens they have for the Q. Go figure.

Anyway, I agree that a fast macro would be great, but macro lenses are rarely fast. They usually come in at f/2.8 or slower.

An 18mm f/1.2 (100mm-e) would be a perfect portrait lens for the Q, but something like a 20mm f/1.7, or a 23mm f/2 (like on the X100) would also be good, and easier to make (and cheaper). If it's a little longer, it can be slower and still deliver the goods.

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Raist3d
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Re: What really surprises me is that the Q
In reply to Edgar Matias, Mar 3, 2013

Edgar Matias wrote:

Raist3d wrote:

Edgar Matias wrote:

Raist3d wrote:

Is virtually almost the same as the mx-1. I was expecting the mx-1 to have a somewhat significant better color sensitivity Once again says a lot for how efficient the Q sensor is.

That won't change until Sony (or Toshiba) release a better sensor. Give it another year or two.

Well I thought the MX-1/XZ-2/Nikon whatever latest, all included a new Sony sensor.

I believe they all use the same generation of sensor as the Pentax Q -- or perhaps even a generation behind. As you can see below, the Q sensor has the highest DxOMark score per unit area of any of the sensors currently available (orange line), beating even the RX100 sensor. Until Sony scales that tech up to larger sizes, you probably won't see a change.

Hmm.. the RX100 sensor came after the Q's. So did this new batch of 1/1.7''s. So I dunno.

Source: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/essays/dxomark_sensor_for_benchmarking_cameras2.shtml

Add few more high grade lenses for the Q mount and Pentax will have a really nice, small, and relatively affordable, small-sensor camera system. A macro and a fast portrait lens would do it for me.

I think you can have a portrait lens now in the 06, but would be nice if the upcoming telephoto macro was really fast so you could get a nice bokeh at the more or less 90mm equivalent focal length it is supposed to come out with. Maybe an F1.2? Would be great.

I haven't used the 06, so I don't know. They didn't have it on display in the Pentax booth at CES, so I didn't get to try it. All that money spent on booth real estate, and no one at Pentax thought to show the most interesting lens they have for the Q. Go figure.

Anyway, I agree that a fast macro would be great, but macro lenses are rarely fast. They usually come in at f/2.8 or slower.

An 18mm f/1.2 (100mm-e) would be a perfect portrait lens for the Q, but something like a 20mm f/1.7, or a 23mm f/2 (like on the X100) would also be good, and easier to make (and cheaper). If it's a little longer, it can be slower and still deliver the goods.

Well FWIW, here's the 06 doing a portrait. I could have done even shallower DOF if I stepped back and zoomed in more but it was a very "on the moment shot."

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Edgar Matias
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Re: What really surprises me is that the Q
In reply to Raist3d, Mar 3, 2013

Raist3d wrote:

Well FWIW, here's the 06 doing a portrait. I could have done even shallower DOF if I stepped back and zoomed in more but it was a very "on the moment shot."

Pretty good.

It's tightly framed, so I expect you'd lose a lot of the background blur if it were shot as more of an environmental portrait.

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Before I forget... thanks...
In reply to marike6, Mar 3, 2013

for linking to the DXo results.  That was pretty fast! (of them to measure/etc.).

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Re: What really surprises me is that the Q
In reply to Edgar Matias, Mar 3, 2013

Edgar Matias wrote:

Raist3d wrote:

Well FWIW, here's the 06 doing a portrait. I could have done even shallower DOF if I stepped back and zoomed in more but it was a very "on the moment shot."

Pretty good.

It's tightly framed, so I expect you'd lose a lot of the background blur if it were shot as more of an environmental portrait.

To be clear: the DOF could have been made much shorter, but yes, if you were doing an environment portrait- depending the place and how much of the environment you are going to set in then it would be an issue, though here's an example of an environment portrait I guess (or closer to that- also note it's F3.2 and not F2.8 which would give a tad more bokeh):

Here's another tighter portrait but more shallower DOF:

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